vs Orcs and Goblins

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Prince of Spires
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vs Orcs and Goblins

#1 Post by Prince of Spires »

I have a game coming up against O&G, and the player says he's bringing a strong list. I have no idea what is actually going to be in it. Having only played O&G once, I can use some advise on what to look out for.

In general, I know the following about O&G;
- Their strongest builds are probably forms of gunlines (funnily enough). Doomdivers, rock lobbers (and even cheap spear chuckas) are decent enough shooting, especially for the price.
- Other strong units are nightgoblins (in big block, including fanatics) and savage orcs.

Can anyone expand on this knowledge of O&G? What to look out for, what are strong combinations, what stuff can be ignored etc.

And then, there is also the other side of the question, what should I bring in my list? I'm open to suggestions. One thing that will definitely be in my list is a flamespire phoenix. I've just finished building and painting one. So it's going to see some action on the tabletop.

Other things I might include are a frostheart and a unit of 15 PG (fc and razor banner), simply because they tend to perform well for me.

Any other suggestions?

Rod
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

The Savage Orcs will be Big'uns and they will have characters in. One will have the Lucky Shrunken Head to give whole unit a 5+ Ward. Often this is the only really big combat unit. Trolls are cheap and popular so some way of dealing with Regen may be a good idea. Usually 2 Mangler Squigs which need to be removed at range, move an eagle over one (both die) if you're desperate. Foot of Gork is the premier damage spell, keep a scroll for this. Plenty of Wolf Riders both units and single disposable characters. O&G are epic against armour.
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#3 Post by Curu Olannon »

The standard Orcs and Goblins list largely boils down to a single choice: 2nd unit of Trolls vs more chaff, impact hits and board control. They both feature a BLorc Warboss in a unit of Savage Orcs Big Uns w/Shrunken Head and BSB, double rock lobbers, double doom divers and a unit of Trolls (typically 9 big so they can go 3x3). Usually there`s also 4++ on the warboss and MR involved, seeing as a snipe on him is critical for the LD4 stupid Troll.

I have recently faced 2 lists, one like this in the hands of a very skilled player and one more exotic variant in the hands of a more casual gamer. The reports, respectively, can be found here:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 19#p886819
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 44#p884044

Death and High Magic are both strong lores here. Purple Sun is disastrous, as is Doom and Darkness. Sisters are really good vs troll, especially if you can follow up. The big problem however is the artillery: Doom Divers kill Elves in no time. In both of the reports above, they are just munching through the cavalry and before long, there won`t be LoS left. Being able to steer back in D6" is insane and this even works when firing indirectly... What makes High Magic so good is Fiery Convocation and Walk Between Worlds, the latter is very strong because you gain the Ethereal rule for the rest of the phase, allowing you to draw out/kill manglers and fanatics with impunity (I did this while blocking a chariot as well in the second report). Speaking of which, fanatics and manglers are an absolute nightmare. The former can be used in tricky ways: once sent out it will go through units and terrain and, unlike vortexes, its effect wont stop. Therefore night goblins in a backfield can slingshot a fanatic over incredibly long distances IF you place something close to them. S5 AP is not something we enjoy, and you can be sure he`ll have a few.

Magic-wise you fear Foot and Hand of Gork, the rest are largely irrelevant. Foot can be dealt with by MR or BOTWD (or both, this combination is featured in the 2nd report and show how easy it becomes to manage his magic then), if you have an exposed unit this is a truly terrible spell for HE.

Although you do have to rush into combat due to his artillery, you can`t just target anything you want. Orcs hit hard, especially in the first round of combat. Furthermore they typically have the numbers to weather our flurry of ASF and strike back as hard as if we`d never struck them. Lastly, they almost always have multiple threats and/or impact hits based stuff messing you up (this cost me the game in report 1 above). Thus, biding your time while drawing out his tricks is vital before committing to a full-on charge. With that said, a combo-charge by dedicated combat units will almost always win big (see report 1, or report 2 T2 vs Trolls).

