Lothern Sea Helm
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Lothern Sea Helm
Is it ever worth getting him? He seems like a worse version of a Noble and for significantly higher cost. Is Naval Discipline ever worth throwing him into a big unit? I have the model and am thinking of I should just convert him into a BSB on foot, since he seems unplayable as a Sea Helm on foot. Does anyone know of some builds or situations where he is useful?
- Domine Nox
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
I feel he has merit, because the reform on the charge means that if something hits your unit in the flank, you can reform so that your flank is your front. I actually like the idea of the seahelm for supporting certain units. Imagine a large block of infantry that gets hit on the flank by something, then you switch it up so that it's not the flank anymore and you can bring your entire unit to bear.
Situational surely, but it gives you a nice response, allowing you less worry about the units positioning unless they get hit from everywhere.
Situational surely, but it gives you a nice response, allowing you less worry about the units positioning unless they get hit from everywhere.
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
Naval discipline CAN work, and against an unwitting opponent it can be a game winning trap but it will only work once on an opponent. I really want to like this guy, the model is cool, but he's too situational.
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- Green Istari
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
You see the Sea Helm in the armies of some really good players, ETC for example.
You can pull some very clever stuff if you have multiple characters in his unit.
You can pull some very clever stuff if you have multiple characters in his unit.
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- Curu Olannon
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
He is an excellent choice and superior to a noble if you are playing an infantry high elf list. Naval discipline is ridiculously powerful.
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- Prince of Spires
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
I personally think that he's only worth it in certain comps where having a noble would punish your comp score too much.
His equipment choices are ridiculous. Light armour, shield and spear? For a character on foot? With only 50 points of magic items to make something of that, you're going to have enough trouble keeping him alive and actually doing something in combat. I can't think of any combination where this does something. You're probably stuck with armour of caledor and a spear.
As for the ridiculously powerful naval discipline rule, it's both way to situational and has too many conditions to really be considered powerful. Reforming after you end up in combat instead of before makes a huge difference. Get charged on 2 sides and you already can't use it. You can't move something out of combat. And you have to go wider, can't go narrower. You can't even stand and shoot with it.
It's a nice rule against someone who has never seen it before. Or against an inexperienced player who doesn't know what's happening. But against good players it's situational at best. And then 150 points is a lot to pay for that one rule.
Rod
His equipment choices are ridiculous. Light armour, shield and spear? For a character on foot? With only 50 points of magic items to make something of that, you're going to have enough trouble keeping him alive and actually doing something in combat. I can't think of any combination where this does something. You're probably stuck with armour of caledor and a spear.
As for the ridiculously powerful naval discipline rule, it's both way to situational and has too many conditions to really be considered powerful. Reforming after you end up in combat instead of before makes a huge difference. Get charged on 2 sides and you already can't use it. You can't move something out of combat. And you have to go wider, can't go narrower. You can't even stand and shoot with it.
It's a nice rule against someone who has never seen it before. Or against an inexperienced player who doesn't know what's happening. But against good players it's situational at best. And then 150 points is a lot to pay for that one rule.
Rod
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- Curu Olannon
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
You put him in your big, bad unit of <insert choice> and have them go 2 or 3 wide. Their added flexibility from this formation is amazing and you can push them hard with a small frontage (a LOT easier to move around and give LoS/way to your other units) without sacrificing combat potential: If you are charged you reform to the optimal position. Furthermore this allows you to keep your units without steadfast (in the case of Lions, the most obvious choice, this is not that big of a deal) and reform as needed. I have seen many lists with him without a comp system favouring him over a Noble. Grab a Merwyrm Shield and whatever else you fancy and you´re good to go. The sheer threat of Naval Discipline is more protection than a Noble can receive: Our foot characters (barring high magic support) rarely survive much at all and at least Naval Discipline allows you to re-position as needed.
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
Have you also seen said lists do well consistently, and do so against good players? Just because something exist doesn't mean it's good.
You haven't convinced me. A good opponent is only going to charge a big infantry unit, with or without the seahelm, if he knows he can win. That means he will either charge it with something stronger or with multiple units.
If he charges you with multiple units, then you likely can't use the Naval Discipline rule, since you can't combat reform when you're engaged on multiple fronts. Which means that you have actually fallen into you own trap, since you chose a sub-optimal formation betting that you could reform to a better one. Any cheap sacrificial unit here will do. Charge an eagle into the front of the unit for instance is enough. You sacrifice 50 points to make 150 points useless and get the unit in the flank a favorable combat.
Then the other scenario, charging in something stronger. A stronger unit is hardly going to care if you combat reform or not. If it would be able to beat you by charging you head on, it is also able to beat you by charging your flank and have you reform so it is your front. As said, you can't get models out of combat, so you can't use it to minimize attacks you receive. You can only give your opponent more to kill. And that more to kill includes a 5+ 4++ character worth 115 points.
And then there is the cost. If you put him in a stubborn unit of WL, then those 115 points of character can also get you about 9 extra lions. Since you're stubborn, you'll stick around if you lose anyway and can then combat reform after the combat. It will require the same LD roll. You are less efficient in 1 round of combat, but you have 9 extra S6 attack vs 2 S4 attacks.
