Suggestions for a new player?

[Flame]

I've begun playing the High Elves recently, and I'd like to ask for some tips when playing them. The guy who I'll be playing against most often runs a Vampire Counts army, and he's particularly skilled with them. I've noticed that he tends towards very large, expensive units, making them prime targets for Fiery Convocation, and the fact that virtually everything in the VC army crumbles means that the hammer and anvil tactic is even more effective, though getting into position for that without getting shredded has proven a problem.
Does anybody have any recommendations as far as tactics go for them? I have a tentative army list made, based off of our last game together, in which I also played HE. I can post it here if you'd like.

[SpellArcher]

Welcome!



Post away, it'd be a good start.

[Flame]

Alright, the list contains:

• 14 Swordsmasters of Hoeth run seven wide, with a champion, musician, and standard, accompanied by a level 4 Archmage taking Lore of Life
• 29 Spearmen run six wide, with a champion, musician, and standard. Includes a noble with dragon armour, Spellthieving Sword, Shield of the Merwyrm, and the Banner of Eternal Flame
• 29 Spearmen identical to the above, except the noble is the BSB, and has the Enchanted Shield and Dawnstone
• 25 Phoenix Guard run five wide with a champion, musician, and standard, wielding halberds and wearing heavy armour
• 19 Sisters of Avelorn run five wide with a champion taking the Reaver Bow, accompanied by a level 4 Archmage taking Lore of High Magic
• 7 Ellyrian Reavers run seven wide with a champion and standard
• Great Eagle with Shredding Talons and Swiftsense
• Another Great Eagle with Shredding Talons and Swiftsense

It's 2500 points, by the way. He'll likely run a Mortis Engine, hence the Banner of Eternal Flame. In addition, he usually has a number of powerful casters in most units for Invocation of Nehek, so the Spellthieving Sword is meant to deal with them. The Great Eagles are mainly there to tie up his Mortis Engine for a bit, since he usually takes upgrades on it that gives casters in range some huge bonuses, in addition to serving as chaff.

[Mist]

Well first off 2 x level 4 archmages is one to many, they will spend all game fighting over magic dice.
Give him the book and 4++ save
Make the swordmasters bigger.
Reavers should have only a muso (fast cav), the standard is to easy to claim and the hero offers nothing to the unit.
Do you have the BotWD in there somewhere?
Scroll caddie would come in handy (this is a 1st or 2nd level with a dispel scroll)
You could always try a coven of light. (do a search on this site). Vampires don't like light. Death can also be a good choice against them.

[ArcaneSnow]

Your list looks pretty good, but I'm with Mist on this one. Although I've recently asked about the viability of running 2 x lvl 4, I think it's a bit too much. Before I start with my opinion I'd like to say that to me, Warhammer isn't generally a game of building counter lists, however... I accidentally build a Lore of light/folding fortress list against an unsuspecting VC army... He was pissed at me for a good week after the game before willing to talk to me again. xD

So here goes, as Mist said,
-2 level 4's is a bit too much. Try a level 4 with a level 2 support mage. I personally like Shadow and High support. However... If you're counter building.. double lore of light casters are fun
-Swordmaster group definitely needs to be bigger, they tend to be a bit squishy. BoTWD is nice in here.
- I believe reavers don't need muso, they get free reforms. I'd run 2 groups of 5, bow swapped

-Unless the 2 eagles are the only warmachine hunters you have, you can save a couple points without completely having to deck them out. Vanilla eagles work pretty well as is.
-You have a lot of anvil units in here and lacking a bit of offensive power. If the Phoenix Guards are your offensive units, I'd consider razor standard. Lvl 4 should be in here or one of the spear units as bunker.
-lastly, if you want to run high magic, I'd put them in a unit where the lore ability actually matters. Sisters usually sit back and shoot anyways, why not put the bonus ward save in a frontline unit instead?

[Mist]

Remember the muso on the reavers gives them +1 on the rally after fleeing form a charge.

[Flame]

Well, I recently played with a modified version of that list (I've misplaced it, so I can't post the actual copy of it). I did surprisingly well, save for a very, very large amount of ridiculously bad dice rolls (Four dice on Mindrazor, and I manage to get all ones, even when I rerolled one with the Book of Hoeth because that represented the last of the phase's dice). Had I rolled a bit better, and made a charge that I probably should have (It would have caused every model in a block of 30 spearmen to take a dangerous terrain test, but give them poison attacks and hit the flank of a very powerful unit of kitted out Grave Guard), I think I might have actually beat him. At that point, if I could kill the Grave Guard, the only real threat left would be his 40 strong horde of ghouls with a banshee, and the Mortis Engine, unless he's found a way to make skeletons badass and Terrorgeists turn out to be very well protected against Soul Quench for some reason.

