Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

Discuss your tactics for the 8th Ed army book here.

Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters

Message
Author
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#1 Post by Ferny »

Under what circumstances would you consider two frosties to be better or worse than 4xRBTs and a single frost bird?

Are there match ups which particularly favour one over the other?

Are there builds which favour one over the other?

For reference, I play 2,400 in UK with no to light comp (invariably TLoS).

I'm currently planning this in the context of a monster lord (probably dragonprince), helm 'bus' with 2xhigh mages and BotWD BSB, some reaver/eagle chaff and there's not a lot left in terms of points now...maybe shadow warriors. However, I'm still interested in this more theoretically with other builds.
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#2 Post by Curu Olannon »

The most obvious choice is of course the double frostie. The redundancy is ridiculous and 3 flying monsters this strong will alone win games, you won`t even need the rest of your army. In an uncomped environment, I would take this any day I think (yes I just took the opposite to an uncomped tournament but that is because I prioritize another tournament higher and I am preparing for that).

With that said, RBTs provide a lot of flexibility that you don`t get otherwise. It adds an element that I have become so used to playing with that it`s hard for me to really appreciate it ("you don`t know what you have till it`s gone"). I do know however that in some games, RBTs are just MVPs: they can scythe down Elves or put a dent in Steam Tanks, possibly rendering them useless all game. They can zone Daemon Princes and force Wood Elves to choose their scouting placements carefully. On the other hand, they are useless in quite a few matchups as well, Chaos Dwarfs, Orcs and Goblins (some configurations) and Skaven spring to mind.

In the end I don`t have the necessary experience with 2 Frosties (or no RBTs for that matter) to make a proper comparison, but I would go for the 2 Frosthearts simply because 3 monsters like this is brutal. If the context is a non-Dragonlord I`d have to re-evaluate based on the list, I think a Coven of Light would be better served with RBTs for example.
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
User avatar
HERO
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#3 Post by HERO »

4x RBTs help you win the chaff war whereas 2x Frosties offer the beats.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45884][img]http://i.imgur.com/EvidzNv.jpg[/img][/url]
[i]Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica![/i]
[url=http://lkhero.blogspot.com/][size=150]HERO's Gaming Blog[/size][/url]
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#4 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:If the context is a non-Dragonlord I`d have to re-evaluate based on the list, I think a Coven of Light would be better served with RBTs for example.
In so far as I have uncertainty about the rest of my list, it is whether to take star dragon and prince or annointed on second/third frosty. I like the idea of the dragon - it's a dragon, what's not to like (and the breath weapon and redundancy of frost aura it synergises better IMO) - but I'm concious of TLoS making it vulnerable, hence the trade-off between stompy stompy glory in a puff of smoke vs grindy grindy reliability. That said, I don't really have enough XP with either approach to truly judge which suits me/my meta better. I think you're right about the coven approach though.
The most obvious choice is of course the double frostie. The redundancy is ridiculous and 3 flying monsters this strong will alone win games, you won`t even need the rest of your army. In an uncomped environment, I would take this any day I think (yes I just took the opposite to an uncomped tournament but that is because I prioritize another tournament higher and I am preparing for that).

With that said, RBTs provide a lot of flexibility that you don`t get otherwise. It adds an element that I have become so used to playing with that it`s hard for me to really appreciate it ("you don`t know what you have till it`s gone"). I do know however that in some games, RBTs are just MVPs: they can scythe down Elves or put a dent in Steam Tanks, possibly rendering them useless all game. They can zone Daemon Princes and force Wood Elves to choose their scouting placements carefully. On the other hand, they are useless in quite a few matchups as well, Chaos Dwarfs, Orcs and Goblins (some configurations) and Skaven spring to mind.

