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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:29 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Rainor wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
Rainor wrote:
Ok is High Magic the best Lore? I think we can all agree: No it is not.


I disagree.


I am willing to me convinced/enlightened


It boils down to what your army needs. Perhaps more than ever, spells like Walk Between Worlds and Arcane Unforging are huge game turners. High Magic is about manipulating how fights happen rather than when they happen. In this regard the lore is kind of unique. Whether it's the best choice depends on meta, comp and army composition. I am however hugely impressed with how well it synergizes with our monsters. Being able to default to drain magic and soul quench is also amazing - they have both won me games. Very few lores come close in terms of flexibility, most tend to be hit-or-miss to a much greater degree than High Magic. This consistency is something I appreciate a whole lot.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:55 am 
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It boils down to what your army needs. Perhaps more than ever, spells like Walk Between Worlds and Arcane Unforging are huge game turners. High Magic is about manipulating how fights happen rather than when they happen. In this regard the lore is kind of unique. Whether it's the best choice depends on meta, comp and army composition. I am however hugely impressed with how well it synergizes with our monsters. Being able to default to drain magic and soul quench is also amazing - they have both won me games. Very few lores come close in terms of flexibility, most tend to be hit-or-miss to a much greater degree than High Magic. This consistency is something I appreciate a whole lot.


I'm beginning to see it now. The responses to my previous comment have me dissecting High Magic in a way I haven't done sense I started playing. While I'll have to remain unchanged about Tempest (I've never liked blast template weapons here or in 40k I always roll horribly for scatter: maybe against horde armies where it's hard to miss) I've been reevaluating each spells usefulness and how each one works. I'm beginning to feel comfortable about using it in most if not all my games cause I can easily find uses for it in my current list (link for that in my signature I can always use some constructive criticism.)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:01 am 
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Hello, to answer the OP's question "do I miss old spells" at the time new book came I really missed curse of arrow attraction and old drain magic (allthough this was solely on the fact that I played many games against one of my VC friend who had thing for massive invication of nehek spams ;) ) and ofcourse that drain magic was a freebie spell, but it didn't take me too long to get over that feeling. I missed more (and still do) banner of sorcery, jewel dusk? (the item that gave +1 PD), silver wand and was it seer staff? ( the item that allowed to choose spells) as all those items gave much more reliability to magic that can be rather erratic sometimes.

To answer the topic question "Your views" well, I once upon a time posted a big "wall of text" on other thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45357 that had great discussions about the subject. I will shamelessly copy + paste my text. this certainly is my view and it haven't changed a bit ;) I still updated my post a bit, so anything new will be highlighted in red


--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:58 pm

First of all I have always played in friendly local group. Never entered tournament and I don't see me ever entering. My army builds are usually been around medium / large infantry blocks. Little "fun" thing is that i actually achieved 17 victories in row after new book (until defeated by notorious gutstar) And my victory rate was something of a 50% during the old one.

I used high magic as main magic in prolly about 10 games and it usually consisted white lion combat ward buff build. Allarielle mostly, but also archmage with BoH. (I never used more than 29 whitelions, since usually you don't need more and they are just waste of points) And I usually builded my army around Lore Attribute. Even all the horrible attacks allocated against allarielle or my mage, usually they survive atleast one round. In many cases it was even better to challenge. In best case scenario my opponent was fooled to accept it with champion. Sometimes even combat lord has hard time to kill in single round 3++ 3Wounds character, Allarielle was also great since build in 6WS (never got Heroic Killing Blow :( ). This said if opponent doesn't accept challenge all the better. Usually those blocks I am facing with my had BSB / Combat lords etc. Boo! Hiss! And thanks to FAQ no inspiring precence, no ld for unit from that character and most of all no Hold Your Ground! (this is very important if fighint stubborn / steadfast) Failing a break on 8,9,10 is fairly decent change, failing it twice in row is much unlikely. Given, that using high casting game breaking spells miscast mishaps might blow out your wizard, drain his level and shutdown entire magic phase, in my opinion wizards death on turn 3 - 4 is usually acceptable loss. Due my playstyle with high magic I almost never miscast.

