Is 2 x Level 4 casters crazy?

[ArcaneSnow]

I'm in the middle of working on a list for my first tournament and I think I'm feeling a little crazy.. that or I've been up for too long..

Ever since I started whfb (which isn't too long ago) I've been addicted to playing with magic, so every list I've built usually involved a lvl 4 archmage and lvl 2 support.
My usual setup is lvl 4 Shadow for Mindrazor and lvl 2 with High magic to provide minor support and for the ward save.
I run a archer anvil so even when I'm in trouble 30+ archers hitting with LD as Str that also have 5+ wardsaves are pretty deadly.

But since I'm thinking that my shadow+high combo is pretty situational... I kind of want to change it up.
So... I'm thinking in a 2500 list... would running 2 lvl 4 archamages with channeling staff on Shadow and Death be crazy since both lores are high casting or is the versatility worth it?
Also.. would the point sink be too much of a set back?

Also... while I'm on this topic.. is there any other lores I can combo with?

[SpellArcher]

This is an interesting one, as Wood Elf players often go for this but it seems less common in HE lists. Partly this may be because Book of Hoeth only works for one caster, whereas the old Banner of Sorcery could help both. Again maybe because HE combat lords are stronger than WE, so you get a lot of aggressive options which use a Prince as the spearhead, whether horsed or on a monster.

If doing it, I suspect you'd be best off with a defensive, shooting list, perhaps with blocks of PG and White Lions to fend the enemy off.

[Curu Olannon]

I think so. I find it hard to justify that many points invested into magic when you will often find yourself lacking flexibility. Without a reliable way to generate PD every turn, I don`t think it can be done. What I do think you can do however is take a Loremaster and an Archmage. The most popular road here is Lore of Light, including an L1 caddy as well for S6 Banishment. What 2 level 4s lack in flexibility, these 2 certainly don`t. Between them, there`s always a perfect spell for any situation.

I agree with SA that if you go down this road you need a defensive army. Archers, Lions, RBTs are keywords I feel.

[ArcaneSnow]

Yea.. You guys make a good point. The way I play is already pretty defensive since I usually run horde archers, 4 rbt, and multiple cav units to redirect. I'm not a big fan of the PG though. used to love them when I started.. but on too many occasions they have failed to hold the line for me. But loosing flexibility because of dumping so many points into another caster should be my main concern. If 1 dies.. I lose quite a bit.

So I assume that if I ever were to try and run a full on aggressive magic list, I should probably save it for a WE army?

[Curu Olannon]

The only armies capable of going aggressive with magic are in my opinion the undead (and arguably WoC, though a single L4 DP is enough for them). Double L4s for TK is pretty much mandatory and Vampires can also get away with big levels in magic while keeping a strong offense. I don`t think WE are well suited for dual-L4s either, they have so many good things to spend points on other than magic. On the other hand, if defensive magic-heavy play works for you - by all means go ahead

[SpellArcher]

WE's have tricks like the Sisters bunker and Protection Counters but I'm not convinced it's that awesome. Early days I guess.

[ArcaneSnow]

Ok.. While I'm on weird ideas, I've always been tempted to try sacrificial casters as well.

I'm talking.. 2-3 x lvl2 mages with power scrolls. Of course some luck is needed during spell gen but almost guaranteeing a big spell for 155pt doesn't seem too bad.
Viable or... am I just crazy?

[Curu Olannon]

You can only take each item once. Did you see the faq on power scroll?

[ArcaneSnow]

Right.. Nop, I should look that up now. Thanks. haha

[Boothy]

Two level 4’s should be OK, I’d be tempted to keep them reasonably cheap though. I generally think there are a few ways to use magic and half measures are not one of them:

- Option one is to spam loads of low cast modest spells, each one has an effect but no single one is required much more than the others, you probably need to cast a couple of spells into any given situation to really turn things in your favour. Things like the loremaster (lots of spammable spells) and book of hoeth (increased reliability) are good at this. This approach used to work well for me with the 7th ed lizard book using a party slaan on light……every single turn the frog would cast phas, speed, and time warp, and only one of them needed to go of to win a combat.

