Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardragon

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Andros123
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Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardragon

#1 Post by Andros123 »

I can only see this topic discussed with a frostheart instead of the flamespyre, which I think is a very different and actually inferior build.

The starting point for this discussion will be to look at a specific type of build, and from there discuss which one is best. I feel it only makes sense to tailor the discussion to some kind of list, since none of the lord choices are better than the other in absolute terms.

The list under consideration would be something like (2400):
- lord
2xmages with high magic on steeds
2x nobles on barded steeds. One with the banner of the world dragon
14 helms
2x10 archers
2x5 reavers
4xbolth throwers
1 frostheart phoenix
1 eagle

So a monster lord, supported with a silverhelm bus, a frostheart and boltthrowers.

I just finished reading Axiem's battle blog, where he is touching on this issue, and thought I will take the topic out here. Great blog btw - go check it out if you haven't read it!

Anyway, I can imagine a lot of you would rather have a frostheart instead of a flamespyre as a mount. Here is why I love a mounted flamespyre over a frostheart:
- Flaming attacks - just great to have in there
- Wake of fire rule - Amazing ability. You can cause damage and at the same time position yourself to threat certain enemy units. Further it synergies very well with walk between worlds in high magic.
- Good chance on coming back if it dies. However the phoenix has to be the one that dies. If the annointed dies first, it only comes back on a 6 (shh don't tell this to our enemies;)).
- With this setup you allready have a frostheart, so another one, doesn't add any flexibility.
- That extra attack with extra strength is not going to make a huge impact imo. It is not meant to be the one model that destroys units all be himself.


Finally my reasons for taking a mounted flamespyre over a dragon:
- It is cheaper. Can bring you that extra bolt thrower/eagle into your list.
- Again those extra attacks and high strength is not that game changing in my mind. Yes there are some units you can engage, but that margin is really small. With the annointed having the giant blade, its combat abilities are fairly good.
- Ward saves. Ohh the ward saves. I'm also giving my annointed a ring of fury, so for some turns he will have a 3++ and a 4++ for the bird.
- immune to flaming attacks. Very good with all the flaming artillery around.
- Again it can come back! Making it hard to get points from.

I tried the list with a moon dragon recently, and I also found it very powerful. The whole army is just so mobile and can shoot chaff off fairly easy. Also having a silverhelm bus with double soul Q (with all the elves out there) is amazing.

When I first saw the flamespyre I just completely ruled it out as being to weak. I still think it is bad when not mounted, however the mounted version has really started to grow on me so I'm very curious to what you guys think.
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John Rainbow
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#2 Post by John Rainbow »

You also miss the fact that when the bird comes back you get to both move it and face any direction before your next turn starts. This is incredibly powerful.
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#3 Post by mcmulligan »

I don't outright disagree with you, as you can certainly make anything viable if you build a list around it, but the Flamespyre is an inferior choice to a Frostheart or a dragon in most uses.

1) Frostheart is stronger, tougher (both in stats, armour, and from the special abilities), confers EXTREMELY useful in combat bonuses from the frost aura that synergizes amazingly with our troops
2) Flamespyre only uses its abilities when a) its dead and b) when its out of combat flying over units, either way, to make use of it, you have a several hundred point model not being used in combat, in which case, why even put a lord on it? Also, no real synergy with anything else in the army (certainly not in the list you've put forward)
3) Dragon has a breath attack (also flaming) that can be used in or out of combat, stronger, tougher
4) Your point on the ward save is equally valid on a frostheart as it is on a flamespyre

You mentioned that since you take a Frostheart unmounted, that there's no benefit from the second Frostheart. However, the redundancy of 2 is great, especially for those times when a cannon takes out one of them in the first round or two. Also, as you said, a flamespyre really isn't a threat to anything in combat, whereas a Frostheart is. Having 2 frost hearts creates 2 threats that the enemy has to account for, when the flamespyre is at best an annoyance usually.

In your list, you only have 1 combat capable unit, and thats the helm bus (maybe 2 if you consider a lone frostheart). A dragon or frostheart with a character would give you a second combat capable unit, which the flamespyre doesn't give you (since its so weak in combat, you're likely losing to static res, especially with an annointed only contributing 3 attacks).