Lastly, I`ll just plug down a standard list which focuses more on support than combat, as I believe any strong OnG build is a variation of this:
1 Black Orc Warboss, General; Heavy Armour, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Crown of Command, 245
1 Savage Orc Great Shaman, Magic Level 4; Big Waagh; Choppa, Lucky Shrunken Head, Obsidian Lodestone, Warrior Bane, 305
1 Savage Orc Shaman, Magic Level 1; Big Waagh; Choppa, Dispel Scroll, Tormentor Sword, 100
1 Savage Orc Big Boss, BSB, Choppa; Great Weapon;
Armour of Silvered Steel, Luckstone, 154

20 Night goblins, 2 fanatics, 110
5 wolf riders, light armour, shields, bows, 60
5 wolf riders, light armour, shields 55
36 Savage Big 'Uns, Second Choppa; Warpaint; Musician; Savage Orc Boss, 421

4x1 Spear Chukka, 4x35
2x1 Wolf Chariot, 2x50
9 Trolls, 315
1 Troll, 35

2x1 Doom Diver, 2x80
2x1 Rock Lobber, 2x85
2x1 Mangler Squig, 2x65
Total: 2500
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#4 Post by Prince of Spires »

Thanks for the links to the battle reports Curu. I'll have a read through them.

How would you rate a SD against a typical O&G list? On the one hand I feel it can do a lot of damage and offer some great board control. On the other hand, survivability might be an issue.

I do have a bit of an idea of what to expect. In your sample list I feel the NG unit is a bit on the small side. Depending a bit on what its purpose in the list is of course. I would drop the solitary troll and a unit of wolf riders for more NG I think.

Thinking about what to bring. I like the idea of high magic. A chance of bigger units on the table makes convocation a decent threat. Walk between world is great for fanatic/mangler stepping. And even tempest can be pretty decent in this matchup. I don't see too much use in Hand of Glory in a lot of cases. But the rest is at least decent.

I will definitely bring at least an eagle. If nothing else, fanatic / mangler stepping duty is pretty important for controlling the board and the flow of the battle I think. Characters I'm not sure of what the way to go is. Lvl 4 with book should give magical dominance. On the other hand, dragon should give board control and is, of course, a dragon.

Core will probably end up 2 units of reavers with the rest in archers. I think archers have a decent list of targets vs O&G. Lots of T3 models low on armour. Being able to deal with manglers and fanatics at range can be key. And if I can combine them with a bunch of sisters then they could even get the odd wound on a troll unit.

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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#5 Post by Curu Olannon »

The Star Dragon is a surprisingly good pick against normal OnG lists, because it will cause so much havoc once it gets into combat. The only thing that can touch it is the Black Orc Warboss and he will be hesitant to do so with Star Lance/TOTS on the Prince. The problem with an SD list is getting the support into favourable combats as well since they have so many elements that are strong against our cavalry (in both reports you can see Silver Helms dying left, right and center). The Star Dragon is probably a neutral matchup then (while I consider most of our other builds to be at a disadvantage vs OnG), where skills and knowledge of the matchup will likely determine the victor (i.e. Warhammer "as it should be" if you ask me ;) ). You could get unlucky and die to Stone Throwers but Apotheosis helps mitigate this, besides they are unreliable to say the least and there`s usually some kind of cover.

Drawing out fanatics is often as important as actually killing them. This is what lost me the game in the report above. Eagles and Reavers are very good for this, obviously.

High Magic sees yet another matchup here where it truly shines, but that`s largely up to build. Heavens can also be exceptional with Comet threatening the gunline a lot. Hand of Glory needs to target infantry for +M or a significant unit of shooters for +BS to be really useful. It is important to remember though that often trickling is the most important part of your strategy, in which case simply getting spells off is key to your strategy (and 5+ to cast is wonderful here as even a level 2 will cast the spell on 3+).

Mage vs Dragon should largely depend on what you like to play. High is a solid choice regardless, here. If you do want Archers though I`d likely leave the Dragon at home seeing as it suffers from combat resolution and without stubborn backup from BOTWD-BSB-Helms you could easily lose it to stupid L1 mages/champ challenges. If you go down this route (i.e. Archers + L4) I`d say Sisters are a good bet :)
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#6 Post by Orien »

My second army is Orcs and Goblins, and within my meta it sees Dwarfs, Empire and WoC. I have the following all-comers build when I am looking for the win:

Blorc Warboss - Basha's axe, Tal of Pres, Enchanted Shield, I bunker him in a unit of 17 Blorcs with Champ & the Standard of Discipline to provide LD10 to the army. Although small, this unit is better than you think

SO Great Shaman, Shrunken Head & Obsidian Lodestone, I bunker him in with a unit of 28 SOBU with FC & additional hand weapons

Blorc Bsb with Tal of Endurance and a shield (also sits in the SOBU, this entire unit has a 2++ vs magic)

2 x 5 naked Wolf riders

2 x 20 NG archers, standard bearers (3 fanatics per unit)

1 Spear chukka

3 x Goblin chariots (ran individually)

6 x Trolls

2 X Doomdivers

2 x Rocklobbas

2 x Manglers

For those who work this list out in points it comes to 2535 due to our current campaign bonuses allowing me to upgrade the full command of a unit for free.