- Option two is to invest heavily and make every spell a nightmare for your opponent. If you go for half measures its easy to end up in a situation where you only have one spell that is going to RELLY hurt your opponent…..then you either have to risk high dice casts to try and force it through or give them easy dispels against you while you successfully cast the mediocre consolation prizes that neither of you really care about. If your going to hurt them with magic you want to be throwing something like a dwellers and a purple sun every single turn. Two level 4’s with a power scroll and a power stone will help you through the <6 dice magic phases. Teclis is a great option here, and just happens to be about the same cost as two level 4’s

- Option three is to take no magic/very limited magic. Im currently using a single level 2 high mage to blast soul quench at wood elves twice a turn (ring of fury). Take a mage, pick a signature spell you need and throw all your dice at it……if it doesn’t work or ends up in the wrong matchup its not the end of the world. To be honest I’d rather go with no mages than weak mages, but those magic missiles are really handy against the wood elves.

[SpellArcher]

The question is for the ultra-aggressive or no-magic builds, can the army cope without a scroll?

[Curu Olannon]

I have found that running without a scroll is pretty much impossible. Furthermore, not having at least 3 spells puts you in a poor position when you get strong winds. I don`t think I`ll find myself playing without at least an L2 with the Ring and dispel scroll, which is the barebones minimum of what you can get by with.

[Boothy]

Having just come of the back of a year and a half with no mages at all I firmly believe its possible to play without a scroll! Most of the time I was using daemons, but I tried the no magic approach with lizards, skaven, brets, and wood elves as well, and they can all pull it off to varying levels of success (brets, daemons, high elves, and wood elves seemed best suited to it). I played my first ten games with high elves with no magic as well but have found wood elves a problem where a few good magic missiles help a lot! And so, grudgingly, a wizard has been allowed back into my army (and I have to admit the scroll is nice to have).

If we are going to play without magic you have to have a plan to deal with enemy wizards for sure, but we have to have a plan to deal with enemy war machines as well, neither can just be left to their own devices.

I totally agree that f we are going to include wizards we want a few spells to choose from.....even with three its very possible to have a matchup/magic phase where there are no good targets. This is probably the tipping point where we should start pumping many more points into magic, or scaling back......depending on the rest of the list and overall strategy of course.

Anyway this isn’t really the thread to be discussing the pro's and con's of magic light armies, this thread wants loads of wizards!

[SpellArcher]

I feel MSU armies are better suited to playing scroll-less because the loss of any single element is likely less damaging. Daemons cope because army-wide Ward saves, ITP and Instability make them more forgiving vs magic. I too have played for long periods both with and without a scroll. I often got away with it but IMHO against good players it eventually loses games and I say that as someone whose strongest suit is defending the magic phase.

The knock-on effect is that one less Arcane slot is available. From this point of view Book/Scroll looks like a no-brainer but I'm seeing increasing numbers of lists with Book dropped for Scroll of Shielding or Sceptre of Stability. Partly this is due to lack of an AM but some players feel that in magic-heavy metas even more protection is necessary. MR for example is everywhere.

[Boothy]

The daemons were an interesting one actually. People often say that ITP and wards = magical resilience but it does vary. ITP means you cant flee (or even break from combat and escape from) magically turbo charged units. There are also a few spells that really hurt them. On the flip side if people don’t have spells that can really hurt them they can just take the damage and weather minor buffs/hex’s until help arrives.

The magic-less elves were an interesting comparison to the daemons. They have so far seemed to have more spells that worry them, but none that are as catastrophic as for the daemons.

I absolutely agree that MSU is safer to play without a scroll, for exactly the reason you mention……..its probably why most of the armies I have played with no magic end up as some sort of hybrid character light MSU thing. High elves seem to be doing this quite well what with an abundance of heavy cav, phoenix guard, banner of the world dragon, and a solid overall statline.

Something I like to think about when selecting mages is “the bloodthirster test”…….when we go putting a level 4 and a pair of level 2’s + magic items in a list that starts to exceed the cost of a star dragon……..will those wizards have the same impact. The answer can certainly be yes, but it’s something I like to keep in mind.

Do you think the abundance of magical defence and resistance comes from the abundance of busses and deathstars? Once a player commits to building such a list they have to protect that unit and so load up on the appropriate defence. This is outside my area of experience since the eastern states events basically ban such things through soft comp, and here in WA uncomped dwellers has probably ensured that no brolock busses will ever rear their ugly heads. We do get deathstars, but not usually the character based ones.

Anyway, trying to get back on topic….what spells would you need to make two level 4’s worth it besides the obvious ones (dwellers, purple sun, mindrazor etc). Its easy to build this type of magic phase with Teclis, but much harder when we can’t guarantee the perfect spell selection. What lores have a game winner + a really good backup?

[SpellArcher]

I agree that ITP, Instability, Reign of Chaos for example can lose Daemons the game but overall I feel they are more likely to win it. It's like Skaven in a way. You're accepting an extra level of randomness but it's a favourable randomness.