[Ferny]

Alright, the list contains:

• 14 Swordsmasters of Hoeth run seven wide, with a champion, musician, and standard, accompanied by a level 4 Archmage taking Lore of Life
• 29 Spearmen run six wide, with a champion, musician, and standard. Includes a noble with dragon armour, Spellthieving Sword, Shield of the Merwyrm, and the Banner of Eternal Flame
• 29 Spearmen identical to the above, except the noble is the BSB, and has the Enchanted Shield and Dawnstone
• 25 Phoenix Guard run five wide with a champion, musician, and standard, wielding halberds and wearing heavy armour
• 19 Sisters of Avelorn run five wide with a champion taking the Reaver Bow, accompanied by a level 4 Archmage taking Lore of High Magic
• 7 Ellyrian Reavers run seven wide with a champion and standard
• Great Eagle with Shredding Talons and Swiftsense
• Another Great Eagle with Shredding Talons and Swiftsense

It's 2500 points, by the way. He'll likely run a Mortis Engine, hence the Banner of Eternal Flame. In addition, he usually has a number of powerful casters in most units for Invocation of Nehek, so the Spellthieving Sword is meant to deal with them. The Great Eagles are mainly there to tie up his Mortis Engine for a bit, since he usually takes upgrades on it that gives casters in range some huge bonuses, in addition to serving as chaff.

It's not a typical list you've got there - and probably not a 'power list' - but I think it is workable in a non-optimised environment. I've got some general advice rather than specifics for tailoring/completely changing your list, given that you start from such an unusual position.

1. I don't think 14 is necessarily a bad unit size for swordmasters, particularly 7 wide - it certainly maximises attacks. I personally enjoyed a spell playing with units of just 5 (but they lacked punch which I needed) or 10 (which can still go 7 wide). Our resident MSU expert (SwordMaster of Hoeth) often takes them in units of 14 for the extra punch. I've also seen a couple of stalwarts (most notably Seradain) take a bigger combat block, but in that case I think the BotWD is a must on them. He also suggested that the high AM was essential in that set up. If you're keeping them small I'd be tempted to give them the flaming banner to counter regen monsters and to storm buildings with - I think they'll make more use of it than spears.

2. Two archmages also isn't necessarily a bad idea, though you need to have a good plan on how to use them or else as has been noted you'll find them fighting for dice too much. I'd hazard a guess you haven't got this sort of plan in mind because I don't think high and life synergise very well, though I could be wrong. I've never done it myself because of the dice issue, but I considered Loremaster/Death combo to really expand the spell-range and make choosing dispels much harder...because Death has so many 'must stop' spells you could potentially spend an entire magic phase casting with the loremaster and getting them through while your opponent saves dice for the death AM. It might not be the only approach, but that's the type of 'idea' which I'd build dual lord mages around.

3. Despite movement trays being static, you don't need to define your formations before matches nor do you need to stick with them in the match. With two deep spear blocks I'd be tempted to run the PG wide to maximise attacks (like a mini horde). I'd definitely give them the razor banner to make them better on the attack.

4. Likewise you don't need to specify where your characters go - so remember you have that flexibility

5. That said, if you're taking a high AM I'd be very tempted to put her in the PG unit to boost their ward save to 3+...just remember to give her a ward as well! (Although I did design a list once with handmaiden, big unit of sisters and, to cover their weakness vs magic, a high AM which took MR3 and ironcurse icon to protect them...kinda building my list around the unit though).

6. Personally, I'm not a fan of non-BSB foot nobles unless they fill some sort of utility role. Crown of command fits nicely with the merwyrm shield for a stubborn unit (but you might not need that with deep blocks of spears), as does MR2 and a magic weapon to make the PG 2++ against spells - almost as good as BotWD. This could go on the BSB if you only took one noble. Or for the BSB in the 2 noble build you've given him almost the most defensive kit possible I think (short of the merywrm which is taken + potion of toughness), but I'd give him the potion of strength so that he has more punch. Alternatively I'd go for caledor armour to really beef up his AS (this works particularly well in a BotWD unit, though you don't have one).

7. Why did you go for 7 reavers? I sometimes go up to 6 from the min 5, but 7 seems odd - I don't see much extra utility from it given that the units main role will ultimately be to die. Also, while I have experimented with champ and standard, the first upgrade I give the unit is always musician - the +1 to rally is golden.

8. Given how few reaver units you have, I like the eagles. I don't know if the upgrades are worth it, but I'd certainly do ASF if I had the points.

9. Other than the sisters, you don't really have any shooting - is this enough? It seems a shame to waste such elite shooting on chaff killing (which without MSU core helms, archers, MSU dragon princes or RBTs and only high MMs from magic, you don't have many options for getting rid of).

Food for thought maybe, without radical list changes.