The way I play this list is to put out tons of cheap redirectors and hammer the opponent with whatever gets through, slow them all up sufficiently for the trolls, sobu and blorcs to put the pain down, along with hammering from range with artillery and the foot.

The weaknesses in the list from my own perspective is the chaff actually comes to quite the investment of points. If my opponents were to spend their first turns removing the chaff then the army itself isn't designed to withstand four rounds of combat with anything half decent. Alternatively ignoring the chaff and hammering the combat blocks from range is also effective. The area in which my opponents give me opportunity is when they try to focus on both and not one or the other.
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#7 Post by Curu Olannon »

The list above is quite similar to the tournament report I linked ;)
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#8 Post by Prince of Spires »

Thanks for all the tips. It gives me a decent idea of what a "normal" competitive O&G list looks like. It seems a combination of gunline, chaff, impact hits and tough units. Best ways to deal with it is either have stronger ranged power or win the chaff war and get into combat fast with the right units and concentrate a lot of force in the right place. Getting bogged down halfway across the field or spending 3 or 4 turns getting units in position is probably not the best of approaches. And then there's of course manglers and fanatics that need to be dealt with before they can become an issue.

I've been thinking about some lists. I still haven't decided on either an archmage or a dragon approach. So I'll just throw both out there and see what you think.

Dragon list
Prince on stardragon, ogre blade, enchanted shield, heavy armour, talisman of endurance, 611pts

Noble BSB, Great Eagle, Starlance, GW, Heavy armour, dragon helm, shield, golden crown, 205pts
Mage, lvl 2, scroll, high. 145

20 archers, muso, 210pts
20 lsg, muso, shields, 250 pts
5 reavers, muso, 90pts
5 reavers, muso, 90pts

10 DP, fc, 320pts
15 PG, fc, razor standard, 300pts

Eagle, 50pts
Flamespire, 225pts

total: 2496

Bit unusual perhaps. In part dictated by available models (and the fact that in general I'm crappy at kitting out characters). Changes are of course possible. I could drop the bsb of the eagle and onto a horse, give him the BoTWD or give that to the DP banner bearer. I could drop the PG for a frostheart phoenix (for a 3 monster list).

The archmage list:
Archmage, lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, high, 275

Noble BSB, Armour of Caledor, GW, 179
Mage, lvl2, scroll, death, 145

20 archers, muso, 210pts
20 lsg, muso, shields, 250 pts
5 reavers, muso, 90pts
5 reavers, muso, 90pts

15 PG, fc, razor standard, 300pts
10 SM, muso, 140
10 WL, muso, 140
Skycutter, 95

Great Eagle, 50
Flamespire, 225
Frostheart, 240
7 Sisters, 98

A slower list, more infantry focused. A lot more magic. But still a decent punch in there. As with the other list, stuff can still be shuffled around. For instance, dropping the Skycutter and WL for DP's and put the BSB on a horse to add some extra punch.

The first list has a simpler gameplan. The second is perhaps a bit more flexible. Both pack a decent punch on the charge. The second can also be played a bit more reactively and defensive.

Any thoughts.

Rod
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#9 Post by pk-ng »

You may want 1 unit with BotWD. Because he'll 6 dice boosted foot every turn. And if Gorks wants to foot you; you'll get footed.
Actually Frostheart is very good against OnG as it reduces the choppa special ability.
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#10 Post by Andros123 »

Generally I find OnG a very tough matchup. For some insane reason, their war machines are amazing and their unit sizes are usually big enough to slaughter our elite toughness 3 guys in close combat.
So because of war machines and high strength attacks, I will leave the star dragon at home. If you have some more Phoenix guards; bring them. OnG with trolls and SOBU's can pump out an insane amount of attacks, with the phoenix guards being the only of our elite choices, that can withstand that. A unit of 20-30 will be great, since they can really grind and at the same time not die.

If you go with High magic using walk between worlds is a great way to lure out the fanatics btw.

So I like your second list, however I think you need bigger unit sizes, because what are 10 WL really gonna do? Also if you go with the reaver bow + potion of strength combo on you BSB combined with your archers, you should be able to take out his war machines fairly quickly and then your birds fly safely.

I'll look forward to hear how it went!
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#11 Post by Prince of Spires »

I do indeed have more PG, though in general I've found that 15 + razor banner are enough to get done what needs to be done. People who run into that unit the first time often underestimate it. It's a bit a case of what needs to go to get more in I think.

