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 Post subject: Seaguard or spearmen?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:04 am 
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Im currently in the process of building my high elves from the battalion set and want to know should I make seaguard or spearmen? I already have 20 seaguard with another 10 coming soon. Should I boost this up or make a unit of 20 spearmen instead. My army current doesn't have spearmen so im thinking it may be a good choice.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:26 am 
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Neither, Archers or Silver Helms if you have them !! I had 15 archers in a friendly the other weekend and with a few admittedly good 6s on my wounding rolls, killed a Giant in 2 turns with them. Spearmen won't do that, and the Seaguard would need the Giant to be closer for that first shot. Archers are your friend, especially with all the spells out there capapble of boosting to hit and to wound rolls


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:12 am 
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Spears are fine. They are cheaper, better armoured and can take a magic banner. I use silver helms, spears and reavers as my core.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:18 am 
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Rabidnid wrote:
Spears are fine. They are cheaper, better armoured and can take a magic banner. I use silver helms, spears and reavers as my core.


Yeah im thinking Spears just because or their price. And it gives me another core option.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:21 am 
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SamBarker wrote:
Neither, Archers or Silver Helms if you have them !! I had 15 archers in a friendly the other weekend and with a few admittedly good 6s on my wounding rolls, killed a Giant in 2 turns with them. Spearmen won't do that, and the Seaguard would need the Giant to be closer for that first shot. Archers are your friend, especially with all the spells out there capapble of boosting to hit and to wound rolls


The battalion choice is spears or guard. It already comes with archers and im not into trying my hand with conversions to make them all archers.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:13 am 
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Silverhelms(!) and archers.

The discussion has been done many times before and ended always in favor of the archers.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:35 am 
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Casazzo wrote:
Silverhelms(!) and archers.

The discussion has been done many times before and ended always in favor of the archers.


Nope. I retired my archers for silver helms and spears. Unless you run shadow, archers are pretty useless. There are however lots of other ways to buff spears.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:57 am 
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Unless you run shadow, spearmen are pretty useless.

/fixed. :-)

No, really: Why are archers useless? I mean, sure, S3-shooting is far from being brilliant, but the 30" longbows can do some harm to chaff and single models.

AND: At least the bows can do something in round 1-3, while the spears have a hard time doing anything then ... counting in the shots, the extra rank of defensive attacks of the spearmen is inferior imho .... and you need 20 spearman to even get the extra attacks.

And btw: Why is shadow better for archers, but not spears`?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:12 pm 
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Casazzo wrote:
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Unless you run shadow, spearmen are pretty useless.

/fixed. :-)

No, really: Why are archers useless? I mean, sure, S3-shooting is far from being brilliant, but the 30" longbows can do some harm to chaff and single models.

AND: At least the bows can do something in round 1-3, while the spears have a hard time doing anything then ... counting in the shots, the extra rank of defensive attacks of the spearmen is inferior imho .... and you need 20 spearman to even get the extra attacks.


16 archers versus 7 silver helms is always in favour of the silver helms. Rather than small units of archers as bunkers, spears get an armour save and a magic banner, so if you want a fast bunker for your mage then spears are it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:39 pm 
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Ah the age old debate rises again. In short, there isn't really a single good answer as it depends on many things and lists with all of them can be successful. With our site search broken at the moment it's difficult to look for the older articles here on this topic but there are many of them around. A Google search might actually pull some of them up too.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:09 pm 
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Perhaps to answer the actual question in the OP, which wasn't which core is best by the way (for a hint, check the topic title...): it doesn't matter very much which of the 2 you make.

In most games you can proxy one as the other (so use seaguard as spearmen and vise versa). I so far have never met anyone who makes an issue out of this (though it must be said I don't play tournaments). Both models look very similar. Seaguard (LSG) are basically just spearmen with a bow attached.

If I were you I would build them as spearmen. As you say, you already have 30 LSG (20 + 10 on the way). That is normally enough for a unit of seaguard. Having 20 spearmen then offers some extra options. What you can do if you want to run a bigger unit of LSG or spearmen is make the front ranks of the actual model. And then if you want a bigger unit, then you can always add the others at the rear of the unit.

So if you would want to run a unit of 40 or 50 LSG, you would have 30 "real" LSG at the front of the unit. And then behind them, you would have just the normal spearmen. For LSG you can actually do the same with archers as well. When I started out, I just mixed archers and spearmen to form a unit of LSG. After all, that gave me a unit with both bows and spears, and a cheaper way to run an extra unit type.

If you want to know which is the stronger choice, then a lot has been written about that already. I can summarize a bit for you if you want.

Hope this helps a bit.

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:58 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Perhaps to answer the actual question in the OP, which wasn't which core is best by the way (for a hint, check the topic title...): it doesn't matter very much which of the 2 you make.

In most games you can proxy one as the other (so use seaguard as spearmen and vise versa). I so far have never met anyone who makes an issue out of this (though it must be said I don't play tournaments). Both models look very similar. Seaguard (LSG) are basically just spearmen with a bow attached.