Rod
You haven't convinced me. A good opponent is only going to charge a big infantry unit, with or without the seahelm, if he knows he can win. That means he will either charge it with something stronger or with multiple units.
If he charges you with multiple units, then you likely can't use the Naval Discipline rule, since you can't combat reform when you're engaged on multiple fronts. Which means that you have actually fallen into you own trap, since you chose a sub-optimal formation betting that you could reform to a better one. Any cheap sacrificial unit here will do. Charge an eagle into the front of the unit for instance is enough. You sacrifice 50 points to make 150 points useless and get the unit in the flank a favorable combat.
Then the other scenario, charging in something stronger. A stronger unit is hardly going to care if you combat reform or not. If it would be able to beat you by charging you head on, it is also able to beat you by charging your flank and have you reform so it is your front. As said, you can't get models out of combat, so you can't use it to minimize attacks you receive. You can only give your opponent more to kill. And that more to kill includes a 5+ 4++ character worth 115 points.
And then there is the cost. If you put him in a stubborn unit of WL, then those 115 points of character can also get you about 9 extra lions. Since you're stubborn, you'll stick around if you lose anyway and can then combat reform after the combat. It will require the same LD roll. You are less efficient in 1 round of combat, but you have 9 extra S6 attack vs 2 S4 attacks.
Rod
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- Curu Olannon
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
Yes. The Sea Helm was used in the second highest-scoring HE ETC list last year. Same list also did very well in an ETC singles event in Sweden and won a 4-man team tournament. In Norway, a variant of the list won a nearly uncomped tournament. Both these lists were Coven of Light lists with Lions as the big threat. Skilled players were present in all environments, obviously True, being charged on multiple facings means you fall into your own trap, but an enemy often cannot simply refuse to charge: The alternative then is to have the Sea Helm`s unit reform to the optimal position in his next turn and then charge you (I did this in my last BR, see link in signature). It`s a catch22 for your opponent.
Norwegian Masters will see me bring the Sea Helm in a similar manner and I am 90% sure the best Norwegian HE player will do the same. It remains to be seen how well we`ll do of course.
It`s important to remember that the effective cost of a Sea Helm is 30 points. You are going to have a Noble BSB anyway, so the upgrade is just the difference in points. Again, I`m talking about infantry-oriented builds here and preferably the ones with significant ranged presence to force an opponent`s hand so that he`ll play into the Sea Helm`s strengths.
Norwegian Masters will see me bring the Sea Helm in a similar manner and I am 90% sure the best Norwegian HE player will do the same. It remains to be seen how well we`ll do of course.
It`s important to remember that the effective cost of a Sea Helm is 30 points. You are going to have a Noble BSB anyway, so the upgrade is just the difference in points. Again, I`m talking about infantry-oriented builds here and preferably the ones with significant ranged presence to force an opponent`s hand so that he`ll play into the Sea Helm`s strengths.
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
Maybe we need a seahelm tactica?
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
I'd like to second that...
I feel he's a very underwhelmed and written-off Hero choice because of everything that's being mentioned. Curu brings up some very interesting arguments and I'd love to see more if he's up to it? (SAY YES!!)
I feel he's a very underwhelmed and written-off Hero choice because of everything that's being mentioned. Curu brings up some very interesting arguments and I'd love to see more if he's up to it? (SAY YES!!)
Re: Lothern Sea Helm
sea helm can be bomb, it can also be totally useless.
it all depends on the number of units, throw away units or in general potential units left that can charge you. if you are facing many throw away units that you cant get rid off then sea helm will not work.
it all depends on the number of units, throw away units or in general potential units left that can charge you. if you are facing many throw away units that you cant get rid off then sea helm will not work.
Re: Lothern Sea Helm
What about a seahelm on a skycutter with shield of the merwyrm and reaver bow and BSB? He can hang back shoot and soak damage with his ward save against missile fire while providing the ld reroll around him. When the enemy gets close and is probably wittled down a bit you charge in and kill them off with impact hits?
- Curu Olannon
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
And when he fails his ward, what then?Mylle wrote:What about a seahelm on a skycutter with shield of the merwyrm and reaver bow and BSB? He can hang back shoot and soak damage with his ward save against missile fire while providing the ld reroll around him. When the enemy gets close and is probably wittled down a bit you charge in and kill them off with impact hits?
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
He dies when no wounds are left, like every other hero?
- Curu Olannon
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
Exactly. Hence, it`s better not to put him in harm`s way in the first place
As for a Sea Helm tactica I struggle to see how you would go about creating such a thread. Of course you could document typical uses etc but I fear it would be rather short: After all the ability is fairly straight-forward to use. I could be wrong as I don`t usually play foot-based High Elves.
As for a Sea Helm tactica I struggle to see how you would go about creating such a thread. Of course you could document typical uses etc but I fear it would be rather short: After all the ability is fairly straight-forward to use. I could be wrong as I don`t usually play foot-based High Elves.
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
Having read through this topic I would like to add some comments which I hope we can discuss more.
