Hi!
Not sure if this has been discussed before, but curious what people's thoughts are on reavers vs. silver helms as small core chaff units. I see most lists have at least 2 x 5 reavers, and with good reason. I'm wondering if anyone has used silver helms effectively in a similar role. While you'd lose a bit of manouverability, and all the fast cav advantages, you'd gain a 2+ armor save and higher strength on the charge. I could see small silver helm units doing well against enemy chaff.
I'd summarize my thoughts like this:
Reaver pro's: Cheap, fast cav, option to shoot, ability to vanguard
Reaver con's: Fragile
Helm pro's: High armor save, S5 on charge
Helm con's: Slightly more expensive, less manouverable, susceptibility to lore of metal
Perhaps the best choice would be to use both, and try to maximize the advantages of each.
Any expert tactical insight?
Cav chaff units - Helms vs Reavers
Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters
- IgnobleElf
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:28 am
Cav chaff units - Helms vs Reavers
-Brian McMillen
Chicago, IL USA
Chicago, IL USA
-
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:44 pm
Re: Cav chaff units - Helms vs Reavers
Ahoy Ignoble!
Ggrenic posted a pretty bomb summary of almost every unit in our book taken as a "Chaff" choice.
It's a few posts below this one, take a look. It breaks down Silver Helms and Reavers REALLY well as well as the various roles for chaff, and where units rank in those roles:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=67115
Enjoy!
The discussions after are also extremely good!
Ggrenic posted a pretty bomb summary of almost every unit in our book taken as a "Chaff" choice.
It's a few posts below this one, take a look. It breaks down Silver Helms and Reavers REALLY well as well as the various roles for chaff, and where units rank in those roles:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=67115
Enjoy!
The discussions after are also extremely good!
- Prince of Spires
- Auctor Aeternitatum
- Posts: 8249
- Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
- Location: The city of Spires
Re: Cav chaff units - Helms vs Reavers
It depends a bit on what you want them to achieve, but as far as being chaff, reavers are superior in almost all the ways that matter.
Vanguard means you can drop them almost anywhere in your deployment and still have them in a good position before the game starts. It also makes them the fastest thing in the army T1, with a 30'' range from where you put them down initially.
Fast cavalry is a huge bonus. There is almost no way your opponent can block them from getting where they need to be. Any gap more then 2.5'' or so is enough to let them through. They can change direction on the spot without any issue, and do so multiple times.
Another FC bonus is flee, rally and move. If you do want to flee for some reason instead of holding and just dying, then this is huge. This makes them twice as useful in that situation as SH.
Cost. Chaff is generally there to die. In doing this, it offers board control and forces your opponent to make certain moves. And then 5 points per model, or 7 if you go for the obligatory shields is pretty huge. For 2 units of SH, you can almost get 3 reaver units.
The 2 advantages SH have is 2+ armour and an extra point of S on the charge. I think most things that are afraid of 5 S5 attacks are also afraid of 5 S4 attacks or are on the field for just that purpose, dying. The armour makes a bit of difference. But in most fights where you need them as chaff, the difference is minimal. You can still expect to lose the fight, with no ranks, no banner and a low number of attacks.
The one situation where I think I would pick small units of SH vs reavers is when charging them into a flank in support of another unit. There, a 5+ armour save makes the reavers more a liability then an asset. But that's about it I think.
Rod
Vanguard means you can drop them almost anywhere in your deployment and still have them in a good position before the game starts. It also makes them the fastest thing in the army T1, with a 30'' range from where you put them down initially.
Fast cavalry is a huge bonus. There is almost no way your opponent can block them from getting where they need to be. Any gap more then 2.5'' or so is enough to let them through. They can change direction on the spot without any issue, and do so multiple times.
Another FC bonus is flee, rally and move. If you do want to flee for some reason instead of holding and just dying, then this is huge. This makes them twice as useful in that situation as SH.
Cost. Chaff is generally there to die. In doing this, it offers board control and forces your opponent to make certain moves. And then 5 points per model, or 7 if you go for the obligatory shields is pretty huge. For 2 units of SH, you can almost get 3 reaver units.
The 2 advantages SH have is 2+ armour and an extra point of S on the charge. I think most things that are afraid of 5 S5 attacks are also afraid of 5 S4 attacks or are on the field for just that purpose, dying. The armour makes a bit of difference. But in most fights where you need them as chaff, the difference is minimal. You can still expect to lose the fight, with no ranks, no banner and a low number of attacks.
The one situation where I think I would pick small units of SH vs reavers is when charging them into a flank in support of another unit. There, a 5+ armour save makes the reavers more a liability then an asset. But that's about it I think.
Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!
Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91
Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
PS: Bring cookies!
Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91
Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
Re: Cav chaff units - Helms vs Reavers
When I face armies with scouts/fast cavalry/skirmishers with good shooting, I prefer small unit of silver helms(5-model size) over reavers.
Examples include lizardmen(skinks, chamelons, slamanders), dark elves(shades, dark riders), wood elves(deepwood scouts).
(And i face them regularly nowadays)
Reavers die facing them while accomplishing nothing, whereas silver helms can most of the time wipe them out(or seriously threat them)
and perform duty as sacrificial road-blocker later in mid-game.
Of course, having both 5 reavers and 5 silver helms is desirable. however when this is not possible, I tend to take 5 silver helms instead.
I have other chaffs including shadow warrios and great eagle.
Examples include lizardmen(skinks, chamelons, slamanders), dark elves(shades, dark riders), wood elves(deepwood scouts).
(And i face them regularly nowadays)
Reavers die facing them while accomplishing nothing, whereas silver helms can most of the time wipe them out(or seriously threat them)
and perform duty as sacrificial road-blocker later in mid-game.
Of course, having both 5 reavers and 5 silver helms is desirable. however when this is not possible, I tend to take 5 silver helms instead.
I have other chaffs including shadow warrios and great eagle.