High Elves vs. Ogre Kingdom

[TheItalian567]

So one of my primary players in my meta plays Ogre Kingdom and I find myself REALLY struggling against the high Toughness/Str of his units.

The first game, his cannon just whipped me off the map. Thankfully, we're both working around the rules (both returning players) so it's fun and enjoyable. I was just wondering some tactics you guys implement to deal with either Ogres or high S/T units in general.

To give you an idea of what I usually use against him: 2500 pt games...

11 silver helms w/ prince bus

archmage, bsb w/ 20 swordmasters (razor standard and lore of shadows)

11 archers w/ High mage

22 LSG (thinking of making them spearmen)

6 shadow warriors

5x2 ellyrian reavers

5 dragon princes

noble on great eagle


.....

What I've noticed is that he just always goes right for my LSG, which I mean is fine. Last game I was able to beat him by dropping Pit of Shades on his deathstar and killing his main hero and a ton of his ogres with their AP great weapons.

What beats Ogres/High toughness!

[Sackree]

What list is he running and I will be able to give you some more in depth advice on how to handle him? Also what models do you own so we can look at a good list for you to use in order to counter him with.

And regardless of all that a quick way to kill an orge is to 6 dice purple fun every turn from the safety of your BotWD unit. It also bypasses the runemaw as it doesn't target units

[theviking]

I think you're on the right track, spears would probably be better than LSG just for the ranks. Otherwise maybe the archer horde would be better than either. Also swap out the shadow warriors for a pair of eagles, you need all the speed bumps you can get against an army as fast as ogres.

I've found one of the best ways to handle an ironblaster (and being an ogre player also, one of the surest ways to lose the fool thing) is a flank or rear charge with light cav. You don't even need to do many wounds, just the combat res should make him take a break test and if he doesn't flee then you will at least tie it up for his turn.

[TheItalian567]

His list, and excuse the names for I do not recall all of them:

2 of those chariot cannons- damn those hurt. Ironblasters?

8 or 9 leadbelchers w/ a ... thing.. maybe a champion? with a pistol.. I cannot recall who it was.

iron gut deathstar w/ a firebelly.. This might have been 16 big or so? maybe 18

regular ogres deathstar w/ a butcher.. I'd say this was smaller than the iron guys around 12 or 13.

I really need something with more staying power to weather the storm of ogres- like PGs

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the iron guts i tore apart with the pit of shades, the ogres killed my LSG, overran them and then were flanked by my prince/helm bus. noble on chicken, shadow warriors and dragon princes were either killed outright by the cannons (noble/warriors) or hit hard on the charge by the leadbelchers before losing in CC (dragon princes- 2 before the charge, 1 to the challenge, and the rest to the fight)

His cannons just worked the rest of my units really. I got lucky he messed up the rules so he didn't score as many just outright kills as he should have. I won by victory points as I had everything except for my chicken still standing character wise.


AS FOR MODELS I OWN:

18 archers
8 silver helms
5 dragon princes
22 IoB LSG
20 IoB SMs
2 IoB Mages
2 old metal mages (one on horse)
10 IoB Reavers
6 old metal shadow warriors
1 BSB
1 mounted prince
2 IoB Griffon prince/nobles
1 Loremaster

-----
Might be buying this for $145 from a buddy that doesn't play anymore:
1 HE Batallion
2 Great Eagles
20 WLs
20 PGs
Another noble/prince box (which I might make into a mounted BSB)
a mage box
I BELIEVE that's it.

There it all is!

[Rabidnid]

What your buddy is selling sounds great. Both WLs and PG do much better versus the ogres than LSG will. Loremaster is also an option versus ogres. When I'm feeling mean 2x lvl 1 shadow mages and a lore master can make their whole army grind to a halt with 3 miasmas a turn. Wissans on your SMs or WL will have them wounding more easily, negating armour saves, and a little harder to wound with T-4. PG are a great tarpit unit and with a prince or anointed with a giant blade or similar can do some damage as well. If you stick with shadow on a lvl 4, spears and PG are a great target for okkams.

