Viability of Dragon Princes

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TheItalian567
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Viability of Dragon Princes

#1 Post by TheItalian567 »

So since I've been back, I couldn't wait to get some DPs. I love the models, I love the fluff; they were one of the initial models that got me into High Elves back in the day with those beautiful metal static poses.

Now that I have five, I'm wondering how viable they are. I'll keep them in my army regardless (especially after I paint them) because I love the models so much, but what are some things you guys do when running DPs?

I'm finding that when I run DPs, I put them to the flank of my SMs (or other special infantry for that matter) to provide support, but it ends up putting them so far out of placement that they never get the chance to do anything effective until late in the game when the game is pretty much decided.

OR!

I place them so poorly that they get shot down to 3 models before they get a charge off.

Really, it comes down to placement for me and having misplaced them all five times I've used them. Again though I just wonder what some people's experiences are with them and how they like to run them- Right now, I have 5x FC w/ Banner of Swiftness + Star Lance on the champ (my list is bare-bones until I pump it up with more special infantry, so I have a lot of points to work with when it comes to giving champs magic weapons)
the shalafi
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#2 Post by the shalafi »

TheItalian567 wrote:So since I've been back, I couldn't wait to get some DPs. I love the models, I love the fluff; they were one of the initial models that got me into High Elves back in the day with those beautiful metal static poses.

Now that I have five, I'm wondering how viable they are. I'll keep them in my army regardless (especially after I paint them) because I love the models so much, but what are some things you guys do when running DPs?

I'm finding that when I run DPs, I put them to the flank of my SMs (or other special infantry for that matter) to provide support, but it ends up putting them so far out of placement that they never get the chance to do anything effective until late in the game when the game is pretty much decided.

OR!

I place them so poorly that they get shot down to 3 models before they get a charge off.

Really, it comes down to placement for me and having misplaced them all five times I've used them. Again though I just wonder what some people's experiences are with them and how they like to run them- Right now, I have 5x FC w/ Banner of Swiftness + Star Lance on the champ (my list is bare-bones until I pump it up with more special infantry, so I have a lot of points to work with when it comes to giving champs magic weapons)
well, I don't play in a super competitive enviroment, but I do run a bus of Dragon Princes.
I run 12 of them with a BSB, a Prince and a lvl2 high magic in there, full command BOTWD. A ton of points, but amazing. Having a 2+, a 6++ which i ussualy boost to at least a 5++ and a 2++ vs magic and flaming, these guys are pretty defensive. THey have so far killed of almost everything they ran into, without losing to much of their own. The one time I did lose them was when my opponent kept spam-dwellersing them on double 6's.

So I'd say you can run them, and they are pretty flexibal as for unit sizes 5 is fine, 10 is fine, 15 is fine. They are propably not the best choice in the book, but i'd say they are certainly viable. I would advice to combine them with a Frosty tough, especcialy if you go with more then 5.
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popquq
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#3 Post by popquq »

Hi there! I agree with you that they are amazing. I play them in groups of five with full command and flame banner to threaten regeneration monsters and flankers. I think if is an amazing unit for there points and role in the army. The one reason for not taking them in lager groups is that they do not use all of there attacks if they fight in a second rank.

cheers
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TheItalian567
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#4 Post by TheItalian567 »

That's true, but the same could be argued for Swordmasters... Which are admittedly less than viable in MOST concerns as WLs are a bit more killy with more survivability and PGs are way more tanky.
mcmulligan
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#5 Post by mcmulligan »

Well, there's a difference between viable and optimal.

Swordmasters are very viable, even if sub-optimal compared to WLs (and only in certain situations, I think most people would be surprised that SM outperform WL in a lot of scenarios, even in ranks).

Same for Dragon Princes. Are they optimal? Usually not. They are expensive, have relatively low strength, especially after the charge, come from our special slot which also has our best toys in special infantry, and are often times superfluous to Silver Helms that fill the necessary core slot.

That being said, they are very viable, especially in small groups. Also, with a flaming banner, can be a fast moving regen denier if you need one, something silverhelms can't do.

To better protect them, deploy them behind some other troops to provide hard cover. They're fast enough to compensate for any deployment disadvantage that might put you at. If you're running groups of 5, with no command, I would use them to hunt war machines and chaff. If the opportunity arises to assist with a combat, jump at it, but always be mindful of getting them stuck into a combat more than one round where they start contributing almost nothing at all.

Kind of a rough question though, as pretty much every unit in every army is viable. I think what you're really looking for is a rating of how optimal they are. And invariably, the answer is, depends on how you plan to use them. If they are your sole cavalry, they'll be great. If you're running them alongside helms and reavers, you may regret the massive investment in cavalry and neglect of combat infantry blocks.

And in my experience, tournaments and friendly play, High Elven cavalry is NOT impressive without the support of characters. S3 (even S5 on the charge) is a handicap. Other heavy cavalry in the game, such as Cold One Knights, Inner Circle Knights, Chaos Knights, Black Knights, etc, all have at least base S4, which makes a huge difference in fights lasting more than one round, and in the initial round where they are hitting at S6 or better on the charge.
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high elf
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#6 Post by high elf »

I always bring a unit of 5 - typically with the star lance (or the ogre blade) + charmed/enchanted shield to the champ - and they always seem to do their job. I always bring them with the movement banner and deploy them on a flank.

It's not unusual for them not to engage combat... sometimes their charge range alone is enough to threaten your opponent into making a mistake or being overly conservative, buying you time for more shooting and magic (we're pretty good at these).

Even if they take a few wounds to shooting.. those are shots/bolts that aren't going towards your phoenix or dragon.... and you can run and hide behind a building or impassible terrain with 1 or 2 of them if there's nothing positive for them to contribute (victory point denial).