One last point, your helm bus is going to be weak without a cav prince in it. One noble with BotWD makes him a wet noodle (either you make him "killy" with a halberd/great weapon and then a weak armour save, or you give him a decent armour save and at best a lance) and the other noble can at best do 3 S6 attacks (where a prince could do 4 S7 attacks). Also, either your mages or nobles are going to be in the front rank, so your bus probably only has 1 good charge in it for the game before you've lost at least a character or two, and possibly the BotWD.
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#4 Post by Curu Olannon »

Having played the Star Dragon quite a bit recently, I can tell you that these 2 lists function completely differently. The Star Dragon is about setting up big charges and win big combats while the big baddie can on its own threaten entire flanks and formations. The Flamespyre on the other hand operates more as a support unit, granting it flexibility and making the list play a style people don`t expect. ITP, ward saves and MR2 enable it to perform such a role reliably, with the Giant Blade helping the Anointed actually do something for the 500-odd points you are paying for him. The big deal about the Flamespyre is obviously Wake of Fire and Phoenix Reborn, both of which are extremely versatile and dangerous to ignore. With the former not caring about rank bonus but actual ranks, it is devastating to perform tricks like congas etc against it as it completely annihilates them. It`s also worth noting that while the Flamespyre is significant weaker than the Frostheart in terms of sheer combat power, it thunderstomps Elves and Skinks on 2+ just the same ;)

@mcmulligan - Have you followed Furion`s ETC experience?
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mcmulligan
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#5 Post by mcmulligan »

I haven't, and I'm feeling like I should check it out.

Granted, I'm generally talking in terms of a non-comped environment when comparing things, and ETC will have different compositions than uncomped. Possibly less deathstars, double terrorgheist, empire mounted circus, etc, in ETC than what I see.

My experience with the flamespyre is that the lower T profile and lack of armour save makes it vulnerable to poison and regular ballistic shooting. And if its mounted and goes down, the rider goes with it (until/if it resurrects). Wake of fire is decent, but usually against other low toughness, low armour armies, like elves and skaven. And I don't disagree with its benefits against those armies (although I still wouldn't take it mounted), I tend to instead look to magic and phoenix guard to deal with those armies.

I don't disagree that they can be useful (ANYTHING can be useful) just comparing it straight up to a frosty or dragon, I'd give the advantage squarely to the other two (as a mount for a combat lord).
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

ETC has more deathstars because of the Look out Sir vs Dwellers etc..
mcmulligan
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#7 Post by mcmulligan »

Explains why nearly every HE list had a cav bus in it, since dwellers was its primary threat.
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#8 Post by teep »

John Rainbow wrote: [...]when the bird comes back you get to both move it and face any direction before your next turn starts. This is incredibly powerful.
This! In my last game against Empire, we saw these guys coming back on a 5 on my opponent's turn. I positioned him so
that he could charge in right away on my turn, which he did, and the Anointed on top slew the Arch Lector general.
Anectodetal as it may be, 'twas a huuuge swing for sure :)

List went something like this:

Anointed on Flamy (GB, TOTS, E.Shield,Crown)

Lvl2 High Talisman of Endurance
Lvl2 High Scroll, MR1, Ironcurse Icon
BSB on Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Dragon Helm, Ogre Blade

17 SH, FC
5 SH, Champ
5 ER, spears

23PG. FC, Razor

Eagle
Frostie
2RBTs

Late game, the Anointed foolishly lost combat against the Helbardiers; in fact, we drew, but since one of these
meanies was packing some trumpet, my general and his terror inspiring mount fled the scene and got trampled to bits.
What happened next? Yup, came back on a 6, full wounds, a bad attitude and all. I'm a fan =D>

Can't say much about the Star Dragon comparison though, lacking experience, but I imagine that Curu's assessment is
sound - they are both different beasts entirely, so to speak ...
Andros123
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#9 Post by Andros123 »

You also miss the fact that when the bird comes back you get to both move it and face any direction before your next turn starts. This is incredibly powerful.
Very true and very powerful. Another good reason for bringing this great looking model:).

@mcmulligan. Thank you for an elaborate and interesting answer to my post. Let's go through it :) :
1) Frostheart is stronger, tougher (both in stats, armour, and from the special abilities), confers EXTREMELY useful in combat bonuses from the frost aura that synergizes amazingly with our troops
Hard to argue against the raw facts here. However my list already has one, which is most of the time right besides the silver helm bus, that really benefits from the -1 strength.
2) Flamespyre only uses its abilities when a) its dead and b) when its out of combat flying over units, either way, to make use of it, you have a several hundred point model not being used in combat, in which case, why even put a lord on it? Also, no real synergy with anything else in the army (certainly not in the list you've put forward)
When you need to hide your monster from cannons, it is pretty nice to burn enemy troops in the process, something a frostheart couldn't do.
The reason for putting a lord on top of the phoenix, is first of all to make it combat effective or maybe just durable. It can't destroy the really tough stuff out there by it self, but 3 s7 (rerollable) + 3 s5 + thunderstump is also not that bad. However having the model come back from the ashes on a 5+ is simply brilliant IMO.
3) Dragon has a breath attack (also flaming) that can be used in or out of combat, stronger, tougher
Yes but only once per game. And it is not always stronger. Both are strength 4 and with units with a lot of ranks, the phoenix can really hurt them.
4) Your point on the ward save is equally valid on a frostheart as it is on a flamespyre

