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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:27 pm 
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On a slightly OT note, my subscription and PM notifications have suddenly stopped again. Any mod who sees this, some help would be appreciated.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:11 pm 
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It's solid, WBW cannot be hyped enough in the right situations. It's not a win-you-the-game lore like most people want. It's a tool belt lore that gets things done. Very similar to the loremaster.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:44 pm 
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I think the lore is decent.

It's strong from early-mid game but suffers late game because it doesn't have anything that swings battles as much as the other lores.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:24 am 
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Turn 1 Boosted WBW on your WL with BotWD against DoC = #inyafayse!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:31 pm 
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Hope this is allowed; I'm just bumping this for more people's views and also your views about how to COUNTER High Magic! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:18 pm 
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You cannot counter High-Magic. :^o

Ok, you can, but it's really not that easy. A decent L4 (+5 to cast with high) with BoH can really break your (dispel-) day. That's one of the big pros for this lore. Scroll is a must for some army-compositions.

I remember burning a really big night-goblin unit (goblin only player) with fiery convocation, changing the whole game right from round two.

Arcane Unforging, Hand of Glory and Tempest on the other Hand are sub par. AU cann be great, but is severly hindered by it being a direct damage spell, not a hex.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:52 pm 
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Unforging is such a game-changing spell to have in your locker.

Hand of Glory looks pretty tasty to me. An easy one or two-die cast (always available for Shield of Saphery) that can buff combat, speed stuff up or make shooting better?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:30 pm 
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I like hand of glory. Very versatile. Good Even if only to get shield off. Helps board control, in a lot of match ups makes the enemy hit us on 5s. Gives a star dragon an initiative boost. What's not to like?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:33 pm 
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high magic is solid, very flexible.

it only struggles against walls of 1+armour, so bretonians, cavalry empire etc. so you need to compensate for that, max bolt throwers, or a lvl1/2 metal, just to give you something to threaten armour

Tempest is the only sort of meh spell but its reasonably easy to cast with a lvl 4 and can thin out some skaven, halberdiers, elves etc if you are out of fiery convication range.

hand of glory can be crucial if you are playing with lions or swordmasters, bumping up their initiative to ensure that you attack first in close combat or to deny other elves rerolls against them. Watch ogres flap at hitting your weapon skill 7+ swordmasters or watch your BS7 archers scythe down elves and light troops, bliss.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:45 pm 
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HERO wrote:
I think the lore is decent.

It's strong from early-mid game but suffers late game because it doesn't have anything that swings battles as much as the other lores.


Only if you haven't set things up well earlier. It strikes me that the potential of High Magic is maximized by superior planning+execution, which makes a spell to get your ass out of the fire unnecessary. Am I that brilliant player? No, so I tend to prefer shadows and beasts. But I do think it is designed so as to not need combat-swinging spells. For the rest of us (including me) that means combining it with other lores.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:46 pm 
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I've experimented with High as my sole lore and found it underwhelming in that context. It's very easy for opponents to prioritize and dispel and shut down the effectiveness of your phase. High is at its best in two contexts:

1) Maximizing the lore attribute. If you build a list that focuses on juicing up Ward Saves, and view the effects of the spells themselves as a nice side benefit, then it's very easy to get great results with High.

2) Using High as a toolbox, alongside a Loremaster. The Loremaster provides spell redundancy, giving you options so that an opponent cannot prioritize High Magic Dispels as easily. Also, with an Archmage giving you the Dispel bonus and the Loremaster providing combat efficacy (as well as magical attacks versus Ethereals, etc.) you don't feel like you're wasting points on characters.

I myself have used a combination of both these factors to good effect in comped and uncomped environments. Having strong ranged options, like Arcane Unforging, Searing Doom and Spirit Leech plus a strong shooting phase, also provides good board control and killing power to support the infantry-heavy setup that such a build necessarily requires.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:42 am 
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Just played a couple of games.