Ill go spell by spell

Drain magic:
In one game I think drain magic was a game breaker. My VC buddy had Vanhel's Dance Macabre and Hellish Vigour in his Grypt Horror unit. I managed to survive due wards and stubborn of WL. Most of time Drain Magic only use was to uneffectly cast it for ward. This was little debate, but then again we concluded that there is no reason that drain magic targets has to have legal debuffs buffs and still lore attribute makes it "worthwhile" Drain magic was also my choice for support mage if he got any of the high casting value spells. And only reason for that was 4+ one dice ward boost. I personally value Drain magic for the sole purpose that this is unique (save Lizardmen, welf) in Warhammer to be able to take out Hexes and Augments (not RIP). There is also a psychological thing that can be mind gamed. As it has been said many many times in this thread you cannot help againts the first turn of combat for those hexes and augments. Many cases if opponent has multi charge and some augments off, that might be equal to Lose game. But I managed to mind game my opponent to overestimate drain magic power and not buffing but rather using like magic missiles to some trivial as reavers or what ever. Here was some comparement to old Drain magic. I used it few times. One was nearly no magic build with high mage using simply drain to diminish opponents magic phase and against VC. I loved it ;) Those vampire magic spammers hated it. It is a shame that this isn't a free bonus for high user. But then again almost all free spells have been removed in 8th.

+ Unique effect
+ Mind gaming ability
+ Ward boost, that is annoying to dispel for opponent.
+ low cast value
+ Suited for my playing style
- Situational
- bubble has to be used at the start of your magic turn. Unless you are playing very offensive magic missile / direct damage spell list. For augments / hex lists no way to use bubble after.


Soul Quench
To my biggest suprice I actually haven't used this spell almost at all. (save fury ring) Due my playing style with high magic, I usually marched enemies strongest units (Savage, black orcs, Grypthorrors etc) and usually i didn't find Soul Quenchin againts those foes to be useful enough and bigger version usually costed too much. So ideal targets usually didn't lie on the front arc of my mage or even in range. With little buff on me I most of the time could handle those units in CC with WL ja PG. Then again, this contradicts close combat buffing, so it really didn't fill in. I don't think that 18 range is so awful as people think, since this game is all about deployment and moving phase. I tried little shooty avoidance and I got to say that this really got my enemy to tremble. I even pictured this lone riding perhaps level 2 mage 2d6 str 4 hits and I would use him as mobile bolt thrower. Never really did this, but prolly will try it. Especially now when my winning strake got broken. I am surely going to try it if that Lileaths Blessing thing would be stacking! oh boy those level 1 horse shooty dudes!

+ Powerful magic missile
+ Low cast
+ Upgraded version is extremely powerful
- Not castable in CC
- Not suited for my playing style

Apotheosis
I love it. Simply as that. If i rolled it to my support mage oh boy! 66% one dicing ward bonus with a lvl 1. At start I really didn't see phoenixies that powerful and to be honest at first glance I was really disappointed. When I finaly tried frostheart... i went to speechless. It even tanked in front of gutstar, taking aprox 2,5 wounds per turn when rolled 6 on WoM (not counting character hits) and the synergy with our WL ja SM, no worries for higher initiative. And ASF is fairly rare talent, only for Helfs and characters mostly... Then again even healing a single wound from that Frostie, was almost always worth it. Many times he would have been killed if there wasnt that heal. And d3 heal, with only 10+. Well for support mage that would be harsh, using 2PD, for average 7, no. but for archmage with BoH 2D, no problem, and fairly decent chance even 1 dicing. Then again it was very rare, that my mage died in first combat round. But usually they died the second. So here was a problem. First of all, I wanted to charge -> mage usually died in second round. If i let the charge in (depands what opponent had) and if it was frontal usually it didn't really matter. That White Lion block really will be raped only from flanks (not so much from back either, still getting decent ammounts of attack back, and ward bonus saved most of guys) So this spell worked best in situation where I let my opponent charge me. -> that made mage last almost always 3 rounds and usually by that White Lions have cutted through opponent. Another very good way of making your warding mage to survive longer is to plan ahead where to deploy your mage. Place your mage in far end that opponents super killy characters are. In that way they cannot do make way.