[Mist]

I don't recommend changing your list just to play one army, so find one which is well balanced against all and play that.
As for ogres and how to play them in general, I see you have not mentioned Hell heart so he must not use it which is a good thing for you.
To deal with his cannons you need to remember that they have only a 36" range, and that if they are shooting at you and could hit a friendly unit then they cannot fire, so if you move your eagle noble between them and one of their own units they will normally not be able to shoot (they need 20" of free space to not hit their own unit), then charge in with the eagle noble next turn, he should be able to handle one on his own.
Ogres have a good T but normally no armor, so you normally do a fair amount of W in hand to hand, but a little bit of magic will go a long way, just a -1 to his T will be all you need.
Ogres have low Ld, so look to take out units early and cause panic tests. Look for units outside the Lord or BSB bubble and cause panic or terror tests.
Use your re directors (eagles and reavers, sometimes a small unit of anything) to stop him getting the charges he wants, he only has 2 blocks and no re directors himself so you should only getting into hand to hand if you want to be.
Get rid of those Leadbelchers as soon as possible, they will chew you up.

[theviking]

2 of those chariot cannons- damn those hurt. Ironblasters?

Yup, the original chariot cannon. Like any chariot beware the charge, but if you can get into the flank or rear the beast can't attack so then you're just fighting a T6 ogre. A bit of static res and the odd wound or two should do the trick.

8 or 9 leadbelchers w/ a ... thing.. maybe a champion? with a pistol.. I cannot recall who it was.

Either a tyrant or a bruiser battle standard bearer, both can have pistols. Probably the BSB as most ogre players use a slaughtermaster for their general.

hit hard on the charge by the leadbelchers before losing in CC (dragon princes- 2 before the charge, 1 to the challenge, and the rest to the fight)

Just to clarify, the leadbelchers charged you? And the dragon princes were already down a few models from the leadblechers shooting at them? Or they did a stand and shoot when you charged them? Because they are slow to fire and can't stand and shoot.

To deal with his cannons you need to remember that they have only a 36" range, and that if they are shooting at you and could hit a friendly unit then they cannot fire, so if you move your eagle noble between them and one of their own units they will normally not be able to shoot (they need 20" of free space to not hit their own unit), then charge in with the eagle noble next turn, he should be able to handle one on his own.

I would recommend not trying this. Ironblasters can move 6 inches and then fire, so unless you are absolutely certain neither the ironblaster nor the blocking unit will be moving in his turn I bet he can figure out how to line up a legal shot. Also he can pivot to get your noble in the front arc so you will have to fight the rhinox when you charge, which is not a winning situation. you really need to have the flank or rear if you charge an ironblaster with a light unit.

[TheItalian567]

@Mist: Sorry if it came off like I'm changing my whole list just to suit him. I'm just wondering what our tools are against Ogres because I always comes down to just a grueling pitched battle where I always feel like I'm going up-hill. I did NOT know that about the cannon though! Great news! Yeah I'm finding that the magic is decimating him as I almost dominate the magic phase.

If I kill all of his casters, then he cannot dispel in the magic phase, can he? Lastly, I think he had a doom heart or something? His Firebelly had some ability that allows for mages not to cast within a certain distance from him.

@Rabidnd yeah, i'm stoked to pick that all up. Seems like a solid deal for the price (considering 20 WLs and 20 PGs is like $165). Also allows me to kit bash a bit more and make a mounted BSB and on-foot prince for versatility. I have never considered an Annointed and I don't know why.. I'm worried about the points vs. benefits. the stubborn is great (negates having to get crown of command) and the ItP is cool with the MR, but is his stat line worth the point cost?

@theviking I was making a long charge at his belchers, failed and moved like.. 5 inches.. he opened up and killed 2. another long charge, this time a success- he challenged me in the combat as I did not challenge him. lost the champion. then lost my DPs.

Both games, I have made poor placement of the DPs and ended up having them squared up against the leadbelchers. It's a poor matchup with the amount of shots they get.


---


I still really need to learn to use chaff because I'm hating my Reavers as I just don't know how to really use them I think. I got into a front charge on his chariot which did all of nothing, and my other unit was mowed down by his belchers in his first shooting phase after vanguard. My SW I deployed 6" from his cannon, which he pivoted on and killed in the first shooting phase as well.

