Troubled with Wood Elves

[ArcaneSnow]

I see the post below me that already stated that another HE player is struggling with WEs, but after reading that thread a bit, it appears it's starting to stray off from the main point a little bit, so I'm just going to leave another new thread here.

I've been playing against wood elves a bit more recently and it appears I struggle quite a bit with them. By struggling, I mean that I consistently get tabled by turn 4-5. It's not that I find myself playing horribly or have bad luck with rolls, but simply combat to combat, I can't out maneaveur or out punch them in any way.

Here's my examples.
A couple games, my opponents ran shooting heavy lists. 3 units of 10 poison arrows archers, 3 units of 10 true flight, and 2 units of waywatchers. (Way watchers are the double shot ones right?) to back that up, they've got wilder riders, and sisters.
Trouble with those games is that shooting has answer to everything. Double shots negate botwd unit, poison takes out cav, eagles, and anything t4+, true flight loccksdown WL and their lions cloak, and magic is just nail in the coffin.
Problem was that there were too many targets, and by the time I get to one unit, there wasn't much left to kill it.

Played another WE list today and this time it was a no shooting list.
3 units of wild riders, durthu, dryads, treeman, and lvl4 shadow. Once again.. Couldn't do much. Mind razor wild rider kills frost heart turn one. Mind razor wardancer takes out large SM block turn 2. Dryads fight really well against WL. Treeman hold up lots of other things easy cause of high T. Wild riders kill things super easy on charge and are either always in combat or in a possition where 4 bolt throwers couldn't find them as target. Main concern. Asf is useless and Initiative is either lower or simultaneous. Which really makes the elite infantry much less effective. Shooting something or charging something that hides in forests, also really annoying.

So... That's my semi rant/issue with wood elves. Advice?
Normal problem, or is it just me?

[SpellArcher]

Wood Elves have traditionally been a difficult opponent for other elves because shooting matters big time in elf v elf match-ups. With the current HE book things are not so simple because it's not so reliant on M5 infantry as previously.

What list have you been using AS? This is critical.

[f00ssa]

WE magic arrows are magic items, so he can't have the same magic arrows on multiple units?
Unless you have a houserule?

RBTs and enough units to keep the poison away?

[SpellArcher]

Most British tournies at least play that you can duplicate.

There's a lot of argument about it.

[Ether Dude]

WE magic arrows are magic items, so he can't have the same magic arrows on multiple units?
Unless you have a houserule?

If you have to rely on rules lawyering to take away the abilities of your opponent's army, you don't deserve to win. It's also hotly debated and nobody (50+ player Swedish, American, UK, Dutch, German, or ETC tournaments) forces the WE into taking only one unit with a given upgrade.

As for how to deal with WE, you need to magic missile off the greatest threats (usually waywatchers) and put lots of pressure on the archers. I recommend the lore master with ring of khaine.

RBTs have 1 or 2 turns of shooting at most, make it count by killing off wild riders.

Deploy WD infantry (or phoenix guard) 40*1 and just march them up the field. You give your cav heavy cover, and can force long range penalties as well. Long, heavy cover, move=-4, hitting on 6s against your cavalry. After 2 turns of marching up, you should be in range to charge and clear off the smaller archer units.

Terrain and distances are hugely important. Put RBTs >35" from his small archer units. Hide frosty behind cover and terrain so the poison archers need 7+ to hit.

He has an advantage, therefore you need to play well to overcome it. This is a good thing!

Cheers,
Ether

[SpellArcher]

What if the WE player charges the single rank PG with Wild Riders ED? What if he's not playing avoidance? Could work but I'd try it with Stubborn WD Lions. I assume from your post that you're still playing the mid-sized Swordmaster block with MSU Lions AS? I'd agree that an avoidance WE list does have an edge over your old list because it is elite infantry-based. This is not the case against some HE armies. Again though, it'd be really helpful to see the list set out.

Agree with shooting Wild Riders as a priority (maybe deploy the RBT last?) and building magic missiles into the list. Assume you have a Dispel Scroll vs Mindrazor AS? If he's continually IF'ing it and surviving the miscasts that's unlucky. Again it sounds like he's picking the combats, another problem with an infantry-heavy list. In general small GW elites do not enjoy fighting true ASF as you've said. This is why units of 20+ with Shield of Saphery or similar are more in vogue now.

[Curu Olannon]

Wood Elves have traditionally been a difficult opponent for other elves because shooting matters big time in elf v elf match-ups. With the current HE book things are not so simple because it's not so reliant on M5 infantry as previously.