If only they were S4...
theviking
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#7 Post by theviking »

I think dragon princes are mostly good for their magic banner/weapon slots. You could run a bus unit with the BotWD and characters, freeing the BSB to take magic items. Or you could have a unit of 5-7 with flaming banner, swiftness, etc. like you are using now. Just plain old dragon princes by themselves though I think silver helms are probably a better choice, as the stat increases are offset by the cheaper cost, and the helms aren't competing with elite infantry for special points.
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#8 Post by cptcosmic »

I currently play an Island of Blood army because I like the swordmaster and seaguard models and my dragon princes have their own important role.

I include dragon princes in units of 5-6 models with musician. they deal or weaken stuff my MMU swordmasters do not want to take care of: chaff, warmachines & units with ASF. I could use reavers for some of the tasks but they are always too busy delaying units and their damage on the charge is often lacking. the dragon princes additionally act as flanking unit if left untouched because they are able to deal significant damage on the charge.
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finreir
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#9 Post by finreir »

Dps aren't optimum
But are still decent one of my tournament lists has 10 and a prince
My Swedish lists have 2 5s sometimes.
They are still ok and can add movement flexibility to the infantry based list, but truth is they are not cold one knights, or monstrous cav they don't do enough on their own as a main stay combat unit they needed s4 to cut it and they did not get it
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TheItalian567
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#10 Post by TheItalian567 »

Sorry viability might not have been the best word here.. I just meant more how do people use them typically..

From what I'm gathering though, I'm not using them wrong and their performance is to be expected as far as not being a game changer. They ALMOST feel like glorified chaff as they can't really go head on with most units anymore.

It's interesting how heavy cavalry has been weakened a little bit in this most recent version. Not that I'm complaining, because I get more performance as a bus out of my Silver Helms :D. I just love cavalry, and I always end up rolling tons of cavalry- even if I want to avoid it hah.

How have you guys experienced Silver Helm buses... 14x I'd say in a 2.5k list vs. a DP buses? I would assume x9? Both with a Prince.
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John Rainbow
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#11 Post by John Rainbow »

I came second in a 20-man event with a list based on DP-star. They can definitely work1

Prince on Star Dragon + Sword.Might, Ench.Sh, 4++, OTS, HA
BSB + B.Steed, DA, Golden Crown, Charmed.Sh, Pot.Str, Sword.Striking,
Noble + B.Steed, Ogre Blade, HA, SH, Dragonhelm
Mage(2)[High] + Scroll, Ring.Fury

10 Silver Helms + command, SH
3 x 5 Reavers + spears & bows
3 x 5 Reavers

7 Dragon Princes + command, BotWD, Star Lance

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3 x RBT
TheItalian567
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#12 Post by TheItalian567 »

John Rainbow wrote:I came second in a 20-man event with a list based on DP-star. They can definitely work1

Prince on Star Dragon + Sword.Might, Ench.Sh, 4++, OTS, HA
BSB + B.Steed, DA, Golden Crown, Charmed.Sh, Pot.Str, Sword.Striking,
Noble + B.Steed, Ogre Blade, HA, SH, Dragonhelm
Mage(2)[High] + Scroll, Ring.Fury

10 Silver Helms + command, SH
3 x 5 Reavers + spears & bows
3 x 5 Reavers

7 Dragon Princes + command, BotWD, Star Lance

Frostheart
3 x RBT
Very, very interesting build! I like it. The kits are way out of my comfort zone as I've been doing the standard Prince kit.. Horse w/ barding, dawnstone, ogre blade, enchanted shield..

I like it though!

I haven't used RBTs.. Ever.. And I'm starting to think, more and more, that RBTs are going to be a better solution than using archers for a somewhat more cavalry centric list with two large infantry blocks.
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John Rainbow
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#13 Post by John Rainbow »

Something like this is also pretty decent and proven to be successful, I think Malossar ran something very similar and did well with it:
Prince w. Dragon Armor, B. Steed, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness - 282
Archmage Lvl 4, Khaine's Ring of Fury, Elven Steed, Dragon Bane Gem - 325 (Lore of High Magic)
Noble BsB w. Dragon Armor, B. Steed, Great Weapon, Shield, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown - 176

5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Spears - 80
10x Silver Helms w. Full Command - 260

12x Dragon Princes w. Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Ogre Blade - 468

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#14 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I use 2 units of 5, with musicians and one with Banner of Eternal Flames. Along with 2 units of Lions and 2 units of Swordmasters, they are my heavy hitters but due to the nature of the army, none of my regiment operates alone, even if joined by a character. There are, of course, enemies I am happy to charge with small heavy cavalry squadrons and flaming attacks help against foes with regeneration. I find them very useful but it seems you are more interested in big regiments, hence I don't think my experience will be valuable for you. But to answer your oroginal question, yes, they are viable and they have important role to play in the army.
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Galharen
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#15 Post by Galharen »

I won a 15-players 1200points tourney last weekend and I used a unit of 6 dragon princes with champion wielding star lance. They did amazing job :)
TheItalian567
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#16 Post by TheItalian567 »

I think I just need to get around placing my DPs poorly and actually use them to flank/assist other units.

I'm tinkering with adding a frost phoenix to my list so it'll be an interesting dynamic. I like the look of that 15 bus large dragon prince list! looks INSANE!
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Viability of Dragon Princes

#17 Post by Curu Olannon »

I`m not a big fan of DP. Alone, they don`t pack any grind and even their punch is somewhat lacking. If you want a character bunker, it is my experience that Silver Helms just do it better. Sure they have matchups where they`re good, but you are paying top dollar for this unit seeing as it`s not a core choice.
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