In the end I don`t have the necessary experience with 2 Frosties (or no RBTs for that matter) to make a proper comparison, but I would go for the 2 Frosthearts simply because 3 monsters like this is brutal.
Thanks - that's exactly the sort of breakdown I'm interested in. To be honest, I never (used to?) rate RBTs so I'm not that used to playing either of these options. At the moment I only own a single phoenix model (and two dragons :roll: ) so I'm leaning towards RBTs by default, but I prefer list building based on effectiveness rather than model availability, which by hook or by crook can always be solved. Either way, this is gonna be a fast list to play - I will reach turn 6!!
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#5 Post by Curu Olannon »

TLoS will hurt you regardless of choice. Only way to work around this is a Flamespyre, which is really risky to target seeing as he can gain a LOT of movement AFTER the enemy has moved. This changes the whole list drastically though and as I have 0 experience with this I wouldn`t know what to recommend. I`d say the SD is likely to be the best choice here. Double High Magic for backup should allow you to force through Apotheosis, meaning that with 3 beasts you should hopefully reach combat with significant numbers despite enemy artillery.
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

I agree Ferny.

If you've got the list in your head you'll find a way to get the models sorted!

:)
User avatar
HERO
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#7 Post by HERO »

I have exp with the following list:
Prince on Star Dragon, Star Lance variant
BSB Noble 1+ RR
Lv.2 High Mage, Scroll, RoKhaine
2x Great Eagles
Silver Helm bus core
3x Reavers core
Dragon Prince bus with BotWD

It does exactly what you think it does:
Moves really well, Eagles/Reavers block, combo charge and kill the rest.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45884][img]http://i.imgur.com/EvidzNv.jpg[/img][/url]
[i]Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica![/i]
[url=http://lkhero.blogspot.com/][size=150]HERO's Gaming Blog[/size][/url]
Ether Dude
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#8 Post by Ether Dude »

Double frosty if you can get away with it. RBTs will be at -2 or more to hit and the d3 wounds means that even the times they hit, wound, and get through any relevant ward save, they will not solve the problems that frosty can sequester and occasionally defeat.

Winning the "chaff" war is of little value; anything that is dangerous either flies or rolls power dice and therefore ignores what chaff is meant to do: contain units. Units are a burden and entirely unnecessary. Their only role is to provide ablative wounds for the characters hiding within who do the lifting.

You're already going monster heavy, so if cannons really do worry you, then there's no reason to take RBTs. The RBT is more likely to succumb to a single cannon shot and offers little if any return threat. The phoenix, on the other hand, is a threat and has to be dealt with immediately, instead of at leisure.

As far as shooting goes, if it's not a cannon, don't bother. [Woodelves excepted, trueflight arrows are beyond good].
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#9 Post by Ferny »

HERO wrote:I have exp with the following list:
Prince on Star Dragon, Star Lance variant
BSB Noble 1+ RR
Lv.2 High Mage, Scroll, RoKhaine
2x Great Eagles
Silver Helm bus core
3x Reavers core
Dragon Prince bus with BotWD

It does exactly what you think it does:
Moves really well, Eagles/Reavers block, combo charge and kill the rest.
How do you find the lack of shooting and low magic?
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
Optimistic
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:33 am

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#10 Post by Optimistic »

Dual frost chickens + the star dragon and helm core is very very nasty, it pretty much plays itself. The 4 RBT's I find lend themselves more to a traditional list, with an archmage and infantry blocks. They provide great fire support, but a coin flip to hit and wound (at best) versus the things you need to damage, is a dicey proposition.
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#11 Post by Ferny »

Does star dragon + 2xfrosties play like the infamous triple chimera chariot spam list?
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
User avatar
HERO
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#12 Post by HERO »

Ferny wrote:
HERO wrote:I have exp with the following list:
Prince on Star Dragon, Star Lance variant
BSB Noble 1+ RR
Lv.2 High Mage, Scroll, RoKhaine
2x Great Eagles
Silver Helm bus core
3x Reavers core
Dragon Prince bus with BotWD

It does exactly what you think it does:
Moves really well, Eagles/Reavers block, combo charge and kill the rest.
How do you find the lack of shooting and low magic?
Shooting, doesn't matter. You either deploy right and make the right opening moves on T1 or you lose vs. cannons. The idea is to setup an unwinnable combat scenario where you can crush whatever you hit while threatening to flank charge next turn with DPs or Helms. At the same time, using your Eagles and Reavers to re-direct any ideas of a counter.

