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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:47 am 
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Green Istari

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If you've invested 1000pts+ in monsters you're a lot more vulnerable to a shot-off loss than 280pts in RBT. But RBT are not units in the usual sense anyway. Those units have more than a fair amount of play since they have an 18-21" max charge (roughly 14 1/2 -17 1/2 average). Yes flyers can choose not to charge a particular enemy unit. But not for long because they are being shot/magicked. A lot of enemy units have the option to flee, giving another round of ranged damage or making the flyer risk being charged by something else.

We are in the elf meta. 1/3 of the armies in a recent tournament I played were elves. These will be chock a block with BS shooting to remove redirectors, a lot of it mobile. Even medium comps like the ETC don't have a serious shot cap anymore and what you do see in tournies is what, 50 models or 70 shots maybe? That's enough to remove light troops and do a lot of other stuff. The ETC lists are just an expression of what is going on generally.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:29 am 
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For starters, few armies take non-cannon shooting, and that's easily dealt with by putting your eagle behind your phoenix/dragons for a delicious -3 or more to hit.


...what? VC have screams, OnG have catapults, doom divers, short bows, Bretonnia has Trebuchets, Dark Elves have shooting on virtually every unit, Wood Elves have shooting aplenty, most High Elf lists take decent amounts of shooting, Lizardmen spams shooting, Chaos Dwarfs have a variety of shooting and their "good" cousins have anything from Irondrakes to Organ Guns. The only armies I see that are largely limited to cannon shooting are the Empire and Daemons, with OK typically packing Maneaters as well. Furthermore a lot of these armies have shooting that is either mobile enough to get around your hard cover or doesn`t care about said cover, so it`s not that easy.

I must admit, I lost track of where your discussion is heading. The topic is double Frosthearts vs 4 RBTs + Frostheart. To this end, it is important to note that both have their merits and that the difference is largely how much you feel more power is worth relative to flexibility. 4 RBTs are a solid battery in the current meta. You say they are weak vs Cannons. I love having RBTs vs OK and EMP. True, vs DoC they tend not to do a whole lot, but that`s only one out of the 3 armies I see sporting cannons. That hardly makes them poor vs cannons: Context is everything and Empire + OK fear RBTs (if they don`t, they should).

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:04 pm 
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In a no comp environment I might be tempted to double frostie + dragon or annointed on 3rd bird + noble or two on griffon for the sake of target saturation, but in most comp environments including etc 4 rbt are so powerful and bring a lot to the army. Even in no comp I would be highly tempted to bring the rbt simply because of the wide range of tasks they accomplish.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:54 am 
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I manged to try a 3 phoenix list last night with annointed on flame and 2 frosthearts. Played against WoC once and Ogres for my second game, things worked really well.
Every time I've played my lists consists of large number of archers and 4 rbt so I was extremely reluctant to leave all that at home in favor of 3 high cost priority targets, but I was extremely surprised at how effective they are.
Despite everything that was thrown at them, they hold up extremely well. I believe the trade off of high maneuverability and long movement distances compared to shooting is worth it if you're playstyle allows it. I've had games where 4 bolt throwers don't do anything to push the game in my favor due to either unlucky rolls or bad targeting, but a good charge from 2 phoenixes can really wreck someones day.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:36 am 
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How did you counter the Ironblasters AS?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:34 pm 
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I managed to luck out a little bit with shots that fell short turn 1. Not 100% sure we played it correctly, but a friend there reminded us that you can't make a cannon shot if there is a chance you may hit your own units. So I parked a few birds 1" from the back of a giant ogre block but in between them and the 2 ironblasters. After that turn 2 charge while he's turning half his army around.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:46 pm 
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Sounds good!

:)

I suspect the Ogre player needs to be very careful about his deployment here.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:09 am 
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ArcaneSnow wrote:
I managed to luck out a little bit with shots that fell short turn 1. Not 100% sure we played it correctly, but a friend there reminded us that you can't make a cannon shot if there is a chance you may hit your own units. So I parked a few birds 1" from the back of a giant ogre block but in between them and the 2 ironblasters. After that turn 2 charge while he's turning half his army around.


That's how my old EAF worked but did it lots better because 40mm bases nearly made you immune to cannons if you did that

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:49 pm 
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Hey guys,

I also got a frostie related question, thought I might aswell squeeze it in here instead of opening up a new topic:

how would you rate the inclusion of a frostie in a Footprince + High Archmage +PG + Mage + double Noble bus list,
core filled with either 3xEr or 5SH + 5ER?
As for Rare, I want to field 3rbts and an Eagle. If I say no to Mr Frostie, I could get some Sisters and another cheap Noble...

The list I plan to take to my first tournament (Combat 8.0 comp - 4dice max per spell, 3 Reavers/rbts max, 2 out of botw,
Frostie, BoH on Archie, Star Dragon; SLoS), where 4 out of 22 bring Woodies, 3 other dudes High Elves and one Dark Elves.
Other than that, there will be three Daemons attending, the rest is a mixed bag, albeit sans Skaven, Empire and Vamps.

Thanks in advance for your answers,

teep


Last edited by teep on Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:28 pm 
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I think the Frostheart has great potential in a PG + bus list, doubly so with magic being comped. I would take Prince + BSB with BOTWD in SH bus, AM in PG and 3 RBT + Bird ;) I have a few concept lists based on this concept, check out my blog for details.

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