+ Great ward boost, hard to opponent to dispel since it has so "minor" effect;)
+ Phoenix stays alive little better
+ Combat mage stays alive little better
+ Suits my playing style perfectly
+ Fear is overlooked too often. not super powerful but I always love a chance of WS1 for my opponent
- I might be little biased, but i actually can't find too many bad thing about this. Of course if you compare it to many other spells from many other lores, it seems very weak.

Hand of Glory
I really don't understand people that says Meh to this utility tool box. Il go little derail on the matter, but i want to make out one point. Imo miasma is the best game in spell. End of story, not because its super powerful. There is three main reasons why is this so. First is that you can have it always since it is signature. Second, it solves many many problems many armies include us have. Debuffin ones WS is usually better than increases one, since getting that 5+ you need to increase your WS in most cases double as much, as you need to decrease anothers WS. Well who can say that decreasing BS from thunderers, delf xbow, tomb kings archers (since Arrow of Asaph only works againts modifiers) with nice range of 48' and believe that smoke and mirrors is point saver in many situation. Movement decrease is very solid problem solver to flanking cavalry, MC. Even decrease of 1 in movement hinders cavalrys movement greatly. Initiative drop. Very solid if you are able to get first strike with this, allow you to reroll your own. Building pit of shades / purple sun trap. Third reason is that many players tend to overlook miasma, since its not so high priority target. Ok, now back from that derail. All the pros of miasma applies to hand of glory except two the critical... Signature. Oh I would cry out if it would be, or if there would be a solid way to have this spell. Second critical is range 18... This spell is not game changer, this spell is TIEBREAKER. Low priority for your opponent. Silverhelms love ws5 even ws 6. I use them as darts 3x3 FC darts. 10 x rerollable str 5 hits. Well WS4 means almost always hitting on 4+ -> 75% hit chance. WS5 says that many times depands on opponent hitting on 3+ 86%, WS6 says that almost always hitting on 86% chance. In my experience SH don't need opponents to hit them with 4+ 5+, but that is always surviability and most of all the important Combat Resolution. My best use of BS has been 10+ sisters. What can I say. Casting guarenteed +1 to hit on 5+? That alone would be useful spell. Cast with 2/3 times +2 or +3 to hit with 5+... What sisters do? They strip regeneration off. You really don't want big unit of sisters. They are glass and not expandable. 5 unit is far too unreliable to strip regeneration from example hydra. 10 is rather big unit and start to cost too much and attract too much opponents interest. adding critical bs boost. Movement bonus, don't let me start you. White lions with 6 movement? how about 7 or 8. only for 5+ casting. Even SH with 10 movement is very good. Initiative well why not, it helps with GW. it helps if enemy has high initiative character to have Rerolls. And all of this 10+ to have it all. Seriously 2d6 for archmage with BoH doing it... I usually cast upgraded version to archers that are about to get charged. BS increased, so yes more shooting. WS increased to at least 5 and bs for stand and shoot. That unit becomes suddenly much harder to tackle. But this application usually is hindered by range and because my playing style usually involves alot of marching forward and trying to get CC as soon as possible, my archers usually are left behind. Oh and, what was it? ward boost ;)

+ Toolbox, use in movement, use in shooting, use in
+ low cast
+ Low priority for opponent
+ Tiebreaker in many situations
- Not signature
- short short short range. Why...

