How to use a Beast AM

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Dragon fire
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How to use a Beast AM

#1 Post by Dragon fire »

I really want to try out a beast AM. I like more or less every beast spell i the Lore, my problem is to find a way to make the Lore synergies with the overall roster.
My thinking so far is as follows:
When you say beast your get wyssians and possibly savage beast.
Savage beasts synergies well with reaver bow noble/handmaiden. So BSB equipment here?
Wyssians synergies well with PG with razor standard
PG's synergies well with high, so a possible the lore for a lvl 2 here.

Overall the lore is well suited for a lot of characters, on the other hand it requires the characters to be within a short range (12") so you cannot just let the AM hang back in a unit of archers while your infantry/cavalry blocks goes hunting.

But what do your rosters contain when going for the beast AM? where is the synergy with the HE rosters and tactics.
GrinningB@est
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#2 Post by GrinningB@est »

I've had similar trains of thought lately. With their built in re-rolls, HE characters are well positioned to take advantage of additional strength and attacks

PG xwhatever, Razor Standard

Prince- Armor of Destiny, Halberd, Obsidian Trinket, Dragon Bane Gem

BSB- Dragon Armor, Halberd, Iron Curse Icon EDIT: and Talisman of Preservation, sorry!

All three above together. I like the fire resistance because you can hold up a unit easy that way.

Lvl 4 Beasts, choice of gear

In choice of bunker, 15 or so spearmen would be a good choice, or maybe archers. No matter what you pick, he needs to stay close enough to the PG that the two characters there would benefit from a bubble'd savage beast. You could also put the Lvl 4 in with them and drop the Prince, but that's riskier.

He also synergizes well with a unit of three Tiranoc chariots, so if you were looking for an excuse to bring them, here it is! They of course would require good target saturation to be effective, so that means bringing double frosties. Such a difficult choice, I know. Fill the rest of core with silverhelms (another good synergistic choice-hit at S6 or grind at S4) and archers, and you're just about at 2k. DP's, or whatever you want can fill the rest.
Last edited by GrinningB@est on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
popquq
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#3 Post by popquq »

Hi all!

I have been playing around with this idea as well for a while, but I have not had the guts to try is out yet...

My idea about lore of beasts is to go bretonnian on there behind, go for a lvl 4 archmage, a Prince, a BSB with BOTWD and a second noble to put the BSB in the second rank of your silverhelm bus. I would also try to get in a scroll cady depending on local meta/ Points total. Then run reavers double frosty and eagles, or one frosty 4 RBTs and eagles.

I have never tried this, and it is not the best build that we can do, but it offers us so much more then just a bus, it takes away the rubberlance effect if your opponent does not dispell every spell of course...

Tell me what you Think.

Popquq
Viale
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#4 Post by Viale »

I don't understand what you mean about rubberlance syndrome affecting us could you elaborate?

As far as I can tell we are one of the few armies who don't suffer from that wretched disease due to always strikes first and the re-rolls it grants. I think we can be just as good or better at playing the Bretonian game than they can. This is due to high magic, ASF, Fight in extra ranks and some very effective monsters/support.
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Count
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#5 Post by Count »

Viale wrote:I don't understand what you mean about rubberlance syndrome affecting us could you elaborate?
If lance unit on charge can fail it would. Bigger unit - bigger chance of fail.
popquq
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#6 Post by popquq »

Thank you for your response Viale. I will try to explain what I meant by my earlier post.
1, the rubber lance effect can happen to us all. Flubb your rolls and great charge might turn out bad for you. After all weare only strength 5 on the charge but with wyssans you can increase this to be alot stronger.

2, As you said we can do this better then bretonnia, but we are still suffering from the rubber lance effect, just ask seridian or Curu if they have had this problem, and I have read alot from there blogs.

3, Alot can happen when you set up a charge. They can hex you or buff there unit in such ways that makes you inable go win that combat.

Anyway that's the way I see it.

popquq
Viale
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#7 Post by Viale »

Ok, I assumed rubberlance only referred to your unit fluffing its initial to-hit rolls on the charge thereby wasting all those precious high strength lance attacks. I didn't know it also referred to the to-wound rolls.
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finreir
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#8 Post by finreir »

I regularly use beast wizards and a percentage of my lists are l4 on beasts.
I would suggest a couple of different options.
One the lore master used in conjunction with the beasts l4 makes up for several of the lores deficiencies
Alternately and used more commonly in the mounted list a high wizard level 2 with ring does the same job in filling the holes.