Low Magic is fine, just throw cheap spells and increase ward saves on the DP, since they're pretty much worthless after the charge. They're only there to add the +1 BSB, +1 Standard, +1 rank, +1 flank.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45884][img]http://i.imgur.com/EvidzNv.jpg[/img][/url]
[i]Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica![/i]
[url=http://lkhero.blogspot.com/][size=150]HERO's Gaming Blog[/size][/url]
User avatar
HERO
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#13 Post by HERO »

Ferny wrote:Does star dragon + 2xfrosties play like the infamous triple chimera chariot spam list?
You will almost certainly lose that because there's not much to get rid of Regen on those Chimeras.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45884][img]http://i.imgur.com/EvidzNv.jpg[/img][/url]
[i]Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica![/i]
[url=http://lkhero.blogspot.com/][size=150]HERO's Gaming Blog[/size][/url]
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#14 Post by SpellArcher »

Units can't get cannoned off in one or two shots ED. Star Dragon/double Frostheart is powerful but it has weaknesses just like any other HE build.

So it's not worth taking redirectors? That Vamp bus/Beast block/Destroyer isn't worth stopping before it hits? It's not worth taking RBT's to keep Monsters/MC/enemy redirectors (High Elf cav bus is a strong build) honest? All the ETC lists for example seem to disagree.
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#15 Post by Ferny »

HERO wrote:
Ferny wrote:
HERO wrote:I have exp with the following list:
Prince on Star Dragon, Star Lance variant
BSB Noble 1+ RR
Lv.2 High Mage, Scroll, RoKhaine
2x Great Eagles
Silver Helm bus core
3x Reavers core
Dragon Prince bus with BotWD

It does exactly what you think it does:
Moves really well, Eagles/Reavers block, combo charge and kill the rest.
How do you find the lack of shooting and low magic?
Shooting, doesn't matter. You either deploy right and make the right opening moves on T1 or you lose vs. cannons. The idea is to setup an unwinnable combat scenario where you can crush whatever you hit while threatening to flank charge next turn with DPs or Helms. At the same time, using your Eagles and Reavers to re-direct any ideas of a counter.

Low Magic is fine, just throw cheap spells and increase ward saves on the DP, since they're pretty much worthless after the charge. They're only there to add the +1 BSB, +1 Standard, +1 rank, +1 flank.
If you find them that rubbish why not switch them out for core helms, give the BSB the banner and save yourself points for either a second frosty or the RBTs or another noble or whatever?
HERO wrote:
Ferny wrote:Does star dragon + 2xfrosties play like the infamous triple chimera chariot spam list?
You will almost certainly lose that because there's not much to get rid of Regen on those Chimeras.
I figure it wouldn't be a great match up for us, but I meant more in terms of would our 3 monster list (plus bus?) play like their 3 monster list (plus spam)?
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
User avatar
HERO
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#16 Post by HERO »

Nah, they're not rubbish in the slightest. I think they're incredible at 29 ppm, one of the best knight choices in the game. 2 attacks each I6 WS5 is phenom, especially when they're a rapier that just adds an incredible amount of CR to any combat you want them in.

You're already packing 2x Frosties and a Star Dragon in that list. What more do you want? :D
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45884][img]http://i.imgur.com/EvidzNv.jpg[/img][/url]
[i]Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica![/i]
[url=http://lkhero.blogspot.com/][size=150]HERO's Gaming Blog[/size][/url]
pk-ng
Posts: 2062
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:39 pm
Location: Cathy

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#17 Post by pk-ng »

Ether Dude wrote:RBTs will be at -2 or more to hit and the d3 wounds means that even the times they hit, wound, and get through any relevant ward save, they will not solve the problems that frosty can sequester and occasionally defeat.
I don't get why -2...

Anyway @ Ferny
2 frosties for sure
a) It flies as ED as said fliers can usually ignore chaff therefore you don't really need that many chaff clearing units
b) Target saturation. Cannon can't shoot everything off the board
c) Harder for you to bleed points but this is match up dependent.
ETC WHFB Team Singapore
2014 - Chaos Dwarfs & Most Favoured Enemy
2015 - High Elves & Top HE

T9A
Highborn Elves - Army Book Committee
Balancing Board
Highborn Elves - ex-Army Support
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8249
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#18 Post by Prince of Spires »

pk-ng wrote: I don't get why -2...
I'm guessing he means anything worth shooting with them will be either in long range + light cover or in hard cover.