True:).
In your list, you only have 1 combat capable unit, and thats the helm bus (maybe 2 if you consider a lone frostheart). A dragon or frostheart with a character would give you a second combat capable unit, which the flamespyre doesn't give you (since its so weak in combat, you're likely losing to static res, especially with an annointed only contributing 3 attacks).
It might look that way, but this list is not super aggressive. It is not meant to see real combat before the later turns. And if you play this right, you will be the one dictating when the fight is going to happen. Besides high magic is way better, when you are not in combat, so I need some turns out of combat for arcane Unforging, Soul Q and Fiery C to kick in.
Then my hitters can mob up the rest. Or at least that is the plan:)
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#10 Post by Curu Olannon »

You can see this year`s ETC lists here: http://paint-hammer.blogspot.no/2014/07 ... lists.html

As for the popularity of the High Elf Deathtrain, Dwellers is just about the only real threat the list can face. I have played it to some extent myself but frankly grew tired of its one-dimensionality (make no mistake: It is super powerful!). In a team setting like the ETC though, Dwellers is not -that- frequent and can be dodged relatively easily. Note on Dwellers: ETC only provides LoS! for 2 characters vs these spells.

In a no-comp setting I think the viability of the Flamespyre boils down to your meta. Around these parts, 1+ Empire is a common sight and the Flamespyre really struggles here. On the other hand, if you find Elves, VC and LZ more common then I can definitely see its value.

I advice you to check out Furion`s games, mcmulligan. He was the highest scoring player at the ETC this year. Given the calibre of players there, that`s saying something ;)
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#11 Post by mcmulligan »

Thanks Curu, I'll take a look at his progress!
Andros123
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#12 Post by Andros123 »

@Curu
I know you have a lot of experience with the star dragon, and I can see that these two list work very different. I don't have enough experience with using a star dragon myself, but I just feel that there are so many things that can threaten it. Lore of metal, light councils and cannons. The two firsts doesn't even bother the flamespyre and against cannons it has its ward. Their is a really big difference when you are being hit by BS shooting with s4 and s5. That can really hurt the flamespyre. But apart from bolt throwers, I don't see that much long range stuff with that profile.
As a side note, I was thinking of putting the gem of sunfire on the annointed. Imagine flying over unites of elves, men, rats and the like resulting in tons of hits and 2+ to wound!
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#13 Post by Curu Olannon »

The Flamespyre is far from safe from the Light Coven. S7 with forced re-rolls of successful ward saves ensures that it`s wounded almost as much as the Star Dragon, on average. With the Star Dragon having more wounds, I think it`s roughly the same weakness here (obviously the Anointed`s better protected by a mile). Light Covens are hard for monsters almost regardless and I don`t consider the Flamespyre to be an exception.

As for Metal, the glaring weakness is present with the 3+ scaly skin. However I don`t see a lot of metal mages around. There`s the odd Loremaster HE list but these are inherently weak vs the Star Dragon in the first place, more so than what a single Searing Doom can change. I suppose the main army sporting metal is Daemons with Tzeentch Heralds. In this matchup I`m not sure which I prefer as both the SD and the Anointed have their advantages and drawbacks. I do know however that Searing Doom is not usually a big issue in this matchup.

A bigger issue, depending on your comp system, is how much more of a threat Purple Sun is. I2 really doesn`t give the Dragon a whole lot of options when the sun is sent in your direction, whereas I4 (possibly I5 from Winds) is a lot more forgiving if it`s a long Sun (say he needs 8 or 10 to hit for example).

Gem of Sunfire is in my opinion too situational. I think you need to either build him tanky or stubborn, otherwise you´ll often be left with a 500+ point model that has too little tricks up his sleeve.
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#14 Post by pk-ng »

teep wrote: Late game, the Anointed foolishly lost combat against the Helbardiers; in fact, we drew, but since one of these
meanies was packing some trumpet, my general and his terror inspiring mount fled the scene and got trampled to bits.
What happened next? Yup, came back on a 6, full wounds, a bad attitude and all. I'm a fan =D>
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Re: Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix vs. prince on a stardrag

#15 Post by teep »

Thanks for the heads up, my opponent will be happy to learn that :)
By that logic, Dwellers, Final Trans and the like would also be good counters vs Mr Anointed and his pet, correct?
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