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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:06 am 
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Posts: 357
Before I begin, the term 'full-rank' infantry I mentioned in the title refers to an infantry unit with 4 ranks minimum.
It can be any infantry unit from HE army book, but in my case it will be core infantry.

I've been running cavalry heavy lists in 2.5K and 3K games for the past 8 months or so.
During that time my lists have gone through minor changes, but the fundamental structure remains unchanged.
: Two lords(Giant Blade Prince and High Magic Archmage on Steed) with two 10+ model cavalry units supported by bolt throwers, sisters, archers and redirectors.
For example, below is the list I'm running nowadays.

Prince(Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Endurance)
Archmage(Level 4, Elven Steed, Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth) - High Magic

Noble(BSB, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Star Lance, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown, Potion of Foolhardiness)
Mage(Level 2, Dispel Scroll) - Lore of Beasts

14 Archers(Musician)
10 Silver Helms(Shields, Full Command)
5 Silver Helms(Shields, Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)

10 Dragon Princes of Caledor(Full Command, Ogre Blade, Charmed Shield, BotWD)
5 Shadow Warriors

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
9 Sisters of Avelorn

I don't play tournaments often, but instead play individual games with many other players.
Me and other players around me play scenario-based games with randomly generated terrain(albeit without deciding its 'mysterical' properties) and no comps of any kind.

I usually play against VC, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, DoC, and DE, but these are not the only opposing armies since I still come across people using other armies. Skavens, Tomb Kings, Empire, WoC are only few of them.
So basically I tend to spend quite a deal of time devising all-comers list.

And while looking back my 2.5K list, I've been thinking about the need to take at least one full-rank infantry(i.e. infantry unit with 4 ranks minimum). The reason for this is to support cavalry units by helping them break steadfast enemy infantry.
The cavalry will be exploiting enemy flank(with supporting units like chariots, cavalry and monsters), while the infantry marches facing the opposing infantry. If things go well, I can bring my infantry and cavalry to separate facing of the enemy infantry.(e.g. cavalry threatening flank while infantry charges at enemy front)

In my list where I have both core and special heavy cavalry with 10 models, I can only afford to take core infantry to fulfill this role. The most appropriate candidate, IMO, is the archer unit. Spearmen are cheaper, but I have to forfeit the 30" threat range of longbow(which I really appreciate due to abundance of elven redirectors, skinks and other chaff).
Archers are also hitting with 3 ranks and spearmen's 5+ armour save doesn't add much to defence.

However, using other necessary redirectors and silver helms block in addition to 20-model archer unit(minimum) isn't quite easy to accomplish within 625pts core restriction. I can forego reavers and add another rank of archers, sure.
But that would give me less tools for tactical flexibility, which is worth more than additional 5~6 archers.
5-model strong silver helms are something I also appreciate, since they truly shine against armies with good skirmishers and fast cavalry.(Lizardmen, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, etc.) They can also perform suicidal wizard assassination with some degree of durability.

Some of the readers might think 10 silver helm unit in the list above is unnecessary, since I already have dragon princes.
The reason for including another sizeable cavalry unit is primarily for target saturation, especially against dwellers below.
While I can run DP deathstar with this list if I wish, I can also spread characters in multiple, sizeable cavalry units when facing dwellers below. 5~6-model silver helms are too small for such task, I believe.

So right now I'm comparing some options about this issue. To take good size of infantry for supporting infantry, or to such add more redirectors and avoid, interrupt enemy infantry while picking up VP from elsewhere. Or I could just take special infantry instead of DPs, using silver helms as sole mobile hammer, like Seredain's list for example.
The last option however doesn't really suits my taste(big chunk of point in elite being so tardy and slow left me unsatisfactory), so I dismissed it. I would appreciate insights and advice from fellow HE players. Thank you for reading.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:45 am 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Location: Oslo, Norway
Quote:
Can a cavalry list perform well without full-rank infantry?


Yes

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Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:16 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:34 am
Posts: 357
Curu Olannon wrote:
Quote:
Can a cavalry list perform well without full-rank infantry?


Yes


I remember your battle reports using silver helm train of death/high magic.
While dwellers below seems to be the biggest threat, I recall the list working well in hands of a capable player.
Do you mind elaborating further on the issue? I do read your army blog, but not every one of them, and I'm not sure if I remember those correctly.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Location: Oslo, Norway
I have ran a number of cav-oriented builds lately. The first thing to acknowledge with any type of list is that, regardless of your choices, you will have bad matchups. Thus, the Deathtrain will have problems with e.g. Dwellers, whereas infantry HE struggle with Lizardmen for example.

Long story short, steadfast is not that big of a deal. Cavalry can break it often times as well. Crown of Command and innately stubborn units are more of a concern.

For your specific problems, I think simply upping the amount of Helms would largely help solve the issue. As I´ve argued a million times before, I think the Archers are a bit off and their points better spent on more Helms.

In the end though, you need to have a specific reason to include every unit you have in your army and that reason needs to be valid for the army to function well. We can take tons of cavalry, to the point where we get maxed out rank bonus, which means that only super-big units will remain steadfast.

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Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:50 pm
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I have never tried it with High Elves but I have had great success with an all-cavalry dark elf list. I don't see why it wouldn't work with High Elves. Core could be silverhelms and reavers, special you've got chariots and dragon princes and rare you've got phoenixes and eagles.

That said, Dragon Princes are not as powerful as Cold One Knights, Reavers are not as good as Dark Riders, and Lion chariots are a joke compared with the cold one chariots. Also, no warlocks which in my opinion are what really completes the dark elf cavalry army. Of course, you do have the phoenixes which do a lot to even the odds. I'd say try it out and see what you get!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:16 am 
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Hillbilly Carl wrote:
I have never tried it with High Elves but I have had great success with an all-cavalry dark elf list. I don't see why it wouldn't work with High Elves. Core could be silverhelms and reavers, special you've got chariots and dragon princes and rare you've got phoenixes and eagles.

That said, Dragon Princes are not as powerful as Cold One Knights, Reavers are not as good as Dark Riders, and Lion chariots are a joke compared with the cold one chariots. Also, no warlocks which in my opinion are what really completes the dark elf cavalry army. Of course, you do have the phoenixes which do a lot to even the odds. I'd say try it out and see what you get!


lol So... you don't think they can then.

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