Fanatics are indeed one of the reasons to go for High. Walk between worlds is a great spell in this setting. But I think most of the rest is pretty good too. Fiery convocation is pretty good against bigger units of low armour guys. Unforging has a use in a lot of settings, as does apotheosis and soul quench. I can even see tempest being useful. Big units, close together. About as good an opponent as any to try it out on.

Regarding the second list, would you consider the following changes an improvement:
- drop the WL, SM and skycutter.
- add in a unit of 10 DP, BotWD.
- Mount the BSB (probably with ogre blade and golden crown) and put him in the DP unit.

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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#12 Post by Curu Olannon »

Given that you have some untraditional lists here I would advice you to try first, reconsider second. Given the input above, you should have a fairly good idea about what works and what doesn`t and I assume you`ve created the lists with that in mind. The best way to learn then is simply to play the game ;)
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#13 Post by Prince of Spires »

Good point, though of course it's always nice if people tell you the solution. You're correct that I considered what different people have said about O&G while creating both lists. They more or less match with both possible playstyles. The first hits like a ton of bricks. The second is a more defensive option.

I'll probably just follow your advise and play the game and let you guys know. A more direct question then perhaps, what do you think about the character equipment in the stardragon list. I know you have a lot of experience with a stardragon. So you're bound to have an opinion there.

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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#14 Post by Curu Olannon »

Your current setup:
Prince of Spires wrote: Prince on stardragon, ogre blade, enchanted shield, heavy armour, talisman of endurance, 611pts
He hits at S6 (constantly), with a 2+ armour save and a 5+ ward. In my opinion this is not enough to make him either tanky or hitty or contributing to the Dragon. Sure S6 ASF is nice, but if I would have a nickel every time my Ogre Blade Noble does nothing I would be rich by now. 2+ armour isn`t really enough to make a difference against tough enemies either and 1+ is impossible for us (in combat). Lastly, 5++ is situational, at best. I like to build my Prince with the intended role that given a situation, he can be fearsome and he`ll always contribute to the Dragon while he`s alive. This pretty much forces you into Star Lance + TOTS. The first is amazing in so, so many situations whereas the latter gives your opponent something to think about: Does he kill the Prince or let the Dragon keep rolling with forced re-rolls of successful ward saves?

At 2500 you have the luxury to get the best of all worlds. I would go with my usual build (Star Lance, TOTS, Golden Crown, Dragonhelm - the latter 2 ensuring you`re a lot more likely to conserve points in many, many matchups) and add heavy armour (for 2+) and lion cloak (1+ vs shooting). This gives you the same armour, way better offense, support for the Dragon at the cost of less grinding power (which the SD doesn`t need that much) and a different defensive setup. The Fireward is particularly nice against Daemons: If the dragon goes down to the last spell (more frequent than you`d think) the cannons can`t reliably kill the Prince as well for all those goodie points. It also makes Searing Doom, Skull Catapults and a number of other things irrelevant as well as allowing you to just roll into whatever has flaming attacks in combat with impunity.
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#15 Post by Orien »

Curu Olannon wrote:The list above is quite similar to the tournament report I linked ;)
What can I say? Im just a trend setter !

:D
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#16 Post by Prince of Spires »

@Curu, thanks for the prince's outfit. That is indeed a better item selection.

Had the game last night. I went for the Dragon list, cause what's not to like about a giant, fire breathing lizard. I did change it around to include Curu's outfit suggestions. And lost (about 900 vs 1600 vp scored, give or take a bit). Let's say it was educational ;). It didn't have much to do with the list. I made some mistakes early turns and my opponent (who was both a good player and a great opponent) took the opportunity and grabbed the initiative. Had me on the back foot all game.

Reflecting on the game it probably started going wrong with deployment, though before the start I was happy enough with it. But during the game, my units had to fight battles independently, got in each others way and ended up doing not very much until it was too late. It also had me fighting on 2 flanks.

T1 I was too aggressive I think. I misjudged a few line-of-sight instances and a few charge distances (don't guesstimate, be sure!), which ended me up with being stuck in a few combats (with the aforementioned units being in each others way) I didn't want to be in. And from there I was mainly busy trying to catch up and make the best of a bad situation.

Army list wise, I'm not too enthusiastic about the flamespire. Yes, he is a support unit and I didn't get him where he would be of most value. But with only 3 attacks he just doesn't do very much if you do get him into the wrong place. He sticks around decently, though T5, 5W and only a 5+ ward isn't amazing. But I found it very hard to make him recover from being in the wrong place. As the primary support monster, I think he's not strong enough. I do think he may have some value if you team him up with his bigger brother (like in the archmage list earlier).