I would have given my eye teeth for Drain Magic in both of them.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:17 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Just played a couple of games.

I would have given my eye teeth for Drain Magic in both of them.


What were the matchups?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:02 pm 
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Both Empire.

Problem being six-diced Flesh to Stone IF'd in both. Drain would have seen me total the units in my turn.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:22 pm 
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Drain, although situational, is fantastic in the right situations. It´s kind of like Dwellers: In some matchups it´s awesome, in some matchups it does next to nothing.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:28 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Drain, although situational, is fantastic in the right situations. It´s kind of like Dwellers: In some matchups it´s awesome, in some matchups it does next to nothing.

Except buff the ward save for a relatively low cost.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:49 pm 
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Of course for a WE list you get the counters instead. These seem to be especially effective on hard to kill troops like Sisters of the Thorn. Plus they save combat res..

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:27 am 
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Yeah I like Drain Magic. I pretty much always take it when facing a 4th level mage. (Which is almost all the time.) Being able to dispel those spells that last until the next turn is really great. In the last tourney I played in it was great to be able to dispel that regeneration on units I wanted to shoot. And when my opponent cursed me I could get rid of the curse in my turn. When you can threaten him with spells he is more likely to let that one go and save his dice for the "dangerous spell." Plus I get to boost my ward in the process. Though the spell is not a game winner, it can be a game changer. When he is looking at charging me next turn with that nasty regenerating unit and I am able to dispel that then shoot him up afterwards, it really can change the course of battle.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:29 am 
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I always take a Level 4, High Magic with Book of Hoeth, especially now in End Times, I normally run him with an Eagle to move around or I run him with my Swordmasters as a bunker, and I have never regretted it!

Lileaths Blessing: 1+ To Cast for High Magic, making me a Level 5 Caster with the Book of Hoeth, makes me harder to Dispel as well, making my opponents more open to dumping a Rune or Scroll.

The attribute is just plain amazing, 1+ To Ward Save is amazing, and makes tough units immortal, never goes to waste, even if he is on his own, and it is down right nasty when in a brick of infantry, makes Silver Helm buses crazy powerful.

Drain Magic: Awesome Spell if your army is stuck in combat, I love this spell, especially against Ogres and Undead, I can turn off all the argments if I throw a lot of Dice at this, and due to Banner of the World Dragon I have little to worry about Miscasts.

Soul Quench: Awesome Missile, who cares about range, you will kill most chaff with the base blast, and even kill off some more elite and heavier armoured units, hell I have even nocked a few wounds of Monsters and straight out murdered lone Heroes and Lords several times.

Apotheosis: I cast this on random units just for the Fear to stop my unit maybe loosing that LD and being WS1 for a turn, and when I am charging something with low Ld it really comes in handy, the Healing wounds is fun when someone has stuggled to take wounds off my Lord or Dragon and boom, back to full health.

Hand of Glory: The opposite to Shadow, this works better for High Elves I think, cause we are normally outnumbered, and I tend to play a lot of Horde armies and armies built to flank me (Dark Elves, Wood Elves) and others where I get bogged down in combat, and this makes me alot more survivable, and it is a godsend against Undead, makes Swordmasters gods! And makes Cavalry have insane charges!

Tempest: The only spell I dont like, however, against Gunline Dwarfs this has saved my ass, I managed to get all his Siege weapons hit by it, haha! That was fun!

Walk Between Worlds: Need I say anything? Awesome Spell cna save entire units, and can ruin enemy plans, and if your Bolt Thrower cant get a good shot, jsut cast this and move the bastard in to a great arc.. I have done this.. and killed 9 Knights.. Didnt expect that though..

Arcane Unforging: Haha! Best spell! Northing is better then taking Heroic Killing Blow from a Lord and Destroying a Dispel Scroll, always a fun take, not always reliable however..

