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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:51 am 
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Hi all! I just wanted to ask what you all thought of the new version of the Lore of HM? Do you miss spells like 'Curse of Arrow Attraction' and 'Vaul's Unmaking'? Or do you feel the new Lore better suits the HE army? I have the new army book in front of me, just can't seem to find my copy of the previous one at the moment....

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:18 pm 
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Noble Korhedron wrote:
Hi all! I just wanted to ask what you all thought of the new version of the Lore of HM? Do you miss spells like 'Curse of Arrow Attraction' and 'Vaul's Unmaking'? Or do you feel the new Lore better suits the HE army? I have the new army book in front of me, just can't seem to find my copy of the previous one at the moment....


It blows chunks, would rather have searing doom, ice shard blizzard or Spirit Leech on a low lever wizard, and completely underpowered on a lvl 4. Give the old lore a decent Lore attribute and bump flames of the phoenix up to S5 and we are talking. The old lore didn't have useless spells like Tempest, and casting a 5++ on a unit is better than giving your own unit +1 ward save.

I would have made the High Magic attribute something like a unit in a HE army that was effected by a augment from the High Magic hand of glory getting +1 to which ever stat you chose. Then make the lore similar to Lore of Nurge with spells that are augments and hexes

sig; Shield 5++ or -1 ward

sig; Drain Magic

Soul quench - single model takes d6 or boosted 2d6 S8 hits wounding against the models Ld

Curse of Arrow attraction - augment, successful enemy shooting against anything other than this unit must be re-rolled, hex re-roll failed to hit against this unit RIP

Courage of Aenarion - Single Target Stubborn or AoE Stubborn. RIP

Walk between Worlds - as now

Arcane unforging - as now changed to hex, addition of an augment that returns a previously used or destroyed item is optional

Flames - S5 hex, or augment for a unit that does damage to enemies is that are in btb or move through the unit in the movement phase. RIP

Right now the lore is sluggish while set up to be a defensive and reactive which in gameplay terms usually translates poorly.
Now its a lore worth looking at seriously.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:35 pm 
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The old Lore was excellent. Cheap to cast, hurt the enemy from turn 1, a free spell. Flames was deceptively powerful because of the RIP. Add Banner of Sorcery and my lvl3 dominated enemy lvl4/lvl2 phases.

I've not used the new Lore but Baleanoon's point about Tempest is one of the reasons it doesn't appeal to me. That said, if you're running multi-character units the Attribute can be very strong. A lot of good players use it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:40 pm 
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I think the new lore is decent and it has been used to great effect at some tournaments - see the US masters winning list. It does require some very careful thought about how it is being used and an army really has to be designed around it. The main issue I think a lot of players have is in the lore being very general in nature, it can be very good though in the right situation and it is also a great support lore.

In many ways I think High magic is similar to its previous incarnation in that the two signatures are so good that you often take a support mage just to get one of these (in the last incarnation you got the free spell 'Drain Magic'). The lore in general is probably better though in the way it works on the table.

Summary: New lore is similar to the old one but better. It gets used more especially in lists where the aim is to buff an already existing wardsave i.e. PG-star or DP bus.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:52 pm 
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I like the new lore, I liked the old lore. Comparing who is better is a void point seeing as the entire book is so different. The old lore allowed us to play certain builds that were impossible otherwise, see Furion`s bowline for a competitive example. The new lore allows us to play certain builds that would not be even remotely as strong without, see the Star Dragon + cavbus template or the PG-star referenced above.

Our signatures are good, but not amazing. True, in some games they are game-breaking on their own, in others they rarely do anything at all. The old signature was almost always useful and Drain Magic was an excellent bonus spell for an L2 wizard. However Walk Between Worlds and Apotheosis provide the flexibility which I don`t think we ever had before. Flames of the Phoenix/Fiery Convocation are largely the same, i.e. if one threatens you the other will as well. Both have their advantages and drawbacks but mainly, it`s the same type of spell (unlike WBW compared to Courage for example). Same for Vaul`s Unmaking/Arcane Unforging, though Direct Damage does hurt it a lot.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:02 pm 
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John if the new Lore is better it must be amazing because the old one was very powerful.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:31 pm 
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I personally felt like I got more out of the old lore in my games day to day. Just in general I was more satisfied. I can't say which is better, because the book and edition and meta have changed so much but these days I feel like there are two, sometimes three useless spells in the lore depending on the game.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:48 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
John if the new Lore is better it must be amazing because the old one was very powerful.