The rest of the list was a bit hard to judge, given the flow of the battle. But it performed decently I think. Given the Flamespire experience mentioned above, I'll reshuffle the list a bit to see if I can change the flamespire to a frostheart. +1 S, T, W and A is pretty big and it helps recovery a bit I think. -1S and an armour save just make it even better. It should be possible to achieve it without too many big changes. Dropping the lion cloak on the BSB and the banner on the DPs would give me the 15 points needed for instance.

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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#17 Post by Seredain »

I've got a bit of experience against these lists played by very competent generals (especially the excellent Dom Pemberton who just won Clash of Swords - building impenetrable gunlines is his thing), and the chief conclusion I've come to is that these kinds of armies are incredibly strong but, tactically, quite brittle and vulnerable to our main strengths - ward saves and manipulation of board control.

Firstly, their doomdivers slay our knights. Most of us (bar the elite-star bowline fans) field these in numbers for one reason or another, so we have to get rid of DDs as a priority.

We've got the tools for this but the trick is how we can use them without being smashed by the awesome greenskin chaff guarding the guns. Flyers can avoid the problem, as can reavers to a (significantly) lesser extent (expect night goblin archers to target these), but neither can move into contact with DDs without drawing out the inevitable fanatics. So you've got a 2-stage problem: get to the machines, and survive the fanatics when you arrive.

For both stages, I love the archers+high magic combo. It gives you the missiles to kill the chaff (as well as more serious threats like manglers - though kamakazi eagles are useful here), and WBW to survive the fanatics. Getting this through is easy if you've got Arcane Unforging pointing at the Savage Level 4. If you have a cavbus, getting a ward save up (or else Life magic) keeps it intact. I use my knights to carry the chaff war forward once the manglers are dead. Heavens magic can also nerf the machines to buy you time if you lack bus-buffs. High magic is hard to overlook in this matchup, though. HoG archers, WBW, 2x soul quench, ward saves and the threat against Shrunken Head make a very powerful combo.

So, following the advice of those above, I focus absolutely all my energy on the support units battle first off: chaff, magic and missiles being the main element but also using my cavalry to eat chaff too, as necessary, and covering them with phoenix guard. If you win this battle, the O&G netlist struggles because it really wants you to have to run straight for its main units. If you threaten such a move with your deployment, or at least leave the option open, lots of chaff will be deployed (by a good player) to slow a main combo-attack against the savages. He wants you to decide to try and rush into combat with the blocks, through a wall of chaff, rather than get shot.

Successfully push hard against the machines and kill the most relevant chaff, though, and the list's main tactic comes unstuck. Because it's based on infantry, it's far less effective at coming at you - trolls are M6 but need to stay with the general, and the savages are stuck in one unit with a massive frontage. A black orc block increases enemy combat options but also reduces the amount of chaff/shooting you need to kill. For a mixed elf list it's therefore relatively easy to avoid or surround these units when they come out to play (as they will have to if they're losing the shooting war - goblin chaff is prolific but the points add up).

When it comes to actual combat, I like two things: Crown of Command lets you character wall your capital unit to shrug off the worst effects of horde attacks plus chopper charge. I don't shoot the troll block much usually - my shooting is busy with machines and chaff and I have no flaming arrows - but High magic gives you 3++ phoenix guard and these beat 4++ trolls convincingly (if you run into a horde then Convocation is a great help by way of preparation). They also rock against everything else. The savage horde won't have OTS so your better ward save+ASF can dominate. Characters with even a 5++ (I'm looking at 1+ saves inc. dragon armour with High Magic - a straight up 3++ would be nice too!) can stand up to the ace armour pen of orc characters. Arcane Unforging is a constant threat against the Blorc lord and gives you the edge with ASF.

Obviously this is a dice game so nothing's guaranteed. But kill the doomdivers (and indeed as many machines as you can), use all your tools to collect points from the green chaff and you're in a good position to draw out, shoot and/or focus down the slower blocks.

Hope this helps.
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Curu Olannon
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#18 Post by Curu Olannon »

I`m not surprised you were unhappy with the Flamespyre. Unless you`re able to use its wake of fire effectively it is basically a horribly overpriced Eagle (that admittedly is a lot harder to kill). Vs Elves it`s still destructive due to thunderstomp still killing on 2s without armour saves as long as you`re fighting infantry, but in pretty much any other matchup it will fall short of its bigger brother the Frostheart (which is a really strong monster).