Fiery Convocation: Best Spell.. Amazing.. I have won games with this, Cast first turn when possible into the biggest unit there is, and watch him waste a magic phase dispelling it or wasting a scroll turn 1, will slaughter horde unit, and will main light armour and average T units, Empire this thing has won me the game!

Deadlock: End Times! Amazing! Hit Nagash with this baby and you win turn 1, hit the Enemy level 4 with this and bam! No more 4+ to Dispel!

It is a good Lore, you cant compare it to the others, as it is kinda like 1 of each spell from each lore, it is powerful as hell when used right, Give it a try in your next End Times game or even standard, if you stop comparing it and expecting it to stand to the other lores then you will fail, it is build to support the elves with what they need, and with it you can rule the magic phase, I am not saying it is the best lore, Life holds that title, by High Magic doesnt use Comp Score, and it is a better lore for Elves, helps in all areas, as opposed to jsut 1


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:34 am 
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I personally didn't like the lore to begin with but the more I use it the more I like it. It does however lean you towards a certain build if going for a level 4 mage. First thing to consider is High Magic has a variety of spells. At any point in the game you can generally find a use for High Magic but as pointed out usually there is a better spell in the BSB. However High Magic has in general rather low casting values which (combined with the Book of Hoeth in particular) means for me at least 3 - 4 spells a turn as opposed to trying to cast two spells, one of which is always dispelled. As such, your list needs to be able to benefit from having numerous spells cast each magic phase (a situation which in general is fairly rare). Therefore I think High Magic in general is a lot more subtle and your list must be able to benefit from each spell as opposed to an all eggs in a basket type magic where it is all about one or two spells (eg. Mindrazor, Pit of Shades). A build type which the seerstaff used to compliment perfectly.

My Elves tend to play redirect with a lot of versatility as opposed to being heavy in one area (eg. combat/gunline etc.) in which case High Magic benefits greatly. It does very much depend on the list. As for the lore attribute, I at first thought it was underwhelming and save having a mage in Phoenix Guard I tend to view it as more of a means to protect my very expensive and important mage more than anything else. Although a mounted BSB with Ring of Fury for 5++ Dragon Prince saves is fun.

I still feel a love for Tempest. I on the whole don't like power vortex spells which just destroy everything as I am mostly a casual gamer. Tempest for me is a vortex spell with a large area of effect but not so powerful it ends games if it goes off.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:45 pm 
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I've rarely used high magic just because shadow/life are such consistent lores you can depend on, but I did just try it last night in a game against DE and I must say I'm a fan. Most turns I had a +5 ward on my helm bus, and my characters had +3 wards, along with hand of glory let them beat the crap out of a witch elf horde. Also saved my frostheart with apoethosis. And I realize now I even forgot the extra +1 to cast which would have been helpful.

So the best lore? Probably not, but combined with a large infantry or cavalry block with a good caster or two in the unit I think it's excellent.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:33 pm 
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Ok is High Magic the best Lore? I think we can all agree: No it is not. I personally think Life is more versatile and keeps the army as a whole alive longer as apposed to the One unit getting a Ward Save buff. As well as providing Miscast Protection (although this one is negatable able given how we can cast a lot of High Magic Spells on 1 dice.) This is true before/after one factors in End Times.

But with End Times I think there is opportunity for High Magic to shine just a little more. Not as brightly as it needs be be but a little brighter. It goes back to the subtly of the Lore we've all talked about. And maybe a little thinking outside the box. This is mainly for if your list lives in the Melee or are already a high mobility army:

Walk Between Worlds: Can be cast on 1 Dice if needed so Low winds/Low casting dice, wont hurt to much. And this is what I want to say about it. UP TO 10" Ethereal movement. That's it. Double march your whole army forwards, then cast Walk Between Worlds on everyone. That's what an average 20" movement phase? Staring maximum distance from your board edge you've just walked your army right into your opponents face and are PROBABLY in charge distance for next turn, at the very least you've cut down on how long you have to spend getting there. Result? Less time being shot at. Cast Hand of Glory into the near by units to boost Weapon Skill/Initiative and the whole army suddenly becomes survivable. Not as good as Life would make them, but fairly decent.