True but you hardly ever saw it on a lvl.4. You at least see the the new lore on a lvl.4 now on the competitive scene.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:51 pm 
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Having only used the new lore (in game) I can say I actually enjoy it. I provides a lot of utility and works wonders as a supporting lore. If you can place it properly, then the bonuses it provide are amazing.

Walk between worlds can help get a block of SMs to combat as early as T2. Apotheosis has an amazing ability to bring a wound back while also adding to the ward of the parent unit through our lore attribute. That lore attribute being huge by the way, I love the synergy is can add to say PGs or DPs.

I just wish that the DDs were not S3.. Everything in our army is S3 for the exception of lords/heroes/monsters/WLs. It makes a great lore a lot harder to find viability against a high Toughness army. S4 is all I'm asking, nothing that'll break the bank, just enough to make our DDs taken seriously.

Add the fact that Blessing of Lileath (+1 to cast per high mage) effectively increases the level of your wizard for High Magic, it makes getting minor spells (Hand of Glory on a 5+) off with only a single power dice which is nice to supplement your ward save.

@Baleanoon: While I really like your train of thought of having a lot of the spells either augment or hex, you have too many that RIP. Very few buffs RIP in the current edition. You'd break the balance if half the lore had RIP... and anything that breaks the balance gets hit with a nerf bat eventually. (RIP Speed of Asuryan :( )


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:41 pm 
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Furion's High Magic list ripped up the very strong Polish scene John. The only reason High Magic didn't catch on in English-speaking countries was that there was too much inertia with Shadow. Plenty of UK players thought they knew everything about HE's but were totally unfamiliar with High Magic builds. In general people play what they see, they don't innovate IMHO.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:03 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Furion's High Magic list ripped up the very strong Polish scene John. The only reason High Magic didn't catch on in English-speaking countries was that there was too much inertia with Shadow. Plenty of UK players thought they knew everything about HE's but were totally unfamiliar with High Magic builds. In general people play what they see, they don't innovate IMHO.


A poster on Warseer made a very similar observation last night or this morning actually. He was talking about appearance rate and how it has no real meaning other than its appears often. Most people aren't forward thinking when it comes to the meta. For instance I'm at the stage now where I feel Loremaster is almost compulsory to have a chance in quite a few match ups. At my last local event people were completely mentally unprepared to fight a bowline let alone have the tools in their armies to have a proper go at it.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:19 am 
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When comparing the old and the new high magic, I think that both can be powerful but in a different way.

The old High magic was a great all purpose lore. It would fit in with most army builds with little list rewriting. It gave enough tools to be useful both early game and later on. It was my go-to lore if I didn't know what to get or if I didn't have a specific goal in mind for magic.

The new High magic is more specialized. It's a powerful lore when used right. But it requires specific builds to function well. You can't just add it into any army list and expect to get good use out of it. You need a reason for each of the spells to be in your list. But I do feel it is more designed to fill specific weaknesses in the HE army. There is something against big units of cheap stuff (tempest, convocation). Protection, the lore attribute and apotheosis mainly. But also tempest (giving -1 to hit). Board control (walk and hand). And Magic (unforging and drain). But that does mean you need a list that exploits those elements and a meta where it matters.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:08 pm 
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I personally love the new High Magic. I find it has a spell for every occasion, and always presents me with useful tools, something that the other lores don't. It has low casting values which is a boon, 2 signatures which allow you to truly modify your spell selection to suit your needs, and the spells cover the full range.

High - 1 Magic Missile, 3 Augments, 1 Hex, 3 Direct Damage. And 2 of those direct damages are in essence a Hex too (Tempest giving -1, and Arcane Unforging taking magic items away is in essence a debuff therefore hex).

Compare that to other lores, and while Life has a better unit killer, it's not remains in play, has a higher casting value, and 2 of the spells are pathetic, especially if you don't have Throne. Shadow has nice hexes, but their casting values are all higher than most everything in High, and there is no damage spell except for Pit. And it goes on.

In the end I have had spells from other lores where I go "Ugh, this isn't going to be helpful," but I have not had that happen yet with High. It's why it's been hard branching out to other lores with my Wood Elves. I keep wanting to try out the other lores, I've used Shadow and Heavens so far on mages, and found that in almost every case it doesn't perform as well as High Magic would.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:37 pm 
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Baleanoon wrote:
In general people play what they see, they don't innovate IMHO.

I agree with you and count myself in this category for the most part (as in the copy cat part).