Fighting battles independently is a typical problem for High Elf armies that don`t group up in a few units with characters supporting them. It`s a big problem seeing as we will almost always lose these fights - our strength is force concentration. As for LoS and distance mistakes these should be easy to fix: bring an Arc of Sight and a ruler and make sure to measure absolutely everything, all the time (I play with a laser as well and this drastically reduces the time needed to check lots of things).

Reading Seredain`s comments I largely agree, with the exception of Archers being valuable here. I also don`t think crown of command should be necessary unless you go all-out deathstar, with infantry + cavbus you should be able to dictate the flow of the battle sufficiently. My most recent PG + Cavbus revision has yet to see a game, but you can see the choices echoing Seredain`s comments: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 37#p885937 Note that this was not made to counter OnG specifically, but many of the problems described by Seredain are universal when we face gunlines. I also feel that PG + Cav with High Magic has sufficient mobility to actually push (Hand of Glory and WBW both make PG awefully fast, to the point where you can often draw the scroll early on) and the Frostheart + RBTs provide the much needed support. I`m really hoping to be able to playtest this list before this year is over (easier said than done, trust me).
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#19 Post by Seredain »

Curu I should have clarified: I take 4 repeaters on top of the 23 archers and 6 levels of High Magic. The archers are part of a whole, not a straight replacement for the superior shooting power of the rare machines (though having one block for the receipt of buffs and the application of ranks and asf attacks of course brings some unique benefits). It must be said, in and of themselves archers will put crucial wounds on unarmoured chaff, mega-chaff (manglers) and war machines. The hit bonuses from Hand of Glory, as I've often said, give you plenty of opportunity to roll those 6s to wound. Indeed, because these greenskin lists are relatively static, lightly armoured and simultaneouely chaff and war machine heavy, to my mind this is one of the matchups where a good block of archers really shines - certainly with High magic doing its thing (WBW and the movement buff from Hand bring other possibilities to get within half range and get into flank positions).

I completely agree on the amazing movement benefits brought by the lore generally. 3++ phoenix guard keeping pace with your knights brings so much utility and the possibility for real aggression. Infantry's great weaknesses are its slowness and its stompability - High phoenix guard don't have to suffer from either.

On Crown of Command: I don't say it's essential (I don't say any choices are essential, just helpful in my experience - I can see frosties doing well in this matchup too, for instance, although I don't field them). But in a dice game, every now and then, taking 36 str 5 attacks into a helm bus in ranks of 5 can result in a massive collapse of rank and file, resulting in a nasty break test and then Big Trouble. As you say, High Magic gives you the option of avoiding unfavourable combats like this - and that is certainly very true (before I took the Crown I did just that). But the Crown similarly gives you options: especially the option of using the helm bus to take on the big horde directly without worrying about losing all those rank and file models (because you can safely shift into lance formation, and because your rrLd10 will be immune from any armour save disasters). I have more shooting than you, but even then it can find itself fully occupied with the support war when, say, my hit/wound rolls are poor or I'm getting bad magic phases (dice games!). Being able to throw my capital unit into his with confidence means I'm not leaning too heavily on my ranged and magic, or indeed phoenix guard, to break the horde's back in order to avoid dice calamities for my knights. I can go for character assassinations and/or grind the horde out (staying safe from shooting) without worrying about dodgy break tests. It's just an option, but it's a great one to have for a cav unit with relatively little static res as compared with a full horde of biguns. And if it only means that my other units are free to focus down more support troops and the trolls, tasks particularly suited to them, it brings me more options still, and likely some direct benefits in the mid-late game. It's good to know I don't have to rely on my ranged to do everything in this matchup.

Anyway, it was you who put the idea in my head of taking the Crown in he first place - the credit is yours!
Last edited by Seredain on Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#20 Post by Curu Olannon »

Archers can definitely be a threat vs OnG chaff with Hand of Glory, I guess my biggest worry here is that it either reduces your bus (which I`m especially reluctant to do vs Doom Divers) or takes away from Reavers (highly valuable for Fanatics and Manglers). In any case, Hand of Glory on them means you won`t cast it on the PG and this is typically a spell you need to get off early on.

As for Crown I know it`s an amazing item. It`s a cop-out for those situations you don`t have an answer to. Although I might`ve been suggesting it I won´t take credit for it, it`s a widely used item that I by no means started a trend in bringing. In fact I think it`s a stupidly good item that probably should not have been in the game, but that`s another story as we make our lists to be as strong as possible.

36 S5 attacks is nasty business. Assuming WS4 or lower you`re looking at quite a few casualties. What unit dishes out this amount of hurt, though? I can´t remember ever having encountered this kind of force concentration into one unit.
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#21 Post by SpellArcher »

Savage Big'uns with AHW presumably?

