What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

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Andros123
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What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#1 Post by Andros123 »

Hello fellow generals!

I'll be running a cavalry bus with a prince, lvl. 4 and my BSB for an upcoming tournament. After much thought the rest of the army consists of archers, 3 bolt throwers, frostheart, reavers and block of infantry. I'm running high magic on the archmage and either heavens or high magic on a lvl. 2.

So my overall question is what infantry unit to bring in a cav bus setup like this?
I should mention that it is not possible to bring white lions with the banner of the world dragon, since it is heavily comped in this tournament.

My thoughts:
Love the swordmasters. However I'm not willing to place my lvl. 4 high mage with them, so sadly they are just to fragile.

White lions hit like a ton of bricks and definitely works well against anything with good armour. Especially a great counter to all that 1+ monstrous cavalry. However they also die way to easily. In close combat it is not a problem because they are stubborn, but at range they are too fragile. With Wood elves now having magical shooting the white lions get a ridicules 6+ AS against their arrows.
But the biggest concern I have is war machines versus both white lions and swordmasters. One single hit from a trebuchet or the skull cannon, and a unit of 25 guys are useless for the rest of the battle.

This draws me to the conclusion that only the phoenix guard can be the answer. I'll put a lvl. 2 high mage in there, to give them the 3++ when needed. They also give my list some grinding power, which the cav bus doesn't really have.

Any thoughts on why not to bring the phoenix guard? Unfortunately, they just seem to be the only viable option in competitive play at the moment.
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#2 Post by Curu Olannon »

You can read a number of infantry + cavbus reports here, more specifically the tournament games from Indian Summer, Swedish Master`s and games #14 -> #26.

A list I would really like to try based on my experiences so far looks as follows:
Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893

17 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 421
5 Reavers, Champion, Bows = 95
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 601

22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 405
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & rare = 905

Army Total = 2399
Assuming the Frostheart is something you don`t want, based on comp, preference or whatever, you can swap it out for more characters and/or shooting.

As you can probably tell based on this, I`m a way bigger fan of PG than SM. SM basically have very little going for them in the current meta. Weak against too many things, strong against very few things. Unless comp is heavily biased I would just about never consider them.

PG on the other hand need some kind of offensive magic to work. High Magic is great, but a couple of offensive spells really makes them shine. Both the Loremaster, a Beasts Mage and a Shadow Mage can augment them sufficiently I believe.
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#3 Post by SpellArcher »

Lions with World Dragon might have worked if not for the comp. AM plus Swordmasters maybe. But rule those out and it's PG all the way I guess.

Why can't the bus grind?
Andros123
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#4 Post by Andros123 »

Thank you guys for your quick answers!

I just briefly gonna put my list up:

Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Potion of foolhardiness = 290
High Archmage Level 4, Obsidian lodestone, Iron curse Icon, Channel staff = 305
High Mage, Dispel Scroll = 145
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Lance, Sword of anti heroes, golden crown = 171
Characters = 893

10 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 260
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers = 80
18 archers, mus = 190
Core = 610

20 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 375
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & rare = 875

Army Total = 2396
Why can't the bus grind?
Well I have my prince, but that is really about it. All those s3 attacks is not really gonna grind anything. But I do have confidence in my bus to break almost anything on the charge, as long as it doesn't have ranks:).
You can read a number of infantry + cavbus reports here, more specifically the tournament games from Indian Summer, Swedish Master`s and games #14 -> #26.
Yeah I actually already read a lot of your stuff. Very interesting and well written.
I can see that you have been playing Phoenix guard a lot, along side your bus. What are the limitations of these guys in you opinion. I can't decide if I should go with high on the lvl. 2 or beast for the signature spell. I can't come up with any unit, that will beat 3++ phoenix guards, so that just seems very tempting.

Regarding your list Curu, doesn't it bother you not to have anything with flaming attacks in your army. For that reason I'm considering swapping some sisters for 1-2 boltthrowers, but I also love my boltthrowers:).
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

With the AM in the bus I'd consider upping it to at least 12. That and sticking Ogre Blade on the BSB should make it a bit more grindy.
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#6 Post by Curu Olannon »

What kind of comp are you designing for? The lack of BOTWD leaves the bus very exposed, to the point where I would consider a very different setup where PG might not be the best idea. I`m thinking L4 Life with Lodestone and Lions with Gleaming Pennant or something like that.

Limitations of PG are that their S4 is somewhat lacking, against anything from MCs to monsters they struggle. They are also vulnerable to being slowly but surely whittled down when there are no other threats. After all, a 4+ ward is basically just twice the wounds, so even 20PG go down as easily as 40SM (roughly) and 40SM is not that hard to kill for a lot of armies. Thus I think they need a secondary threat and/or better mobility and/or strong supporting spells. High Magic synergizes very well with them as it checks all these boxes, but alone it`s not enough. The fact that the high magic mage has to be in the unit is also inherently a problem seeing as pushing him to rank 2 is not trivial and it inherently leaves you vulnerable to Dwellers. An alternative is the gung-ho approach where you take a WS10 High Archmage with a 4++ and assume he`ll be fine, but I think you still need a backup caster with a strong supporting lore.