Walk Between Worlds
This spell is gold. Game is winned in movement (and bit of luck), making your flank, even rear charges easier this spell is what you want. In my experience 10 inches is usually enough. I probably have used this spell upgraded version only once. My most common use of this is to get my silverhelm dart in flank position. Sometimes also got it for frostie to get rear position. In my playing style I actually almost never used it to move my White lions allthough at my latest games http://loriel.kapsi.fi/WHFB_BR/HE071/BR.html http://loriel.kapsi.fi/WHFB_BR/HE073/BR.html I used it to get my white lion block to give my opponent a solid chance to charge against me. This was after I allready got the 3+ ward or would get it with walk.. One great usage to this spell is also to clear manglers / fanatics out of the way. Atleast in my local group this spell is prolly the highest priority for dispel, so I usually never manage to do it, especially since i usually do it one dicing with BoH or 2 dicing. Depends on my WoM. Again ward ward ward. Then again, this spell is somewhat situational. And depands on your list, if you cannot cast it then you cannot increase wards.

+ Clear winner of the lore. Simply as that. One of the best spells in the game.
+ Can be game breaker
- Situational
- High priority to dispel

Tempest
This spell gets least love from me. But to be honest this isn't a bad spell. 1/3 of hit, d6 scatter large template isn't too much problem. If it could be targeted in combat then I think, it would be worthwhile. That -1 to hit modifier is hard to get to CC. I could see it used against Dwarf gunline, but at least my local group doesn't deploy his gunline too close to each other. And since it need to wound in order to get debuff, against warmachines 6+ to wound (str 3 to t 7). So little tweak hit is needed in order to get debuff, would be huge. And upgraded version that doesnt scatter or increases str. for like 16+ str4?? eeh... not scatter... well hard to say. For me this spell is usually auto signature. It simply doesn't fall to my playing style. But perhaps I shouldn't judge it by covers. Large template is still large.

+ large template
+ range 30
- effect needs a wound
- scatter
- little too heavy casting cost. say 10? would that bee too little...
- no upgrade

Arcane Unforging
This is very useful spell. Still would trade this to vaul's unmaking anyday. Well sniping is always nice. Magic item destroying is always nice. Can see a real usage against certain cheddar dreadlord build ;) No armor, no inverse ward (since no str hit) and best case scenario stubborn crown / inverse ward destroyed. I am referring to dark elf 7th edition "unkillable" pegasus lordThis spell is good no doubt it. I haven't used it my self, because once again this doesn't serve my purpose. And i Really don't want to blow any magical weapons my unfortunate enemy has bough when using Banner of the World Dragon. (to be honest, I have used Banner only once against each of my local group player and promised (with fingers crossed) that I will not use it again. But as far as ward boosting, this spell isn't going to work out. With different army build this spell is one of the highest priorities. Oh god i have to say that this is so awesome spell for Slann... Can use it and then trade to another spell from any lore.... Still generating it, but hey usually this is one use only.

+ Simply solid to solve protected / killy characters
+ range is 24
- "one use only" type of spell
- hard to cast, but imo right price for the spell itself
- Not suited for my playing style.