If I were you I would build them as spearmen. As you say, you already have 30 LSG (20 + 10 on the way). That is normally enough for a unit of seaguard. Having 20 spearmen then offers some extra options. What you can do if you want to run a bigger unit of LSG or spearmen is make the front ranks of the actual model. And then if you want a bigger unit, then you can always add the others at the rear of the unit.

So if you would want to run a unit of 40 or 50 LSG, you would have 30 "real" LSG at the front of the unit. And then behind them, you would have just the normal spearmen. For LSG you can actually do the same with archers as well. When I started out, I just mixed archers and spearmen to form a unit of LSG. After all, that gave me a unit with both bows and spears, and a cheaper way to run an extra unit type.

If you want to know which is the stronger choice, then a lot has been written about that already. I can summarize a bit for you if you want.

Hope this helps a bit.

Rod



Thankyou for taking the time and reading my question. I dont think many people would have an issue with what yoy have said but I do know 1 or 2 who are sticklers for rules and not everything is always in spirit of the game. I think tje spears are the go for now. Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:39 am 
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Magnets. If you need to sometimes play the spears as Seaguard the bow&quiver can be painted and magnetized on for the battle in question.

I have no personal experience but the internet suggests it should be possible.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:48 am 
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To be honest, the best way is to pick what you need now, because I can almost guarantee that you will change what you need as you build and play.

When I first started my again recently I built up 15 Sea Guard and they have now become 15 Archers as I find that more useful as the points for games become higher. My opponents have not complained as long as I explain what they are and they have bows. The same for spears.

What I can add is that at lower point games, especially in the 500 to 1,000 points range the Sea Guard were very much more useful, combining the two roles for just a couple of extra points. Granted there is the reduced range of bows v longbows but at these point ranges it is a different issue to the higher 2400 point type games. In my case I freed up points for core cavalry.

But back to my first point, build what you need now for the games you are playing now. No one here would argue with that statement even though we each have our own core preferences. People have been very successful with both Sea Guard and Spearmen. You can always build more troops at a later date.

My philosophy on advice is: Listen (or read) to it all, but only use what you feel affects you. Your play style will be likely be different from 90% of us here and that influences opinions/replies, though each one will be given in an effort to help. You are in the right place for advice, there are some excellent posters here.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:21 am 
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f00ssa wrote:
Magnets. If you need to sometimes play the spears as Seaguard the bow&quiver can be painted and magnetized on for the battle in question.

I have no personal experience but the internet suggests it should be possible.


Yup. Drilling a small (1 mm) hole to add a magnet and paint over it. A quiver with a magnet attasched would then stick to it. I've seen a Tau army with magnetised arms that worked the same way.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:24 am 
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Taentagel wrote:
To be honest, the best way is to pick what you need now, because I can almost guarantee that you will change what you need as you build and play.

When I first started my again recently I built up 15 Sea Guard and they have now become 15 Archers as I find that more useful as the points for games become higher. My opponents have not complained as long as I explain what they are and they have bows. The same for spears.

What I can add is that at lower point games, especially in the 500 to 1,000 points range the Sea Guard were very much more useful, combining the two roles for just a couple of extra points. Granted there is the reduced range of bows v longbows but at these point ranges it is a different issue to the higher 2400 point type games. In my case I freed up points for core cavalry.

But back to my first point, build what you need now for the games you are playing now. No one here would argue with that statement even though we each have our own core preferences. People have been very successful with both Sea Guard and Spearmen. You can always build more troops at a later date.

My philosophy on advice is: Listen (or read) to it all, but only use what you feel affects you. Your play style will be likely be different from 90% of us here and that influences opinions/replies, though each one will be given in an effort to help. You are in the right place for advice, there are some excellent posters here.


Yeah there is a qealth of knowledge on here. I am yet to play a game and my first few will likely be around the 1500 point mark. Im thinking a group of spears now to expirment with so I can build up more of what I like more. A few choices in core for the smaller games should help me choose what I want in future large point battles.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:37 pm 
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seaguard because the IOB models look good :)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:23 pm 
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My apologies Muz. I read the last few posts and not the original one when I wrote my reply...

As to the question at hand, I really don't think it matters at all whether you build them as Seaguard or Spears. In my local club no one would mind if I used a unit as either. Given that you already have a bunch of LSG I would tend to agree with Prince of Spires about building spears this time.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:03 am 
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If you stick the bows on with super glue instead of plastic glue it's much easier to take them off afterwards too!

Ok it's not the prettiest at first but you can tidy it up. All depends on how perfectionist you are.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:09 pm 
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My advice would be to go with whichever you'd prefer to paint/have in your initial force. I agree with others that most players would be fine with you using them as either spearmen or seaguard in a game and if you were in some kind of tournament where it mattered, as has been mentioned here most of us wouldn't recommend taking either as core anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:20 pm 
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My preference is spearmen but i found that they both preform reasonable i find that the spearmen preform well for there cost and the seaguard for their cost are reasonable but other wise they are both good

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