While I don't think it's that bad, having a -1 to hit modifier is common. There is always something bound to be in the way. And a 4+ to hit then is the weak spot for RBT.

Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#19 Post by SpellArcher »

Yeah it's powerful.

But what if you're facing Empire Coven with 3 cannon? He rolls OK, it's very bad news. RBT may not be the right choice here but virtually every other competitive HE build has them.
Ether Dude
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#20 Post by Ether Dude »

SpellArcher wrote:Units can't get cannoned off in one or two shots ED. Star Dragon/double Frostheart is powerful but it has weaknesses just like any other HE build.
Hmm, not sure I follow. Units won't get cannoned off, but the choice here is between RBTs and frosty.
SpellArcher wrote:So it's not worth taking redirectors? That Vamp bus/Beast block/Destroyer isn't worth stopping before it hits? It's not worth taking RBT's to keep Monsters/MC/enemy redirectors (High Elf cav bus is a strong build) honest?
This is my position when we are talking about a star dragon list. If you are taking an army that moves 18"+ every turn, the large slow units that you cite are not a threat.

Again, in the case of the star dragon list, the silver helm bus is not there to do damage. It's a bunker for 2 lvl 2 wizards and the banner of the world dragon bsb. Towards the end of the game, it can be used to break ranks on steadfast blocks, but only if points are needed to secure the 20-0.

The dragons and phoenixes can't be blocked and unless the opponent is playing defensively, they can charge most non-deathstars with impunity, especially because they can choose what they go into. Fly means that chaff is useless, and since the entire combat power of the list is rocking flight, chaff really isn't that big of a deal.
SpellArcher wrote:All the ETC lists for example seem to disagree.
IIRC, there were 0 star dragons and heavily comped frost phoenixes. Additionally the format of the tournament mandates small wins (12-8) and defensive play. This is a poor example and does not pertain to this discussion.

Now, if we were talking traditional defensive lists, I would agree with you, but those are going the way of the dodo and I expect them to be completely gone in competitive play before too long.
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#21 Post by Curu Olannon »

ETC lists are capped at 1 Frostheart if you take the SD, hence the RBTs. SD can be blocked though. I agree that in general, double Frost is stronger. It`s also actually cheaper AND allows you to fit 2 Eagles in.
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#22 Post by SpellArcher »

The basic point is that if you bring a 3-monster list to a tourney that doesn't use SLoS you are giving an opponent with cannon a better chance to win by dice alone. You are polarizing your match-ups. An army with units doesn't allow a weaker player the same opportunity to beat you just because his cannon rolled well.

The units I described are M6/Swiftstride at worst. Against a good player a flyer list will find approach routes restricted by threat of charge and magic/shooting deployed to cover the gaps. The flyers cannot charge good units like Beasts with impunity because they'll stick and enemy buffs or support charges then come into play.

Enemy chaff is less important vs this list it's true. But your own is important to block off the support charges described above. Enemy archery etc will remove it unless you have a way to remove the enemy archers. You can actually use chaff to counter flyers but it's fiddly and requires skill.

No the ETC wasn't a poor example. This event is the highest concentration of top-class players in the world. Some chose to bring monster lords. Many didn't despite SLoS and the point made was that RBT aren't worth taking anyway, which is not the case. Look at almost any competitive Cav Bus list in almost any environment, it will have RBT. Coven, Alarielle/Teclis lists, double block Shadow + support lists all have them and do very well. Outmoded? That remains to be proved.
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#23 Post by Ferny »