There is then 2 options in terms of play to make this work IMHO
Noble cav spam
Or
Either prince on horse or Annointed on foot

With either of these PG on foot with razor banner just seem to make most sense

I'm sure there are other ways to go but this is how I think, please dm me if you would like my lists I used with high beasts combos etc over the last year I would be happy to send to you. The thing I like about this style is most of the time you don't have to death star to much certainly not of you want to do well with the list
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cptcosmic
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#9 Post by cptcosmic »

In the past I used a lvl4 beastmage with fencers blades, 4+ ward and energy stone, supported by a lvl2 beastmage with scroll.

not the most viable build but really fun. never gets old to see peoples faces when you get off curse and tell them they need a 6 to hit your archmage, when you turn your mage into a ASF dragon at the right time or when your noble bsb turns into a killing machine. spears and helms with wildform are nothing to scoff at either and if you put your archmage on horse into helms you can get off nice amber spears into flanks easier 8)
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#10 Post by SpellArcher »

Beasts doesn't put much pressure on early game because often the only spell that needs stopping is Amber Spear (sometimes Curse) and sometimes not even that. Once you've got something in combat that changes of course. With a solo lvl4 I tried not to rely too much on Savage Beast and instead built a strategy around Wildform, Curse and the Spear. The latter is of course a great dice-drainer for getting Wildform off.
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Prince of Spires
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#11 Post by Prince of Spires »

It's why you bring a backup mage who is also can pose a threat early game. And having one or two spells that can draw a scroll early game is valuable in and of itself, even if that means it never gets cast. Something like searing doom, miasma, spirit leech can really put on the hurt early game.

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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#12 Post by SpellArcher »

Couldn't agree more Rod.

:)
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Curu Olannon
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#13 Post by Curu Olannon »

It`s the same reason why Shadow often struggles. If you don`t threaten anything with Pit or Withering (or don`t roll it), people save their scroll until combat starts and that critical mindrazor gets stopped.

The problem with a support caster is that almost regardless of what lore you pick, it won`t always be scroll-worthy. Elves largely don`t care about neither Spirit Leech nor Searing Doom (an exception for the latter being Star Dragon) for example.

The only lore I`ve found to "usually" provide a scroll-worthy spell is High Magic. Though somewhat underwhelming on paper compared to uber-spells like Dwellers and Purple Sun, both Arcane Unforging, Walk Between Worlds and Fiery Convocation are able to draw scrolls. In certain matchups, boosted Soul Quench can also draw a scroll. Couple this with the fact that Drain Magic is among the best signature spells in the game in a lot of matchups and you have a lore that is looking very appealing to pick on your support mage.

To make an entire list based on Beasts I think I`d take a cavbus (savage beast on a cavprince is 7 S10 attacks. Yikes!) and PG. Backupmage with High Magic in PG ;)
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finreir
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#14 Post by finreir »

Curu Olannon wrote:It`s the same reason why Shadow often struggles. If you don`t threaten anything with Pit or Withering (or don`t roll it), people save their scroll until combat starts and that critical mindrazor gets stopped.

The problem with a support caster is that almost regardless of what lore you pick, it won`t always be scroll-worthy. Elves largely don`t care about neither Spirit Leech nor Searing Doom (an exception for the latter being Star Dragon) for example.

The only lore I`ve found to "usually" provide a scroll-worthy spell is High Magic. Though somewhat underwhelming on paper compared to uber-spells like Dwellers and Purple Sun, both Arcane Unforging, Walk Between Worlds and Fiery Convocation are able to draw scrolls. In certain matchups, boosted Soul Quench can also draw a scroll. Couple this with the fact that Drain Magic is among the best signature spells in the game in a lot of matchups and you have a lore that is looking very appealing to pick on your support mage.

To make an entire list based on Beasts I think I`d take a cavbus (savage beast on a cavprince is 7 S10 attacks. Yikes!) and PG. Backupmage with High Magic in PG ;)
Every list I write has a level 2 high caster in 21-24 PG some of the reasons are above,
As I wrote above with beasts you need this little guy, for what it's worth he also works in dragon princes or silver helms to up their ward as well if you would rather the beast Mage on foot to make use of transformation. Ultimately asf mountain chimeras are made of win we all know it :P
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#15 Post by wisetiger7 »

I posted on this idea a while back, but for the life of me can't find it now. I call it "Savage Knights of Horros".

-Prince with Blade of Leaping Gold, Golden Crown, Pot Str, and full getup (dragon armor, elven steed, barding, shield)
-L4 beasts with steed and book
-Noble BSB with Banner of the World Dragon, lance, dragon armor shield, steed, barding
-Noble with Star Lance, enchanted shield, dragon armor, steed, barding
-Noble with lance, dragon armor, steed, barding
-Noble with lance, dragon armor, steed, barding
All bunkered in Silver Helms or Dragon Princes.

All Nobles and Prince in front (make way), command and L4 in the second rank.
Charge, then 6-dice bubbled Savage Beast, Book to help irresistable, banner to protect against miscast damage.

Prince has 10 attacks at S7, S10 if you use potion. 6's to wound ignore AS.
Star Lance Noble has 7 attacks S10, no AS allowed.
The other three Nobles each have 7 attacks at S9.

That's 38 S9-10 attacks with ASF and most likely rerolls, not to mention 9 more supporting attacks at S5 (princes or helms) and another S6 by the L4, totalling 48 attacks. And you can fit those characters in a 2400 point game.
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#16 Post by Curu Olannon »

wisetiger7 wrote:I posted on this idea a while back, but for the life of me can't find it now. I call it "Savage Knights of Horros".