What I can read people don't like the sea helm for the following reasons:
1. He is very fragile and only stands with 2 attacks instead of the nobles 3
2. He is more expensive
3. His ability is too situational and a good opponent will never fall into this "trap".
I like the guy, but as for so many things in our book, you have to make your list so it fits him. Against all the fluff - don't put him in with the seaguard. You want your 30 guys in 3 ranks so they can shoot, but when combat happens you can only combat reform so no models have been put out of combat. This has also been pointed out numerous times before. So it only really makes sense to put him in a unit, that likes to get MORE models into combat. I now start to think about our swordmaster or maybe white lions.
As for the first 3 arguments against him:
1. Well having 2 or 3 attacks doesn't really matter. You never rely on you noble BSB to do your damage do you? Yes he is fragile, but put him in a unit with a lvl. 4 mage and give him the 4+ ward shield or 2+ armour. If you also put the annointed in there, he should be relatively safe.
2. I will gladely pay those extra few points for not having to care about stuff slamming into my flank/rear. There is really not that many units out there who can tackle 25 swordmasters head on. Especially not with a 5+ ward from high magic.
3. Maybe a good opponent will not attack the flank of your unit knowing, that you will just reform and crush him. So those extra points for the sea helm just prevented those knights from slamming into your rear. And what about a Chimera who can see you flank. Do you think he wants to charge now that he knows all those s5 attacks coming his way first?
People are pointing to the fact that if the unit get's charged from both sides, his ability is useless. Okay fair enough, but I guess the battle is already going south if your opponent is able to do this. We have reavers and eagles to prevent this stuff from happening.
So I can really see this guy working in the right unit. I really love swordmasters, but no matter how much I hate to admit it, I find them inferior to our other elites. However, maybe with a lvl. 4 high arcmage and the sea helm (maybe also the annointed) they might actually look at a comeback! It is just amazing to be able to completely max out the number of models in close combat, when talking swordmasters. If you can reform, let say, seven wide you get an amazing 29(with champion) s5 attacks
What I can read people don't like the sea helm for the following reasons:
1. He is very fragile and only stands with 2 attacks instead of the nobles 3
2. He is more expensive
3. His ability is too situational and a good opponent will never fall into this "trap".
I like the guy, but as for so many things in our book, you have to make your list so it fits him. Against all the fluff - don't put him in with the seaguard. You want your 30 guys in 3 ranks so they can shoot, but when combat happens you can only combat reform so no models have been put out of combat. This has also been pointed out numerous times before. So it only really makes sense to put him in a unit, that likes to get MORE models into combat. I now start to think about our swordmaster or maybe white lions.
As for the first 3 arguments against him:
1. Well having 2 or 3 attacks doesn't really matter. You never rely on you noble BSB to do your damage do you? Yes he is fragile, but put him in a unit with a lvl. 4 mage and give him the 4+ ward shield or 2+ armour. If you also put the annointed in there, he should be relatively safe.
2. I will gladely pay those extra few points for not having to care about stuff slamming into my flank/rear. There is really not that many units out there who can tackle 25 swordmasters head on. Especially not with a 5+ ward from high magic.
3. Maybe a good opponent will not attack the flank of your unit knowing, that you will just reform and crush him. So those extra points for the sea helm just prevented those knights from slamming into your rear. And what about a Chimera who can see you flank. Do you think he wants to charge now that he knows all those s5 attacks coming his way first?
People are pointing to the fact that if the unit get's charged from both sides, his ability is useless. Okay fair enough, but I guess the battle is already going south if your opponent is able to do this. We have reavers and eagles to prevent this stuff from happening.
So I can really see this guy working in the right unit. I really love swordmasters, but no matter how much I hate to admit it, I find them inferior to our other elites. However, maybe with a lvl. 4 high arcmage and the sea helm (maybe also the annointed) they might actually look at a comeback! It is just amazing to be able to completely max out the number of models in close combat, when talking swordmasters. If you can reform, let say, seven wide you get an amazing 29(with champion) s5 attacks
- Curu Olannon
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
I have a concept list revolving around a non-BSB Sea Helm. Will post soon and playtest in 2-3 weeks, hopefully
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
Looking forward to your reports Curu . I hope to put up some reports myself about the sea helm + swordmaster combo.I have a concept list revolving around a non-BSB Sea Helm. Will post soon and playtest in 2-3 weeks, hopefully
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- Green Istari
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
Why not take two?
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Re: Lothern Sea Helm
Shield of the Merwyrm is wasted on him, as you can't parry whilst mounted.Mylle wrote:What about a seahelm on a skycutter with shield of the merwyrm and reaver bow and BSB? He can hang back shoot and soak damage with his ward save against missile fire while providing the ld reroll around him. When the enemy gets close and is probably wittled down a bit you charge in and kill them off with impact hits?
thelordcal wrote:Or he uses his big a$$ banner pole as a great weapon...
wisetiger7 wrote:That's what she said.
Asurion Whitestar wrote:I would normally delete such an off topic post, but this is just too good. Classic..!!
Re: Lothern Sea Helm
Yeah but he won't be mounted for long.
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