As for flaming attacks, go with Sisters if you feel the need for it :)

Lastly I agree with SA - the Archers seem amiss here. Get more cav ;)
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

Even with MR3 and Shield Curu?

Which threats do you consider make World Dragon almost essential?
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#8 Post by Curu Olannon »

DoC goes from a neutral matchup to a downright horrible one without BOTWD. Any GD is a huge threat after their gifts are rolled and even Beasts and flies suddenly do a lot of damage. Any fighter-lord equally so, for example our dark cousin the Dreadlord with the usual equipment will murder our cavprince with ease. Then there`s the impact from miscasts which is terrifying for our fragile elites and in this case, MR matters not. Lastly Dwarfs become an impossible matchup as their new shooting is just insane. Shield only goes so far. I can see a case being made for Life without BOTWD but even then, it`s risky business.
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#9 Post by HERO »

Andros123 wrote:Hello fellow generals!

I'll be running a cavalry bus with a prince, lvl. 4 and my BSB for an upcoming tournament. After much thought the rest of the army consists of archers, 3 bolt throwers, frostheart, reavers and block of infantry. I'm running high magic on the archmage and either heavens or high magic on a lvl. 2.

So my overall question is what infantry unit to bring in a cav bus setup like this?
I should mention that it is not possible to bring white lions with the banner of the world dragon, since it is heavily comped in this tournament.

My thoughts:
Love the swordmasters. However I'm not willing to place my lvl. 4 high mage with them, so sadly they are just to fragile.

White lions hit like a ton of bricks and definitely works well against anything with good armour. Especially a great counter to all that 1+ monstrous cavalry. However they also die way to easily. In close combat it is not a problem because they are stubborn, but at range they are too fragile. With Wood elves now having magical shooting the white lions get a ridicules 6+ AS against their arrows.
But the biggest concern I have is war machines versus both white lions and swordmasters. One single hit from a trebuchet or the skull cannon, and a unit of 25 guys are useless for the rest of the battle.

This draws me to the conclusion that only the phoenix guard can be the answer. I'll put a lvl. 2 high mage in there, to give them the 3++ when needed. They also give my list some grinding power, which the cav bus doesn't really have.

Any thoughts on why not to bring the phoenix guard? Unfortunately, they just seem to be the only viable option in competitive play at the moment.
Are you playing in comped or uncomped?
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#10 Post by Andros123 »

Are you playing in comped or uncomped?
Playing comped.
The system is a bit complicated. You are allowed to spend 5 "construction points" on your army. The idea is then to have the big nasty stuff cost construction points.
Overall restrictions:
• Warmachines cannot be duplicated, this includes the Steam Tank, Skull Cannon, Hellcannon and Ironblaster.
• Max 2 mounted hero/lords combined
• Characters will get "look out sir" versus the following spells that automatically kill models or automatically remove an entire regiment: Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation, Dreaded 13th. Normal requirements for lookout sir apply.
• Special characters are allowed
• Dispel scroll always costs 1 CP
• Max 3 monsters in the armylist
• Max 2 flying monsters
• Choosing Death/Shadow (2 CP) & special characters with access to these lores counts the characters CP + access to the lore. Example: Teclis/Loremaster/alike that only chooses 1 spell from a lore doesnt have to pay for access to shadow/death.
• You can use a max of four powerdice when casting spells. If casting spells from the Lore of: Fire, Beast, Nurgle, Lore of Nehekhara, Great maw, Little Waaargh, Anvil of doom or the Lore of the Wild, you can use a max of 5 dice.
CP can be used for:
o You get +1 when determining who gets the first turn. This is cumulative with the +1 for finishing deployment fist.
o Each CP not spent award you 75 points at the end of the battle
o Increasing the maximum unit size of a unit: Additional 10 models, if cavalry 5, if monstrous 3 – Cost 2 CP

For high elves it is:
• Star dragon, Moon dragon – 2 CP
• Each Frostheart Phoenix 2 CP
• Book of Hoeth 3 CP, 1 CP if on a Loremaster. Wizard Lord cannot combine it with Lore of Death or Shadow.
• Banner of the World Dragon on: Swordmasters 1 CP, Phoenix Guards 2 CP, Dragon Princes, Battle Standard Bearer or White Lions 3 CP.
• The second unit of White Lions 1 CP
• Number of Bolt throwers 2 units 1 CP, 3 units 2 CP, 4 units 3 CP. You are allowed to
duplicate this warmachine
• The third unit of Ellyrian Reavers 1 CP
• Number of models with Bows, any kind: 35 models 1 CP, 45 models 2 CP, 60 models 3 CP,
70+ models 4 CP.
• Lore of Shadow and/ or Death in the army 2 CP. The Loremaster/Teclis does not count as a Death/ Shadow user.
• Crown of command 2 CP
• Alarielle 2 CP
• Teclis 4 CP, spells must be chosen before the tournament begins, written on your armylist.
• One of the following units can be bought with a 100 points discount for the cost of 1 CP: Dragonmage, Flamespyre Phoenix. This option can be chosen only once.