Agree? Disagree? Food for thought?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:10 pm 
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I certainly agree, with End Times low casting values are far better, and high casting values become fairly hard to get off. Basically everything except for fiery convocation is really castable with book of hoeth and the extra +1 bonus to cast. Most lores don't have that luxury have having that many low casting value spells.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:24 pm 
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We are very far from all agreeing that High Magic is not the best Lore.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:38 pm 
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Rainor wrote:
Ok is High Magic the best Lore? I think we can all agree: No it is not.


I disagree.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:32 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Rainor wrote:
Ok is High Magic the best Lore? I think we can all agree: No it is not.


I disagree.


I am willing to me convinced/enlightened

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:49 am 
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I like high magic, I just wish it had a spell that affected strength and / or toughness. The lore makes us better at what we are already good at, and doesn't do loads to mitigate our weaknesses, so I can see how it isn't everyone's favourite. If it was possible to bubble hand of glory and shield of saphery, it'd be awesome.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:46 am 
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High Elves already have access to lots of high Strength attacks.

Using Shield of Saphery is key to mitigating high enemy strength. That and armour on Silver Helms and characters.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:05 pm 
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Quote:
Ok is High Magic the best Lore? I think we can all agree: No it is not.


I would really like to change the approach to how we discuss this matter, since sentences like the above, doesn't have any sense, IMO.
If there was one single lore, that was best regardless of the army list you took everyone would take it, right? And we wouldn't have this discussion. Discussions like what lore is best, what equipment is best, are bolt throwers better than sisters etc, does not have any sense as long as we discuss it in isolation. Almost every unit in (and every lore) in our book can work (besides spearmen :wink: ), if the rest of the army support it.

As for high magic, it can be amazing if you utilize its strengths and mitigate its weakness through your army list. High magic does not provide any high strength attacks nor does it help out against heavily armoured troops. Thus a list that supports high magic should include elements that can deliver those high strength attacks (dragons, white lions, bolt throwers etc.).
If you go to Curu's block and read his battle reports, where he is using his star dragon, you will see what I'm talking about. He runs two lvl. 2's with high magic in a silver helm bus, star dragon and frost phoenix. The lvl. 2's will by turn one be within range to cast soul quench, the healing spell is a no brainer in this list and walk between worlds are terrifying when it can be cast on a star dragon.

So if you build your list probably around high magic, it can be amazing. Just like most other lores.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:38 pm 
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Andros123 wrote:
Quote:
Ok is High Magic the best Lore? I think we can all agree: No it is not.


I would really like to change the approach to how we discuss this matter, since sentences like the above, doesn't have any sense, IMO.
If there was one single lore, that was best regardless of the army list you took everyone would take it, right? And we wouldn't have this discussion. Discussions like what lore is best, what equipment is best, are bolt throwers better than sisters etc, does not have any sense as long as we discuss it in isolation. Almost every unit in (and every lore) in our book can work (besides spearmen :wink: ), if the rest of the army support it.

As for high magic, it can be amazing if you utilize its strengths and mitigate its weakness through your army list. High magic does not provide any high strength attacks nor does it help out against heavily armoured troops. Thus a list that supports high magic should include elements that can deliver those high strength attacks (dragons, white lions, bolt throwers etc.).
If you go to Curu's block and read his battle reports, where he is using his star dragon, you will see what I'm talking about. He runs two lvl. 2's with high magic in a silver helm bus, star dragon and frost phoenix. The lvl. 2's will by turn one be within range to cast soul quench, the healing spell is a no brainer in this list and walk between worlds are terrifying when it can be cast on a star dragon.

So if you build your list probably around high magic, it can be amazing. Just like most other lores.

Great comment and I think this cuts the heart of it.


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