One problem is that i play at a GW which uses a very small board. I think it's 3.5'x4 or 5. We were playing along the long end. So everything happens fast and there's not much room to maneuver away from anything- let alone finesse movement along the deployment line. You really only have the option of moving straight forward.

[theviking]

Fighting ogres with elves is usually an uphill battle, the best I've ever managed was a 8-12 loss. They are fast and hit hard, and HE are squishy. It's a rough match up for us. As you have found magic is one of their biggest weaknesses, and happens to be our strength.

The firebelly probably had the hellheart, which is a one use item that makes all enemy mages within a random distance roll on the miscast table and suffer the results. Being random it can be completely useless or overwhelmingly game changing, depending on the dice.

Any army can dispel, even dwarves who have no wizards at all. However, once you kill his wizards (or they miscast and lose their levels) they can't apply their wizard level bonus to the dispel roll. Same applies if they fail to dispel, it's just the dice and no bonus.

[SpellArcher]

As s WE player Ogres are one of my better match-ups.

Couldn't say for DE's.

[Mist]

No, that is not hell heart, that is a banner (rune maw) it stops all spell cast on that unit on a 2 + (I think), the hell heart causes a miscast on all enemy mages within a 6xD6 range, used at the start of your magic phase (normally turn 2), basically nerfs your phase as most miscasts cause you to lose D6 magic dice even if you don't lose your mage.
As for how I deal with them I run seaguard and swordmasters, Teclis, 2nd level, both phoenix, eagle noble, bsb, 3 units of reavers, 2 bolt throwers. the Flame is a strong war machine hunter, so is the noble (with a 2++ save against the first cannon), the reavers will be redirecting, and the sea guard and bolts will be going after the belchers. Sword masters will deal with the other units and teclis will do his thing. The frosty will be either war machine hunting or helping the sword masters.
Small boards will help him a lot and reduce the reavers to being more of just speed bumps and not their true role as fast cav as you don't have the room to maneuver .
I did not think you were asking for a list to just fight ogres, but some of the others were heading down that track, no offence to anybody.

theviking: an eagle noble is not a light unit and he has 2 cannons so you should be able to get one in the side with the dragon princes or the eagle noble. Charging any chariot in the front is not ideal. Making him move is part of the battle and can set him up for things in the later rounds.

[Rabidnid]

@Rabidnd yeah, i'm stoked to pick that all up. Seems like a solid deal for the price (considering 20 WLs and 20 PGs is like $165). Also allows me to kit bash a bit more and make a mounted BSB and on-foot prince for versatility. I have never considered an Annointed and I don't know why.. I'm worried about the points vs. benefits. the stubborn is great (negates having to get crown of command) and the ItP is cool with the MR, but is his stat line worth the point cost?
.

A prince with MR 2, armour of destiny and a halberd is about 223. The 4+ ward he gets is worth a lot, as it the 2 MR and 6+ ward he gives the unit. Stick him in a unit of WL with a lvl 4 high mage and your unit will be sitting around 4++ ward and Magic Resistance of 2++

Enchanted shield, crown of command, dawn stone and sword of antiheroes and he is rerollable 3+ armour save, 4+ ward and 2++ verus spells. Verus a unit with 2 characters in it he is S-6 and 5 attacks with the sword of antiheroes. He is the toughest foot character we have.

[SpellArcher]

There's a case for the Anointed here.

[TheItalian567]

Update: I played my ogre nemesis this past weekend. It went well! I took a lot of pointers from using chaff properly and that REALLY helped. I was able to dictate who charged who, or I was able to redirect his army to within charge range of my units. Man, not having those impact his to deal with was HUGE.

Again, I play at a GW store and the guy I play against is my only fight on Saturdays it seems haha.

We played my HEs vs. his OK + Nagash alliance (he made the unit and we both wanted to see what it was like on the board)

His army:

3 Mournfangs w/ Neferata w/ FC + Razor Standard
9 ogres w/ FC
5 ironguts w/ FC
Nagash

I misdirected one of his charges from his mournfangs into my reavers and lined him up for a perfect flank charge from my Prince bus. Surprisingly, he decided to flee as his reaction, but couldn't rally afterward and ran off the board by the start of his 2nd or 3rd turn.. No mournfangs to deal with!