This. 100% this. Many Dark Elf and Wood Elf configurations will completely and utterly tear apart many traditional builds that we can make. It`s just a fact of life, the same way facing multiple cannons on planet bowling ball is going to make the game extremely hard for a Star Dragon list.

Thus, it boils down to a simple question: Are you willing to adjust your list, perhaps even abandon your current playing style, to adapt to this situation, or do you consider these armies infrequent enough so that you can accept it as a bad matchup and move on with the same list/playstyle?

Wood Elves and Dark Elves (In this case they largely play the same. DE with Dark Riders, Darkshards and RBTs with pegheroes and warlocks as counter-chargers are largely the same army to face as shooty-heavy WE) have a number of weaknesses that we can exploit. Preferences for how to deal with these differ from player to play, but they inevitably boil down to bringing damage back to him across the table. Fast. Whether you do this by RBTs, Archers and magic (the fastest you can get, T1), cavalry or monsters (typically turns 2-3) or some other way is up to you. Sitting still like a duck with your T3 M5 5+ units will get you shot down easily though.

Personally I think these lists + the nature of HE lists loading up on RBTs impacts the meta enough to warrant building a list that can handle it. Previously we saw Shadow being a popular lore for High Elves as Mindrazored <insert any ASF unit in our book> will really just rape any <insert any unit in Warhammer> in 1 round of combat, extremes exempted of course. To me, the game has changed now to a point where it`s a lot more about board control (Lizardmen also plays this way as well, so there really are quite a few armies that have moved away from big blocks fighting big blocks style of play), multiple units, low amounts of big-point anchors that are sluggish and more about force concentration.

Taking a look at the more recent builds that have shown up, we see a big popularity in High Magic which makes perfect sense: Apotheosis helps keeping our monsters going in these fights, Walk Between Worlds is a real game-breaker vs these types of armies, Soul Quench just devastates Elven MSU/MMU as well as Lizardmen whereas Fiery Convocation is a nightmare for many armies. Also, Arcane Unforging can be a game changer if your opponent has a key item (or even just a dispel scroll, force it out early so he can`t rely on it). Furthermore we see Loremaster and Heavens gaining popularity, again lores that are great at dictating the pace of the game and providing large amounts of board control from T1.

I`d like you to consider these things carefully before replying. What army list do you play? Do you feel it`s worth mixing it up? If yes, how much are you willing/capable of changing?

[Ether Dude]

What if the WE player charges the single rank PG with Wild Riders ED? What if he's not playing avoidance?

As to the first part, say halleluja as you take off his only combat power quite easily. 21 attacks, 10 hit, 9 wound=4.5 dead PG. 9 back, 4.5 hit, 3 wound, no saves=steadfast and a gutted wild rider unit. Sure it would hurt, but PG are really good at soaking hand grenade units like wild riders.

If the WE player is not playing avoidance, well, I've never seen it tbh. I'd like to try it out I think. In any event, if no avoidance then you have the shooting power and can force him to walk to you. Good scenario for you, so I'm not sure what the issue is? Wood elf combat units don't really bring the pain for more than one turn.

[Baleanoon]

So in any elf vs elf match up who goes first is a huge indicator of who will win the game. The first Magic and shooting phases are huge, as every shot you stop saves a life. Going first against DEs Can be the difference between 1 warlock and no Dark riders left, and having your flank crushed it is that big a deal when using your traditional HE army. DEs and WE are generally able to mitigate this because their army is so fast, or manuverable or both! HEs have a much harder time "Re-deploying" and with a significantly devastating first turn WEs and DEs can almost win the game, by forcing you to give up your own first turn to strengthen your own battleline.

Personally I'm leaning towards only 2 real top competitive builds, multiple Phoenix with 2x High/Light mage, or a Teclis/Loremaster based army because of this. I think the Phoenix build has been pretty well explained, Teclis has the flexibility to be backed by a ton of shooting and still be capable in combat, and have the ability to bring Loremaster High Magic when it is useful, while Loremaster packs multiple Magic Missiles.

That all being said, I don't think we've seen the best competitive build yet, and I fear it so much I don't even want to post its elements on a public forum for fear of them spreading.

[SpellArcher]

I'm not seeing the maths here ED. Even a 5-strong WR unit has 25 attacks on the charge. They get an AS of a 6 then a Ward of a six. What if they start seven or eight strong, losing two still breaks Steadfast. What if he puts two units in? Or three? Or other stuff into that massive frontage? It's his turn, a buff is likely.

Smith F's list? Or Dr Strangelove's? Or yours? People have grabbed the easy stuff to play and not looked any deeper. Wild Riders are great but you can build other stuff. Any build is going to have a shed-load of enchanted arrows backing it up. Like I said, detail of both lists is important here.