Certainly anyone building a Deathstar will consider a serious Ward save against spells. But generally there's a lot of Death, stuff like Banishment, Convocation etc.. Here (UK) at least magic-heavy is de rigeur. Any army needs decent defence IMHO. Events that don't offer LoS vs Dwellers will still see Deathstars, it's just that they will build to be able to split the characters up if facing Life.

As said, I feel shooting-heavy complements magic-heavy for HE's. Shadow seems to make sense because of Withering, Miasma to slow stuff down, maybe pit vs low I stuff, combat spells for when they get to you. Possibly High to go with this because it's great against elves and Shadow isn't.

[ArcaneSnow]

I don't think I'm confident enough to run into a battle without magic or low level casters. Maybe its the meta that I've been playing around in Canada, but I find that with the recent games I've played, I usually dominate the magic phase quite a bit with even just a lvl 4 with book. 1 high cast spell is usually all it takes to shift things into my favor.

So far my list is pretty shooting heavy, that was why I was wondering if 2 lvl 4s was viable since sitting back casting and sitting back shooting for the first couple turns seems to work so far. The concern was that once most units are engaged in cc the effectiveness drops. I also wouldn't really know where to hide these casters in a msu army since there really isn't a solid bunker.

[SpellArcher]

As soon as stuff's in combat Shadow (and some Death) spells will be lethal.

Some kind of bunker does seem like a good idea.

[matrim]

You can use the Everqueen with a L3 caster in a 2400 army. L3 can carry the scroll and the ring. And with the everqueen you have access to 3 lores (you can choose depending on the opposition) which is flexibility enough but you have to choose on L3 lore. I'd say don't bother with shadow as you will struggle for PD.
If you want fun go with Beast and bubble cast Savage Beast. Then watch your mate cry when the queen and the L3 finish of his pride and joy (well with the help of a BSB and Korhil )

[Baleanoon]

You can use the Everqueen with a L3 caster in a 2400 army. L3 can carry the scroll and the ring. And with the everqueen you have access to 3 lores (you can choose depending on the opposition) which is flexibility enough but you have to choose on L3 lore. I'd say don't bother with shadow as you will struggle for PD.
If you want fun go with Beast and bubble cast Savage Beast. Then watch your mate cry when the queen and the L3 finish of his pride and joy (well with the help of a BSB and Korhil )

Hmm... Everqueen and lvl 3 interesting... I would be tempted to do light with the level 3 though, and try and sneak a level 1 in as well.

Loremaster would be even more interesting...

[Jedra]

So ages back - with the old book - I trialed this extensively. My experiences are collected here.

Granted, this was the old book, but I actually think the disadvantages I experienced are even more pronounced in the current. I haven't tried it again with the new book - frankly, I'm skeptical of the value. My experiences summed up:

1) When you roll well, it's very nice
2) You can cut thing to the wire a bit more with dice rolls as you have a backup spell caster
3) It's good to choose different lores with some overlap, so that if one guy fails you have a backup spell
4) Many turns they will be a massive point sink due to lack of Power Dice
5) Most turns it's not much more reliable than 1 arch mage and a support caster

And bearing in mind, during that time I had an extra d3+1 power dice. The power dice issue would really really really hurt I think these days - probably only getting 1 turn a game you'd really see much effect from the extra caster beyond another support caster.

After above experiments, I switch to Lord with Radiant Gem of Hoeth. Like that, with the new book, I would expect Loremaster + Archmage to be a better combo as it most of the benefits (Flexibility, backup caster) but even when you roll low he has uses.

(Disclaimer: have only theory hammer experience with LM + AM as I don't play much anymore)

[SpellArcher]

I wondered about this.

If you fail a cast with one guy, presumably you've already blown your magic dice advantage (unless you roll really big for Winds) and are likely to have your phase pretty much neutralised anyway?

[Jedra]

Wasn't so much of an issue for me but then it was old book with stupid dice advantage.

It would mostly depend on a lot of details by circumstance (mostly: what your starting dice difference was, opponents wizard. how many dice you used to cast). I was frequently casting with 2 dice, so a failure didn't eat into the PD too much. Often if I failed on one wizard I'd then start chucking dice at the next spells.

But yeah.... Power Dice was (unsurprisingly) always the issue, and even WITH stupid dice I had many turns where it felt like a point sink. I think this would REALLY be a problem, and peronally would reocmmend the LM + AM combo instead as you get a lot of the flexibility but it doesn't matter if your LM isn't casting so much.