Horded, 7 frontage vs 5-wide Helms, 21+7+7?
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#22 Post by Seredain »

Pretty much SA! This matchup is where you can both take a pounding on your knights and have no steadfast, unless you shoot/magic the savages first. CoC allows you to grind this unit without that kind of help (or needing less of it), freeing up more ranged resources for the shooting/chaff war.

That Savage Horde is mean business against ordinary helms. Numbers against war machines I'm less worried about at the moment - 12 FC with Ironcurse and High Magic has been working fine - partly because of the +1-3 ward save, partly because all the missiles I pump out help clear out those machines and chaff, partly because the CoC means you can be much less picky in putting the helms into combat with serious units early and so stay safe grinding with the characters.

For chaff I run 5 reavers w/ spears, 2 eagles and a Star Lance noble with Charmed Shield and Golden Crown (though he can bus it if you want) - trying him in place of the 5 dragon princes since he's so manoeuvrable and can nail chariot cannons better. I feel the flying chaff for 50 points brings, in addition to the reaver unit, more flexibility than going pure reavers (which can't easily park safe behind your units or impassable terrain and easily remain in play). In the end, of course, it's nice to spend only 50 points when you explode that mangler instead of 80-105. Core fast cav is no joke, but an elven shooting phase with 23 archers has a lot of value in matchups like this. Usually I can just magic+shoot the mangler and save the chaff entirely for block harrassment or war machine hunting. Those bows can also reach out to war machines without putting them in immediate danger from short bows, fanatics, chariots and cowboy characters.

Edit: on Hand of Glory, in this matchup (as in most) cav characters hit on 3s in any case, any spell from the bus adds +1 ward, and the phoenix guard likewise hit on 3s and don't care much with a 3++. Early game, my High Magic is all about maximum damage output to win this support/shooting war: 2xQuench, HoG+archers is the way to get this max ranged damage on top of 4 bolters. Convocation and Unforging on top are the icing on the cake but the bread and butter (to mix baking metaphors) has Hand working on damage output primarily, before augmented movement etc - we have WBW for that. Having the movement buff helps for covering flanks, gaining close range etc, though, so archers remain a good target. -1 to hit in combat is great against goblins in particular - worth remembering that 3 ranks of archers can be a good combat unit against greenskins. Of course late game you're free to switch to buffing the knights amd guard for the big combats. Fluking a WS 9 on your BSB is always nice, as is giving the prince +1 to hit a Blorc lord. Putting the archmage in centrally deployed P guard gives you all the options.
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#23 Post by Curu Olannon »

So if I have your setup you are running roughly the following:
Prince with stuff
High AM on horsie with stuff and CoC
High Mage on foot with scroll in PG
BSB on horsie with BOTWD or stuff
Noble on horsie with stuff

12 Helms
23 Archers
5 Reavers

PG block

4 RBTs
1 Great Eagle

I assume you consider your secondary mage to be expendable, given that he is going with the PG. I have a similar setup myself, only I`ve tried tricking out the AM with sufficient equipment so he can survive with the PG, also sending the mage here for 2++ vs magic. This makes the BSB somewhat exposed (which is my main concern at the moment - list is still untested though), but instead I have managed to squeeze in a Frostbird which I think has a lot of synergy with this list. Specific draft:
Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893

17 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 421
5 Reavers, Champion, Bows = 95
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 601

22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 405
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & rare = 905

Army Total = 2399
I wish our PG champ could take magic armour. This would allow me to take the MR1 on him and send the mage on horseback. I guess I could ditch the Frostheart which would leave me with points for 2 Nobles: One on foot (pushing the Beasts mage into rank 2) with for example Shield of The Merwyrm and Sword of Anti Heroes and on on horseback to push the BSB into the second rank. This concentrates the force a bit more, but I feel kind of naked without the bird. Playtesting needed.

I`m curious about your double High setup. I picked Beasts largely because Wyssan`s is a terrifying spell for both the bus and the PG actually. 3-4PD usually draws equally many DD and it can be boosted without fearing for the L4. Don`t you feel a second mage with High brings diminishing returns?
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#24 Post by Curu Olannon »

Thinking about this a little more, I have a feeling the following setup would be interesting for the bus:

Prince on horsie with Prince-stuff.
Archmage on horsie with stubborn-stuff
BSB on horsie
Big helmbus => 3 wide as standard formation. The unit is basically not meant to break stuff on the charge. With enough wounds, 2+ can be surprisingly hard to grind despite of our T3. This frees up points to be invested to help the PG. Perhaps the Frostheart is a bit overkill, but I know for a fact that I like my PG with a 3++ and 2++ vs magic. If we leave the Frostheart at home and assume 4 RBT + bird, we`re looking at roughly the following:

Prince 263
Archmage 295
BSB 172

Core 600
PG 405

Rare 330

Total = 2065

This basically allows us to squeeze in a few characters with the PG, drastically increasing their potential. In a nutshell, these guys are the killers whereas the Helms` primary role is to support. Somewhat reversed. Archmage Lore is up for discussion but given this setup, consider me a big fan of Life:

Noble Merwyrm Shield, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Dragon Armour = 125
Noble Heavy Armour, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield = 124
Mage Scroll, MR(1) = 125
Total = 374

Army total = 2439. Easily adjustable to 2400 and 2500. For 2400, dropping an RBT allows the mage to pick up L2 as well. This gives you a fearsome array of defensive spells and the list can play quite flexibly as well. Let`s see a specific draft:
Cavbus + PG wrote: Prince on Barded Steed, Shield, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon = 273
Life Archmage on Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Golden Crown of Atrazar = 305
Lords = 578

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear, Banner of the World Dragon = 168
High Mage Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 150
Noble, Shield of the Merwyrm, Sword of Anti Heroes, Dragon Armour = 125
Noble, Heavy Armour, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield = 124
Heroes = 567

17 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 421
5 Reavers, Champion, Bows = 95
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 601

21 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 390

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
Great Eagle = 50

Army Total = 2396
Combining this with the original topic, i.e. HE facing OnG, we see that we have ticked a number of boxes that allow us to counter their threats: As far as High Elves go this list is about as durable as they get. We have a flexible setup with multiple support units and 2 hard main units. One weakness is possibly its ability to deal serious damage at range, but I believe Dwellers combined with the defaultable Soul Quench provide enough to at least contend this part of the game vs a lot of armies.

We also see that this is basically a slight variation of the somewhat mainstream (by now) setup with a cavbus with characters supported by WL. Basically the fighting power has been taken away from the cavalry and put in the infantry, with the cav largely acting as a shield for the army and a haven for the L4 and Prince to work their magic (no pun intended). The inherent frailty of the foot characters (they are frail despite the strong wards because of their poor armour saves) is somewhat outweighed by Lifebloom. I`m not 100% on their equipment though. Will consider options, but their role is largely to stay alive, implicitly keeping the second mage alive and adding grinding power to the PG.
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#25 Post by Seredain »

Hey Curu,

Got to catch a flight home in 4.5 hours so will reply properly in a bit - give me time to look properly at your list and talk 6 levels of High. For now, here's my list:

Prince - Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed (Bus)

Archmage - Lvl 4, High, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury (Phoenix Guard)

BSB - Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Dragon Armour, Barded Steed (Bus)

Mage - Lvl 2, High, Crown of Command, Scroll of Shielding, Steed (Bus)

Noble - Star Lance, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Dragon Armour, Barded Steed (usually solo)

12 Helms - Command, Shields
23 Archers - Mus
5 Reavers - Spears

21 Phoenix Guard - Command, Razor Standard

4 Repeaters
1 Eagle
1 Eagle

2500

The Star Lance noble is something I'm trying for the ace movement and extra armour pen. I might miss the flaming attacks from the DPs but, so far, the swap has got me some more oomph against moncav etc and enough points to get the Ring.

Back shortly!
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Re: vs Orcs and Goblins

#26 Post by Seredain »

Curu,

Looking at the suggested list, I think the phoenix guard-star has some merit, but it's also a huge amount of points and (since it needs to go 5 wide to protect the mage), really is relying too much on the Sword of Anti-Heroes for its damage output. It's ok against the savage orcs (probably looking at 6 Str 7 attacks while all enemy characters are alive), but what about the trolls and/or black orcs? If you're using the massive helms unit for support or anvil duties, these phoenix guard need to be choppy against everything and currently I'm not sure they are. The major damage dealer in the list seems to be Dwellers and, if you do take Life, you're relying on 1 Soul Quench at +3 (if you don't want to double up on ward-buffing for combat - not an easy choice), 3 repeaters, 10 bowshots (and those from reavers with other duties) to clear out all that greenskin chaff. As you say the list has a weakness at dealing damage at range. That means, against the green gunline, you'll have to go forward. I think, therefore, it's worth looking at putting some more solid killing power into those capital units so they can actually do that and really mean it. As it stands they may grind all day but they might not kill their points worth in the process. How about Beasts magic on the archmage to snipe out machines with amber spear, curse the ward horde and buff all those characters..?
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