Fiery Convocation
This spell is game breaker in right situation. RIP dispel 19 means, that opponent needs 15 /with level 4) in order to dispel effect on his next turn. This means that dispelling on average you need roughly 5 dices. And if that dispel fails then BOOM! For me this spell is "keep your opponent on his toes". Now my regular opponents knows this and doesn't fear it too much. I tend to think, than ok. this is a spell that needs IF or it will be scrolled. With banner on unit, there is really two miscast that I Really Really Really don't want. One is of course power drain, other calmanous detonation with 1-3 roll. Since my strategy with high magic has revolved around ward boosting this spell hasn't really played out for me in most of my games. But when I have used it (actually two times) in both scenarios got IF. In first nothing bad, second mage dead but it also buried a massive horde of Nurgle Warriors. Best part of this was, that both times my opponent rolled like 1+2 dices for WOM next turn. Well in game of dices, it is stupid to say HEY! this happened to me once or twice. That serves no purpose. Even when my mage died giving opponent that about 200 SS I managed to got it back as warriors and the game was actually won After the battle I was kindly pointed out by @Stormie that RIP are removed when the mage dies. ;) . Those of you that say hey its only str 4, wake up. Its hitting every model, after every single phase. Think about 4d6 str 4 magic missile for 16. So this really depands on what are you hitting. smaller unit evaporates from 4d6 str 4, larger units decimates from fiery. Say those nurgle warriors. Half are wounded, half save (due chaos armor + shield), and... mag res at best 4+ means that 1/8 of unit is dead. without mag res. that is 1/4 and on average panic test (even if bsb etc. never overlook panic, that can be real game changer, even opponent doesn't run from edge, it surely hinders his action). Say Plague Monks from skaven. 1/2 wounded, 1/3 saved from mag res from plague furnace. Means 12 / 36 -> 1 / 3 of models die. Well no panic due frenzy / furnace for that unit, but the point is that is really helpful.

+ Great to keep your opponent on his toes.
+ Game breaker
+ Solves hordes
+ range is nice
+ Makes your opponent to have hard time to choose how to play his next magic phase
- Not suited for my playing style

[EDIT] As stormie pointed out, there was flaw in my game. RIP should have ended after mage dead. Even so, i think it will not be too risky to try cast this spell with IF. Certain death only occurs when 2d6 is 2,3,4 , and subsequently d6 is 1-3. If you are only at one wound, then death could incure much easily from other miscast results. Only results of 7 and 10 - 12 doesnt inflict wounds on mage.

---------------------------------------------------------

Overall conclusion:

High magic is great, but you need to make your whole armylist around it. As many said it's tactical lore. Imo magic in 8th has really been "nerfed" to too random. There for magic is best used as support. Oh how do we loved Teclis overpowering purple suns to ogre hordes, dwellers to make our opponents faces drop. Think about how easily that was done in 7th book. you had 2d6 (WoM), 2d3 (teclis + banner of sorcery), support mage with jewel perhaps +1 pd and 2 x channels, making it 9 / 36 to have at least one channel and 1 / 36 to have two channels. I think this is one of the main reasons people look at high magic / heavens / miasma etc because they like to have obvious game breakers like purple sun, dweller, okkams mindrazor, perhaps even transformation (never used it). Those spells that really could set the game. High magic is more tiebreaker type of lore with very good reliability. Imo best of the all lores in game. In 7th we got strong magic because PD generation and strong casters (book of hoeth was.... phew... Teclis.... phew) Now when magic is very variable even a WoM roll of 1,2 gives High magic reasonable chance to have even 3 spells casted (well lets say 2 if you have 3 dices). Opponent can reasonable only dispel one (save scroll) And when those spells are used to enhance performance of other parts in game. In movement, in shooting, in close combat to break that average tie, almost every turn, you gain almost every turn that small advantage and likelyhood to win entire game.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:57 pm 
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Are we talking about high magic with or without the ET:K magic rules?

For my two pence I played an ET game yesterday with a book of hoeth high magic Archmage in a cavalry bus and it was game breaking-ly good.

Drain magic can counter unpleasant buffs and RiP ET spells, if you don't have any to worry about that then just go for the High magic ET spell on your opponents primary caster and proceed to one dice soul quench, walk or hand of glory (all 8+ so you have 89% success with the book and 1 pd) ad-infinitium for the 3++.

In my opinion the fact you now know all spells, and cast cast each multiple times, has turned this lore from one I barely touched before to the best lore available.. The lore attribute is that good.

Edit:
Forgot to mention above the other less tangible benefit of High is that my opponent, afraid of Unforging, put a lot of his effort into keeping his mages out of the front ark of mine. Clearly this can help you with controlling the board, especially combined with quench and walk.


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