I don't really agree on the old lore being all that decent though. Sure Furion used it to good but who else did other than people running it on level 2's? I don't think it was ever good enough to be considered in contention with the other rulebook lores. As others have said it had some neat spells that were on their own useful but no real synergy within the lore or a huge amount of synergy with competitive builds. Yes a bowline could be made better but it is very dependent on spell selection (Silver Wand helped) but was it enough to warrant taking the rest of the lore? I would say not.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:55 pm 
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John Rainbow wrote:
Baleanoon wrote:
In general people play what they see, they don't innovate IMHO.

I agree with you and count myself in this category for the most part (as in the copy cat part).

I don't really agree on the old lore being all that decent though. Sure Furion used it to good but who else did other than people running it on level 2's? I don't think it was ever good enough to be considered in contention with the other rulebook lores. As others have said it had some neat spells that were on their own useful but no real synergy within the lore or a huge amount of synergy with competitive builds. Yes a bowline could be made better but it is very dependent on spell selection (Silver Wand helped) but was it enough to warrant taking the rest of the lore? I would say not.


Always having Drain Magic was huge for limiting the opponents use of dice. One casting of DM made quite a few power spells almost require IR to even cast, combined with +1 to dispel made level 2's deadly. Vaul's not being Direct damage so you could cast it into combat, Shield was amazing since you could use it from the safety of your bunker and combine it with magic res against death snipes and such.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:23 pm 
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Me too John, every time I make a list I end up thinking Seredain did something similar before.

His list was the other prime example. It was controversial but held up pretty well in the meta of the time I feel. It went down very well in Australia and did well in several tournaments. You had to know what you were doing though, deployment and movement were key. If you took High on an AM you needed to build lots of high strength attacks into the list because the power of the Lore was (and is) in board control, not combat buffs. Though Shield could turn combats.

First turn you had most of Curse, Fury, Flames and Vaul's. It hit the enemy immediately and with BoS just overloaded a lot of defenses. Flames and Drain killed the other guy's magic phase. If you had shooting, Curse was vicious, even with S3, let alone RBT and magic bows, then add Fury to taste. The overload was such that you almost always got Shield off when you needed it and on re-rolling GW elites that was decisive. Cast Vaul's and then hit with a Loec Prince.

It was an awesome Lore (owned DE Shadow phases) and I miss it sorely.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:44 pm 
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Innovating is hard, true. Finding the unique and new lists is extremely rewarding though, not only do you have to develop a unique playstyle but if the concept has potential, most people will be caught off-guard. Knowing how to approach a matchup is often more important than anything else. Failing to evaluate the threat projections of a list then is a huge drawback and even experienced players will frequently make mistakes here.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:14 pm 
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I well remember a lot of quite decent players going "....what?" when Furion posted his list up. I also remember him saying how the apparent weakness of the list was one of it's advantages.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:19 pm 
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Yep.

Trying to compare the lores is really hard, because so much is different. Vaul`s obviously lost out a lot of its potential with Arcane being direct damage, but losing the Seerstaff also limits our mages` ability to pick something that augments the army. Being able to take an L2 and put him in PG with Hand and Walk now would be priceless. Instead, we have to double up on the support mages or bring an L4 to match this flexibility. True, the option was never there in the first place, but we could for example take an L2 with Seerstaff to reliably grab Vaul`s and Shield, for example.

Ultimately I think the new high magic is less versatile in terms of what lists you can take it with, but when combined with the right list its flexibility augments the list so much that without, it might not even have been playable. My best example here is the Star Dragon + Cavbus list, where 2x L2s provide a truly terrifying magic phase.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:10 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:

Ultimately I think the new high magic is less versatile in terms of what lists you can take it with, but when combined with the right list its flexibility augments the list so much that without, it might not even have been playable. My best example here is the Star Dragon + Cavbus list, where 2x L2s provide a truly terrifying magic phase.


Can you point me to an example of said list please.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:27 am 
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Nightwing wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:

Ultimately I think the new high magic is less versatile in terms of what lists you can take it with, but when combined with the right list its flexibility augments the list so much that without, it might not even have been playable. My best example here is the Star Dragon + Cavbus list, where 2x L2s provide a truly terrifying magic phase.


Can you point me to an example of said list please.


Sure, check out my blog, the Norwegian ETC 2014 list or the Spanish and Italian ETC 2013 lists :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:37 am 
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Slightly unrelated Q. Are any of you guys getting your 'subscribe topic' emails? 'Cause I don't seem to be getting any of mine, and I DID subscribe to this topic, which I generally do with all topics I start... :? :?