So this system really forces you to bring something entirely else:).
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#11 Post by Andros123 »

Lastly Dwarfs become an impossible matchup as their new shooting is just insane.
Lots of warmachines are comped in this tournament, so it would be difficult for a dwarf player to bring a heavy gunline.
Anyway, one of the purposes of bringing archers are to take out these warmachines early on in the game.
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#12 Post by Curu Olannon »

You could have just said Giant Fanatic, I am familiar with it ;) I have a couple of concept lists around, will get back to this later on. I suppose my main question is why you insist on running a cavbus under a comp that penalizes it so hard?
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#13 Post by Andros123 »

You could have just said Giant Fanatic, I am familiar with it ;) I have a couple of concept lists around, will get back to this later on. I suppose my main question is why you insist on running a cavbus under a comp that penalizes it so hard?
Hehe, all right :) .
Well I don't think it is penalized especially hard. I can have the characters I want in there, and I can spend 1 CP and go for 15 helms, which I'm still considering. Also you have to consider, that if I bring more than 35 bows or a third unit of reavers I have to spend an additional CP. That really limits my options in core, since I don't want to bring spearmen, which means that I have to take silver Helms. First I started with 10 silverhelms and only the prince in there. After a couple of games i decided to put both the mage and the BSB in there, and really get the most out of high lore attribute.

The thing with this system is that i kind of forces you to bring something "balanced". Then the question is what our most competitive balanced lists are :? .
With the frost Phoenix having a price tag of 2 construction points, I'm also considering leaving it at home..
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#14 Post by Curu Olannon »

GF only allows 2 mounted characters, which is the main issue for our bus. Currently then, your suggestion is illegal. Furthermore the comp is biased towards BOTWD on the BSB, DP and WL, making it nigh on impossible to get a decent bunker with BOTWD running unless you run with Swordmasters.

There are loopholes here though, but they are not related to our usual builds. Swordmasters can conceivably work (playtesting needed) seeing as everyone else receives hard comp as well but I think our true strength under GF comp revolves around either PG or monsters, neither of which are particularly hard to build lists around.
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#15 Post by Andros123 »

GF only allows 2 mounted characters, which is the main issue for our bus.
Arg akward - you are right. Back to list building :roll:

Swordmasters with the banner could work, but they just die to a lot of warmachines. With white lions you'll get at least a 5+ AS, however 3 CP is a lot to spend on them.
I also made some lists around to big blocks of infantry, no frostie and with a decent amount of shooting for board control. I guess that is a more viable solution, the way I see it.
Bringing both the Alith Anar, the reaver bow + pot of strength BSB, 2 boltthrowers and some archers should draw out most armies. In close combat I would then have the Phoenix guard and white lions/swordmasters to mob up the rest.
Anyway thanks for pointing out the error in my list :)
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#16 Post by SpellArcher »

Given the comp Andros, why would you not be willing to deploy your AM with Swordmasters?
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#17 Post by Andros123 »

Given the comp Andros, why would you not be willing to deploy your AM with Swordmasters?
Well to begin with, it was because I wanted him in the cav bus. Also from my experience with the swordmasters, I learned that you just cannot rely on getting those crucial ward saves up when needed.
However with this comp system, I'm considering going 25 swordmasters with the banner and high mage. Maybe also adding Korhil to make the unit stubborn. I just find these guys pretty hard to play. Yes they have great killing potential, but they die way to easily. With white lions it is not that big of a problem, because they are stubborn and Phoenix guards just don't really loose combat.
In my opinion both the white lions and the swordmasters need the banner, especially with the new wood elves out there.
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Re: What infantry unit should go with the Cav bus?

#18 Post by Curu Olannon »

I think there are 2 approaches that would be interesting to exploit with this comp. First, Korhil provides stubborn without costing anything. This allows SM to act as WL. WMs are not that big of a problem with High Magic. A bigger problem is having to expend CP for shooting. I don`t think this is worth it. Anyway, going infantry with High Magic is one way: either with SM or with PG I think this can work.

The other is to go with monsters. You can get SD + Frostheart and a scroll. The support won`t be amazing but with everything else being comped hard as well, SD + Frostie alone are pretty hard to deal with. You are limited to a single mounted hero but a BSB with Dawnstone + Enchanted Shield on a Great Eagle would make for a terrifying assault party for example. Perhaps an even better approach is to leave the SD at home in favour of the Flamespyre Anointed, this allows you to field 3 RBTs as well for the same amount of CP, or take 2 and get the BOTWD for your mages (Swordmasters + 2x L2 + SD + Frostheart + 2 RBTs sounds pretty decent to me) etc. With this last setup I think you can even take Korhil for a stubborn BOTWD bunker for your mages ^^
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