Same thing with his ogres and I charged him with all of my LSG (first time I've been able to use that juicy Str bonus with spears), Managed to win the combat and kill them on the overrun.

I kept his Ironguts locked down by double fleeing with the reavers.

Nagash.. on the other hand.. blew through all of my LSG, my Noble on a GE, and my archers w/ High mage.

When my Cav bus + DPs got into CC, I was able to knock off his last 2 wounds.

My SM Deathstar didn't even get to see combat, but did a GREAT job chasing stuff around the board!

I went with Light magic to try that out. In retrospect, I should have made both mages Light as I didn't realize how much of a benefit you get from Banishment with multiple mages. Banishment works wonders on Nagash as he has to reroll his ward if successful.

[theviking]

Good work! What did you have in your list?

Couple things stand out to me, first is that I don't think neferata can flee. Most undead are immune to psychology so they can only hold as a charge reaction. I haven't seen her rules though so maybe she can. I'm pretty sure you should have had that flank charge though.

Second, in the LSG combat are you referring to the +1 strength when charging with spears? That only applies to mounted troops. Infantry have an extra rank of attacks if they wield spears.

[TheItalian567]

Yeah we both are really new with the newest edition of rules, so we kind of just stumble about, blundering here and there. Especially with the spears hah.

The Neferata fact is something we weren't sure of. Since she's in a unit of 3 mournfangs that DO flee- what happens in that event?

Also we got wonky with the rules on hording as well with his ogres.

My army was:
5x DP w/ FC & Banner of Swiftness (star lance on champ)
11x archers
5x reavers w/ bows
5x reavers w/ bows
22x LSG w/ FC
7x Silver Helms w/ FC
6x Shadow Warriors
20x SM w/ FC & Razor Standard
Noble on great eagle w/ ironcurse, reaver bow
Archmage lv4 w/ book of hoeth, golden crown (with SMs) - Light
BSB w/ crown of command and shield of myrwyrm (with SMs)
Mage lv2 w/ dispell scroll - High
Prince on horse with Dawnstone, ogreblade, armor of fortune

Lil under 2500 pts

[Sackree]

Unbreakable characters cannot join regular units, so she shouldn't have been in the mournfang unit. Never mind though as long ad the game was fun

[Rabidnid]

I went with Light magic to try that out. In retrospect, I should have made both mages Light as I didn't realize how much of a benefit you get from Banishment with multiple mages. Banishment works wonders on Nagash as he has to reroll his ward if successful.

Yeah, light is excellent against undead and gives you some strong buffs as well. As long as you're in a position to do most of your damage in CC, its a great support lore. Loremaster and lvl 4 light rocks.

[TheItalian567]

Has anyone tried Shadow/Light?

I've been doing Lv 4 Shadow/ Lv2 High and it's been a fun support- I mean I don't really roll that well and the support mage is with archers, so he doesn't get a ton of use from the abilities past T1/T2, but it's still nice to have the ward save.

[Galois]

I play a couple of swordmaster walls just to kill/wound his characters, you let him charge them and slowly kill his lords and heroes. Yes, cavalry, either reavers or silver helms, can outmaneuver and be a nuisance to the chariot war machines. High magic is a good idea to get some ward saves, but lore of shadows is just wonderful, okham's can make your archers or spears to obliterate any ogre unit. The ogre kingdoms may be quick, but their units are huge so use the field scenery to make them choke and redirect them to your heavy hitting infantry.

[TheItalian567]

I play a couple of swordmaster walls just to kill/wound his characters, you let him charge them and slowly kill his lords and heroes. Yes, cavalry, either reavers or silver helms, can outmaneuver and be a nuisance to the chariot war machines. High magic is a good idea to get some ward saves, but lore of shadows is just wonderful, okham's can make your archers or spears to obliterate any ogre unit. The ogre kingdoms may be quick, but their units are huge so use the field scenery to make them choke and redirect them to your heavy hitting infantry.

Problem with letting him charge is that all ogres have impact hits. Ouch! 5+ AS w/ T3 is not going to receive that very well. Okham's won't affect the archers as shooting is factored at the weapon's strength

I've been seeing a lot more luck with using reavers to pull his ogres out of line for flank charges/charges in general just so that I don't have to deal with those impact hits.