[ArcaneSnow]

To answer the most important questions first. Yup, I'm still playing with msu elite infantry. I tried changing things up one or 2 games by running 1 big block of SM and 1 big block of WL and tried running 4 groups of smaller units. No luck with those either. I'm still running 4 bolt throwers, archer anvil, SH bus, 2 eagles and 2 groups of reavers to redirect or charge block in hopes to get in 1 or 2 rounds more shooting or in hopes to charge archers if they exist. Magic wise, I feel cheesy, but I usually take shadow and death. Even with Mindrazor and Purple sun, I can't seem to push the game too much into my favor. I've also tried Shadow and High to give my SM or WL groups 5+ wards. It helped, but it's not consistent, making it only a temporary solution.

Secondly, of course I'm willing to change up lists and learn new playstyles. I wholesomely believe that learning new and better ways to command your army is the most important part of the game. It really isn't about winning all the time, but putting up a good fight and having the best tactical game I can is more important than simply winning. Losing due of bad rolls is something I can accept completely without any hard feelings. I believe that HEs have a wide variety of tools at our disposal, I just have to find the right one that lets me eek out a slight edge over Wood elves. That being said, I know this is an uphill battle most of the times.

Having first turn is obviously really important to dictating advantage, but the problem seems to be that I'm consistently getting tabled. First turn advantage is a thing, but I don't believe that it can dictate the outcome of the game that easily. Against a shooting list, taking first turn isn't that great. I take out a couple groups of wild riders, but he still has 1 or 2 left, after that, shooting takes me out. If it's the CC list, I still shoot them, but I'll have bigger concerns after cause shooting is useless after turn 1, due to everything will most likely be in combat by then.

So the non-avoidance list my buddy is trying has a couple threats. Durthu is difficult to kill. Maybe I'm unlucky, but 12 SM can attack him when charged front arc, with mindrazor, I still only managed to do 5 wounds, which isn't enough to kill. He heals after that. Dryads has same initiative with WL and SM, and high T so thats difficult. Since he runs 2 groups of 20+, its troublesome. 2 Treeman just soak wounds. And I tried to redirect, but 3 groups of 7 wild riders with mindrazor... is.. just... scary. The number of attacks is outrageous. Worst part of 2 games I've had against him was both on Battleline. He deployed first so I tried to counter deploy the best I could, but still no luck, even with good redirections to every charge.

[Baleanoon]

If you have first turn you should be pushing aggressively into magic missile range of Waywatchers and shooting his shooting units. Not trying to kill a unit of wild riders. You might not believe that is the case, but your experience a this point should say differently.

In the Elf match up the hierarchy of death goes as follows:

Fast Shooting

Shooting

Fast magic

Fast combat

Stationary magic

As a HE if you don't take care of these ias soon as possible you will consistently lose. Follow the formula even with your normal list and you will likely see immediate results. Maybe not victory right away but I doubt you get tabled. If you're lining up and trying to fight him flush on I can see why you would struggle. He can shoot your units until Wild Riders have sufficient attacks to finish you off. If you have shadow magic you should be lowering T and casting pit on the same treeman (pit first obviously), I feel like you're losing focus. Don't spread your strength around, remove units and move on.

[ArcaneSnow]

Problem is that if I try to get to waywatchers, I'm pushing my mages forward into decently open space. Killing them first turn would be nice, but having 3 units of wildriders in my side or in my back row by his turn one or turn 2 would hurt quite a bit as well. I'm willing to try your list of priorities, but from the 4-5 games I've played, wildriders are definitely the death of me. 6-7 separate units of arrows can do only so many wounds, but on a consistent basis, a unit of wildriders wipes out entire units on charge.

[SpellArcher]

Shadow and Death can be powerful but they are not traditionally great against elves. High Magic is a good lore here but tends to work better when you have fair-sized combat blocks to benefit from Shield of Saphery and get the spells into range. How big is the Helm bus and what characters does it have? MSU infantry just don't look ideal here because they strike last and die quickly.

Taking two Treemen against your list causes you problems (though as Baleanoon says you have Pit) while nerfing itself against cannon lists. If you have more shooting here, deploy back and use it. Do you have Shadow Warriors or Reavers? If so you can restrict Vanguard. But as said it is difficult to account for all the mechanics without an exact list to go on.

[Curu Olannon]

Could you post specific lists from one of your games?

[cptcosmic]

lore of heavens helps.
penalty to hit debuff
magic missiles
and the good old comet against pesky archers sitting in some woods out of reach

loremaster could also help.
penalty to hit debuff
attributes dedebuff
magic missiles

beside that, I dont know.