SpellArcher wrote:The basic point is that if you bring a 3-monster list to a tourney that doesn't use SLoS you are giving an opponent with cannon a better chance to win by dice alone. You are polarizing your match-ups. An army with units doesn't allow a weaker player the same opportunity to beat you just because his cannon rolled well...
To a certain extent that's true of any DragonLord list, whether you take the frosties or not (also for Annointed on bird, but less likely). But by taking *more* monsters you're creating target saturation. I know by taking a dragon prince I'm creating a match-up dynamic and I go with a second for target saturation/force concentration. But the decision of a third monster vs something else - which I took to be 4xRBT from what I've read, but I guess it could be a smallish unit of lions/PG or a tooled up dragon princes or whatever - that's where I'd like to know which option is considered better. As part of that I'd be interested - do you think the third monster makes the list *even more* polarised than it already is? I wouldn't have thought so, but I could be swayed.
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
User avatar
finreir
Posts: 722
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:57 pm

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#24 Post by finreir »

Ferny wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:The basic point is that if you bring a 3-monster list to a tourney that doesn't use SLoS you are giving an opponent with cannon a better chance to win by dice alone. You are polarizing your match-ups. An army with units doesn't allow a weaker player the same opportunity to beat you just because his cannon rolled well...
To a certain extent that's true of any DragonLord list, whether you take the frosties or not (also for Annointed on bird, but less likely). But by taking *more* monsters you're creating target saturation. I know by taking a dragon prince I'm creating a match-up dynamic and I go with a second for target saturation/force concentration. But the decision of a third monster vs something else - which I took to be 4xRBT from what I've read, but I guess it could be a smallish unit of lions/PG or a tooled up dragon princes or whatever - that's where I'd like to know which option is considered better. As part of that I'd be interested - do you think the third monster makes the list *even more* polarised than it already is? I wouldn't have thought so, but I could be swayed.
I've run monster mash, it's real gun but overly draw dependant outside of slos
I think you need
Mounted frostie or dragon
Mixed units
And rare of rbt and frostie
To put good presure on in all phases
However the concept of using rbt to have something in the lists not cannon vulnerable is wrong
Because they are also free points to cannons
In monster heavy lists I think msu cavalry or fast cav and eagles are what you need possibly shadow warriors, I also like long range magic this is because it gives you ways of killing things that kill monsters of which wRmachines are most obvious.

So a short answer is there is no wrong or right
But for me I like rbt and Phoenix in rare together, but if I don't have a mounted character I either take 2 or 0 Phoenix, but 2 phoenixes are getting the bollocks comped out of them right now
Ian Sturgess playing high elves and wood elves since 1990 ish
Twitter @chaffmaster1
User avatar
HERO
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#25 Post by HERO »

Empire light council gunlines will make you cry though.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45884][img]http://i.imgur.com/EvidzNv.jpg[/img][/url]
[i]Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica![/i]
[url=http://lkhero.blogspot.com/][size=150]HERO's Gaming Blog[/size][/url]
User avatar
HERO
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#26 Post by HERO »

I just had a game yesterday with 2x Frosties vs Ogres.

He had the standard..
2x ironblasters
big unit of bulls
bigger unit of guts
3x sabers
1x mournfangs, FC, dragonhide
6x leadbelchers

I had my..
lv.4 shadow
big unit of spears
big unit of white lions botwd
big unit of razor guard
2x units of archers
2x frost phoenix
2x great eagles

It was a complete slaughter, but my opponent was coming back from a long ass hiatus and made a lot of tactical mistakes. A single cannoball hit one of the phoneixes, I failed to save and it only did 1 wound to the bird. I then dominated the movement phase because I don't care about his chaff, in fact, I killed 2 of his dogs with the archers right from the top. Phoenixes just run into the Ironblasters and killed them, and without the general's leadership and BSB they just die in the face. Rest of the game was a wash really, with a combo charge from my White Lions into the flank of his IGstar and the Phoenix in the same combat. Enfeebling gets pushed through and in combination with the Phoenix, the Ironguts are looking at -4 to S. Asur victor.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45884][img]http://i.imgur.com/EvidzNv.jpg[/img][/url]
[i]Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica![/i]
[url=http://lkhero.blogspot.com/][size=150]HERO's Gaming Blog[/size][/url]
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#27 Post by Curu Olannon »

HERO wrote:Empire light council gunlines will make you cry though.
It will make most builds cry. It is an obscenely strong build when played right.

The problem with skipping RBTs is when you face armies that simply don`t care that much about your frosties. The most notable examples are shooty-msu lists like DE/WE/LZ which can just zone and shoot you to death. Being able to shoot back here is a great option and allows you to play flexibly.