RE High Magic, you guys are giving me plenty of food for thought about fighting with and against HE. Keep those comemnts coming! :D

EDIT: @Loremasters: Thanks! Subs are working properly again!!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:26 pm 
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In my opinion High Magic sets up in current metagame very well. It is the lore of my choice for my Level 4 for my current roster, which is under construction. 4d6 vs Elves, Unmaking for 3+ chaos ward, moonstone, cloak of twilight, WBW vs Dwarfs and Empire. It might work.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:22 pm 
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John Rainbow wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:
John if the new Lore is better it must be amazing because the old one was very powerful.

True but you hardly ever saw it on a lvl.4. You at least see the the new lore on a lvl.4 now on the competitive scene.


That is nothing to do with the lore it is to do with huge banner of the world dragon death stars at 1000points+ benefitting from the lore attribute.
The new lore is decent enough on a level 2 but tbh I don't like drain magic so the second signature is useless. Soul quench is ok but generally my issue with the lore is 2 things, 1 the lore attribute should benefit the target not the unit casting. 2 none of the spells are bent and high elves are not meant to play Death Stars so some of them should are like vamps magic does or give elves a decent combat buff. And lastly the ranges are pathetic 18inches for an elf caster is fairly laughable.
A level 2 I use a lot flames and vauls or whatever they call them now are very good spells. Some of the other stuff is just about usable but tbh 95% of the time apotheosis, tempest! drain magic and hand of glory are swapped out, soul quench and walk between worlds are average spells.
The biggest problem with the lore for a lord caster is it lacks direction and elves need magic buffing 90% of the time to work so if you roll the incorrect spells or only 1 good spell which is very likely in most match ups then you have zero magic threat

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:45 pm 
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Some controversial views here finreir, considering the recent list developments we`ve seen.

Quote:
but tbh I don't like drain magic so the second signature is useless.


Drain magic has downright won me games. With 2x L2s, you can double up on this spell vs buff-heavy enemies like Life/Light Empire. Why do you not like it?

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2 none of the spells are bent and high elves are not meant to play Death Stars so some of them should are like vamps magic does or give elves a decent combat buff.


Why are High Elves not meant to play deathstars? I think we do this rather well, as I argued in another thread I think it is a necessity for us to group characters together to play competitively. This naturally leads to very strong units, some of which are deathstars.

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Some of the other stuff is just about usable but tbh 95% of the time apotheosis, tempest! drain magic and hand of glory are swapped out


I agree that Apotheosis and Drain Magic are situational, but they can both be game-breaking (Apotheosis on a Star Dragon is nasty, see my reasoning above for Drain Magic). Tempest is just useless, and Hand of Glory is, again, situational. To truly make the lore work though you need to build the synergy into the list. Either you have to have a list which makes some of the spells truly terrifying to face (e.g. WBW on a PG star or a Dragon) or you have to really benefit from the lore attribute. The latter allows the stacking of spells to provide a significant combat boost.

Soul Quench is an excellent spell for a mounted mage given its flexibility vs MSU enemies. See my reasoning in the Powerplay article submission for its viability vs Elves and LZ in particular. Walk Between Worlds is only average if you don`t have a unit that`s a monster in combat: I`ve frequently drawn scrolls with its boosted version cast on either PG, Helmstar or Star Dragon.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:35 pm 
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@curu
Not agreeing with you or others does not make me controversial wrong or right, it just means it's how I see it

The characters thing you know I hate Death Stars it's not because I think they are not competitive it's just because I hate death stars and the comp people hide behind to take them, they lead to skill less players doing well in events, and more important make zero sense in the fluff.

I will admit maybe I exaggerated with drain magic it's not in the useless 90% of the time category probably nearer 60% tbh, although I often find myself taking it just to get the 3++ in combat.

Any way hope furion proves me wrong on the level 4 high but for me it's a lore for a l2 caster or a lore master that knows all 8 spells, 4 spells is like lore of life your level 4 likely to get a load of crap.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:40 am 
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I've been using High Magic for a while now, so I feel qualified to comment.

I think the Lore Attribute has to be utilized for the lore to make much sense and see a worthwhile return on its investment. Otherwise, the lack of redundancy means your opponent can control it very easily. If you don't know what I mean by "redundancy", I mean that it doesn't have enough spells to throw at a given combat situation when you really want an end result. It has one spell for one purpose, one spell for another purpose, and this makes it very easy for an opponent to prioritize his Dispels. If you're going for the Ward Save though, and treating the spell effects as an added benefit, then you won't be disappointed by spell selection.