-Prince with Blade of Leaping Gold, Golden Crown, Pot Str, and full getup (dragon armor, elven steed, barding, shield)
-L4 beasts with steed and book
-Noble BSB with Banner of the World Dragon, lance, dragon armor shield, steed, barding
-Noble with Star Lance, enchanted shield, dragon armor, steed, barding
-Noble with lance, dragon armor, steed, barding
-Noble with lance, dragon armor, steed, barding
All bunkered in Silver Helms or Dragon Princes.

All Nobles and Prince in front (make way), command and L4 in the second rank.
Charge, then 6-dice bubbled Savage Beast, Book to help irresistable, banner to protect against miscast damage.

Prince has 10 attacks at S7, S10 if you use potion. 6's to wound ignore AS.
Star Lance Noble has 7 attacks S10, no AS allowed.
The other three Nobles each have 7 attacks at S9.

That's 38 S9-10 attacks with ASF and most likely rerolls, not to mention 9 more supporting attacks at S5 (princes or helms) and another S6 by the L4, totalling 48 attacks. And you can fit those characters in a 2400 point game.
How would you draw the scroll? How would you handle WE? LZ? DE? Dwellers? What if someone hits you with enough static/power to break you, there is no stubborn here? What about OK with Hellheart?

It is very powerful on paper, but pulling it off in action is very risky, to the point where you can`t reliably do so 5 games in a row. These types of builds frequently appear once in a while, the faction varies (OK, HE, DE for example) but the point is the same and they all eventually suffer from a combination of being very one dimensional, thus having some extremely bad matchups and being dicey: When the winds/casts don`t go your way in a critical turn it all falls apart.
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finreir
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#17 Post by finreir »

wisetiger7 wrote:I posted on this idea a while back, but for the life of me can't find it now. I call it "Savage Knights of Horros".

-Prince with Blade of Leaping Gold, Golden Crown, Pot Str, and full getup (dragon armor, elven steed, barding, shield)
-L4 beasts with steed and book
-Noble BSB with Banner of the World Dragon, lance, dragon armor shield, steed, barding
-Noble with Star Lance, enchanted shield, dragon armor, steed, barding
-Noble with lance, dragon armor, steed, barding
-Noble with lance, dragon armor, steed, barding
All bunkered in Silver Helms or Dragon Princes.

All Nobles and Prince in front (make way), command and L4 in the second rank.
Charge, then 6-dice bubbled Savage Beast, Book to help irresistable, banner to protect against miscast damage.

Prince has 10 attacks at S7, S10 if you use potion. 6's to wound ignore AS.
Star Lance Noble has 7 attacks S10, no AS allowed.
The other three Nobles each have 7 attacks at S9.

That's 38 S9-10 attacks with ASF and most likely rerolls, not to mention 9 more supporting attacks at S5 (princes or helms) and another S6 by the L4, totalling 48 attacks. And you can fit those characters in a 2400 point game.
Looks really good fun for a one off event I did a lion and a dragon prince bus with a book of hoeth arch Mage in the last army book to SCGT and had a ball.
However if you think it will win events then I doubt it unless the draw goes in your favour somehow. On a slightly related top I really like the Annointed on foot with blade of leaping gold if a beast Mage is in army it's not optimal again but for certain comps like Swedish is fun and tbh really isn't that bad.
My only disappointed with the list above is it's a super huge Death Star with banner of the world dragon and I don't like them, but the concept it's with beasts and you are just trying to run people over I like
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wisetiger7
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#18 Post by wisetiger7 »

Wyssan's is still a very powerful spell for a cav unit, especially with S6 lance/cav characters with 3-4 attacks each. Being T4 adds a little protection, and BotWD even moreso. It's not the perfect list by any means. It's just fun to get the combo off and see your the look of ridiculousness on your opponent's face.

You're right, in that this list is not designed to pull off "5 games in a row". Heck, there will be games where you might not even generate Savage Beast. But here's the thing: The rest of Lore of Beasts is fairly strong, especially the signature spell. It helps lowly T3 elves with a little durability while adding some punch. Coupled with ASF, they should be exceptionally strong on the charge. You simply have to pick your battles. Just because you have this unit doesn't mean you throw HE strategy out the window. You still want to set up favorable combats, redirect with eagles and reavers, and combo charge the living hell out of the enemy post-attrition.

BUT, if you do get it off, it will be entirely devastating. It's not a one and done unit. It is a 'new and improved' unit. There are ways to combat it, just like there are ways to combat any unit/idea in this game.

PS. It is better to 6-dice Savage Beast for the IF, so they can't use the scroll if they have one. But another solid way to draw a scroll is Amber Spear. Threatening to blast a lone model off the board first turn can really help persuade them to scroll early. Then second or third turn, when you can actually charge, throw the dice at Savage Beast.

Remember, this unit is still a very good, solid combat unit, even without spells... as long as you are using them intelligently.
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#19 Post by cptcosmic »

I disagree about lack of theats early with beast lore. it is not a comet or pit but threat is still there.

savage beast on reaver bow wielding handmaiden
amber spear on expensive stuff
& you can add a ring with bound spell for versatility
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Re: How to use a Beast AM

#20 Post by SpellArcher »

I feel it largely depends on whether you have decent targets.

A HE list without monsters for example is harder to pressurize.
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