"Curu, why would you take double Frosthearts in a Dragonlist then? Won`t it make it even more polarized?"

First of all, yes it will. However, with a Dragon and a Frostie already, you`re looking at giving up nearly 1000vp if these 2 go down. An additional 240 then isn`t all that much. In a way, you`re agreeing to polarize it because you feel the benefits outweigh the risk, the latter being negligible in the light of your gung-ho style and 1000vp already resting on 2 models.

The thing is that a double frostheart and a star dragon hitting home will just decimate just about anything in Warhammer. At this point you can spend a Frostheart almost like an Eagle, and still have another one available. Considering that a Frostheart is vastly superior to an Eagle then, your options multiply tremendously. Lastly, going double Frosthearts is cheaper than 4 RBTs + 1 Frostheart, meaning you can fit in that crucial double Eagle @2400 points, which is just ridiculously strong.

Lastly I should note that I have never played with dual Frosthearts yet but I have tried Frost + Fire with the SD multiple times and I can easily see the possibilities here. I just finished my uncomped tournament reports and will touch on this issue in my analysis (coming soon).
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#28 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:Lastly I should note that I have never played with dual Frosthearts yet but I have tried Frost + Fire with the SD multiple times and I can easily see the possibilities here. I just finished my uncomped tournament reports and will touch on this issue in my analysis (coming soon).
I take it you'd rate starprince+dual frosty as better than starprince+frost+flame, all things being equal, no comp and TLOS?
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#29 Post by Curu Olannon »

Ferny wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:Lastly I should note that I have never played with dual Frosthearts yet but I have tried Frost + Fire with the SD multiple times and I can easily see the possibilities here. I just finished my uncomped tournament reports and will touch on this issue in my analysis (coming soon).
I take it you'd rate starprince+dual frosty as better than starprince+frost+flame, all things being equal, no comp and TLOS?
Yes. The Flamespyre has a couple of things going for it, but I find them all to be situational. By putting an Anointed on top like Furion did the dynamic changes drastically, however I have no experience with this so hard to evaluate. I have not given Frost + Flame + SD + high magic a go however, perhaps this could be interesting. Walk is amazing on the Flamespyre as it allows you to do tremendous amounts of damage in a single turn and it really helps out against congalines etc (since every model is a rank, seriously a Flamespyre just obliterates VC zombie-congas for example). I suppose the problem is actually getting Walk off, seeing as an opponent will frequently not fear too many other spells earlygame.
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
Ether Dude
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: Dual Frosties vs 4xRBT+1 Frostie

#30 Post by Ether Dude »

SpellArcher wrote:An army with units doesn't allow a weaker player the same opportunity to beat you just because his cannon rolled well.
It does. As Finreir pointed out, RBTs are horribly vulnerable to cannons, even more so than are frosthearts. They are also lower priority and are not all that scary in the grand scheme of things.

For -2 to hit, you put a large target behind another model. Hey presto, -2 to hit.
SpellArcher wrote:The units I described are M6/Swiftstride at worst.
With 90 degree charge arcs and no ability to hop over intervening units. That's a fair amount of play there.
SpellArcher wrote:The flyers cannot charge good units like Beasts with impunity because they'll stick and enemy buffs or support charges then come into play.
They can choose to not charge them. Or to charge other units in such a way that it will take the beasts a while to get into contact.
SpellArcher wrote:But your own is important to block off the support charges described above. Enemy archery etc will remove it unless you have a way to remove the enemy archers. You can actually use chaff to counter flyers but it's fiddly and requires skill.
Again, I disagree with you. For starters, few armies take non-cannon shooting, and that's easily dealt with by putting your eagle behind your phoenix/dragons for a delicious -3 or more to hit. Enemy archers don't mean all that much unless they are taken in absurd numbers, which most comp packs prohibit.
SpellArcher wrote:No the ETC wasn't a poor example. This event is the highest concentration of top-class players in the world.
Playing a very controlled team oriented style game with the ability to control the kinds of matches they played and not relying on individual points gathering to gain a podium spot.
Post Reply