If you really want to have fun... Add the Loremaster. That gives you two magic users, one to carry the book and one to carry the Scroll, plus a magic weapon wielder to handle Ethereals or add other useful magic items as necessary. I fielded this in one of the biggest GTs in the Western US earlier this year and wasn't disappointed by my character allowance or my magic phase.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:13 am 
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Tethlis wrote:
I've been using High Magic for a while now, so I feel qualified to comment.

I think the Lore Attribute has to be utilized for the lore to make much sense and see a worthwhile return on its investment. Otherwise, the lack of redundancy means your opponent can control it very easily. If you don't know what I mean by "redundancy", I mean that it doesn't have enough spells to throw at a given combat situation when you really want an end result. It has one spell for one purpose, one spell for another purpose, and this makes it very easy for an opponent to prioritize his Dispels. If you're going for the Ward Save though, and treating the spell effects as an added benefit, then you won't be disappointed by spell selection.

If you really want to have fun... Add the Loremaster. That gives you two magic users, one to carry the book and one to carry the Scroll, plus a magic weapon wielder to handle Ethereals or add other useful magic items as necessary. I fielded this in one of the biggest GTs in the Western US earlier this year and wasn't disappointed by my character allowance or my magic phase.


That investment of basically double level 4 works very well I agree. Have played lore master with several magic lores to hide their defficiences, but now I try and pick lores where a level 2 support caster will do the job.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:25 am 
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The characters thing you know I hate Death Stars it's not because I think they are not competitive it's just because I hate death stars and the comp people hide behind to take them, they lead to skill less players doing well in events, and more important make zero sense in the fluff.


In my opinion, grouping characters together is the one way HE can play competitively with the current book. It is the one common denominator for basically every strong list we have seen. If you hate deathstars then I believe our current book simply doesn`t suit you. We can`t do the multi-threat character madness that DE can, nor can we rely on units to a greater degree like WE.

As for less skilled players doing well in events, I have yet to see this with High Elves. What events have poorly skilled players done well with High Elves because they took a deathstar?

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I will admit maybe I exaggerated with drain magic it's not in the useless 90% of the time category probably nearer 60% tbh, although I often find myself taking it just to get the 3++ in combat.


Indeed, it is often useless. Depends on your meta. Still though, having a signature spell cast at 7+ providing +1 to your ward save in combat sounds like a sweet deal.

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Any way hope furion proves me wrong on the level 4 high but for me it's a lore for a l2 caster or a lore master that knows all 8 spells, 4 spells is like lore of life your level 4 likely to get a load of crap.


Again, the army has to be built around it. For example, a Dragon list wants Apotheosis and Walk Between Worlds. 2x L2 have roughly a 70% chance of getting both. Likewise, a PG-list wants Hand of Glory and Walk Between Worlds. An L4 has the same chance. The clue however is that there are so many good other spells as well: For the Star Dragon Arcane Unforging and Fiery Convocation are often welcome additions and the PG build can almost always benefit from the same as well. This leaves only Tempest as the universally crap spell, unlike Life where you really only want 4 spells (Throne, Flesh, Regrowth, Dwellers). I do see your point with regards to spell selection being important, but I don`t think High is as bad as Life in this regard.

@Tethlis - by and large I see your point, but you can frequently create situations with the spells alone where your opponent has 2+ spells he has to stop. Examples include WBW + Arcane Unforging (Star Dragon vs Warriors of Chaos for example), double soul quench (deathtrain vs Wood Elves for example), double drain magic (infantry HE vs Life/Light Empire for example), Hand of Glory + WBW (PG-star vs anything) etc etc. True, taking advantage of the ward save is a big deal and to do so, having big units with multiple characters is a logical starting point, but I see High Magic as being the best support for a Star Dragon and this has very little to do with Shield of Saphery (though of course it comes in very handy, especially with Ironcurse Icon to help the bus out surviving artillery).

I have tried the Loremaster + L2 High (see my "Indian Summer" reports) and found it interesting, though in practice I wish I had an L4 High + support Beasts instead. Throughout the tournament my L2 High was more crucial than the Loremaster, I found that the synergy between high magic and offensive pg + cav was far more dangerous for an opponent than a spirit leech here and a miasma there: When that huge cast of boosted WBW threatens to put my PG right in the middle of his center with my cav on the flank that scroll did come out really fast.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:55 pm 
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My favourite tactic with high magic is to attempt to unforge the opponents dispel scroll,

it leaves them with a few options, non beneficial for them

1.) they chuck enough dispel dice at unforge to guarantee dispelling it, opening up the rest of the magic phase for you.
2.) or they lose their scroll...

I consider that win win in my book :)

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