What is the current meta and how do you play it?

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SpellArcher
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#61 Post by SpellArcher »

IIRC Curu, the point of the bus mage was firstly to mitigate a heavy magic assault on the bus early game and secondly to improve the Ironcurse Icon save vs cannon sniping late game. Not so much to supercharge the combat power. In a way it's like the point we were discussing re buffing the bus with Shadow. Just how strong does it need to be? If it is necessary to be able to put it into almost anything and win, then Life all the way I guess. I imagine Seredain would say that he's aiming to use his support more. Life is a powerful buffing Lore but it doesn't have spells like Unforging and Walk that can change the dynamics of impending combats before they happen.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#62 Post by Curu Olannon »

In a sense, you`re saying that Seredain is keeping the mage because he chose Archers over more Helms ;) In a nutshell, he could "convert" the Mage to a Noble with fighty equipment, give the BSB the BOTWD and have more Helms in the unit instead of Archers. That would solve all the problems the mage is trying to address, would it not? Walk Between Worlds is actually overrated: when you are done with the movement phase your units are positioned so that they are in perfect positions relative to eachother. Thus, even though walk gives you a lot of flexibility on paper, using it in action is a lot harder. Our big birds can capitalize on this easier since a single-model, hard-hitting flyer can easily change position without necessarily disrupting a carefully-led plan. Of course, it`s not always this easy and WBW can indeed be a game-breaker, but far too often I find this to be the case.

Oh and by the way this is turning into a really interesting discussion. A big thanks to everyone who`s contributing :)
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#63 Post by SpellArcher »

In a way Curu, I feel Seredain's Combined Arms instincts are leading him to keep the bus to it's smallest possible size while still being able to do it's job. In essence he's now conceded that 12 FC plus the three characters is necessary. Possibly he needs to revise this upwards. Hopefully a look at the games he played at MKGT will enlighten us.

I agree on the Frostheart. It's interesting that Seredain (and others such as Tethlis) consider that taking a single monster like this weakens your list because it can be too easily one-shotted. I disagree, from a Combined Arms standpoint. The monster gives you more options, against more enemies. This is worth the risk. This even applies to an army like Wood Elves, as pointed out here by Baleanoon. A Treeman isn't a Phoenix but he's another tool in the box and similarly, losing him isn't fatal. Everything in the game has a hard counter of some sort.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#64 Post by Curu Olannon »

I used to agree with Tethlis, but the Frostheart Phoenix truly is a powerhouse in its own right. I have played multiple mirror matchups this year and having faced a Frostheart I can appreciate its potential in a way I could not before. Furthermore, people like to say that RBTs are expendable, but I find that once they start dropping the game changes very, very quickly. Every shot at a Phoenix is a shot less at your bus or your RBTs and with High Magic you stand a good chance of keeping it alive as well.

The combined arms nature Seredain struggles to uphold is admirable, but I believe it`s only a matter of time before he`ll concede completely. Just look at where he started and where he is now: the list development is clearly an indicator of how things change once you start meeting tough opponents: the soft elements simply don`t carry their weight and thus need to be shaved. I do believe Archers can work, but not in an army with a Silver Helm bus. Sure they have some amazing matchups, but once the field hardens these are few and far between. WoC, DoC and Empire just pick up points from Archers, they do absolutely nothing here and that`s not a position you`d want a unit to be in. By comparison, a unit of Reavers always has its uses regardless of what you face.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#65 Post by Casazzo »

the soft elements simply don`t carry their weight and thus need to be shaved.
God shave the Everqueen!

Seriously:
I had a really hard time putting my archers, spears and seaguards to rest, because they were the miniatures i painted first. But i realized, that i had to put too much effort (magic- and pointwise) in trying to make them work instead of just taking the stronger elements in form of Reavers and SHs.

Last game i played a complete infantryfree setup (for the first time tbh) and me and my enemy (we play in a group without great tactical finesse usually) were both very suprised, of how much the game changes with only cav and flyers.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#66 Post by Cyrus »

Curu Olannon wrote:In a sense, you`re saying that Seredain is keeping the mage because he chose Archers over more Helms ;) In a nutshell, he could "convert" the Mage to a Noble with fighty equipment, give the BSB the BOTWD and have more Helms in the unit instead of Archers. That would solve all the problems the mage is trying to address, would it not? Walk Between Worlds is actually overrated: when you are done with the movement phase your units are positioned so that they are in perfect positions relative to eachother. Thus, even though walk gives you a lot of flexibility on paper, using it in action is a lot harder. Our big birds can capitalize on this easier since a single-model, hard-hitting flyer can easily change position without necessarily disrupting a carefully-led plan. Of course, it`s not always this easy and WBW can indeed be a game-breaker, but far too often I find this to be the case.
Completely agree about Seredain's list. Another thing to notice about it, at least the last time i checked it, is that his Archmage is extremely vulnerable in the front rank of his elite infantry unit. He doesn't seem to lose the mage in HTH very often, but my sense is that having the mage there often leads him to hold the infantry back from combats where they would be useful.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#67 Post by SpellArcher »

That's not the impression I get and the fact that Ptolemy trialled the very similar Life AM in Swordmasters and was happy with it (Ptolemy is a good player) makes me think it's a goer. Granted, I wouldn't put it into Witch Elves. That's the advantage of the PG, that they can function without the AM's protection if necessary. I don't think Swords can, so much. But we'll have to query it with Seredain when he pops up again.

Under the old book I used to find that when my games went south I lost big time. Seredain often used to hold these to an 8-12 or 6-14. He put this down to the steadiness of the elite infantry. With GW re-rolls and psych protection they could be formidable, even in smaller units. So you could have these, a small bus, RBT, DP's etc and in the meta of the time, it worked.

Now I agree he is moving towards the mainstream, with 4 RBT, the bigger bus etc.. It is interesting to note that he actually started the new book with a 15-strong bus and six levels of High Magic and has now gone back to these. The question is, will the archers go too and be replaced by the small helms (or by Reavers) that he had in that first list?

In my last game I lost my cavalry early but found that a combination of a blocking Treeman on one flank and shooting/magic on the other managed to save the game. In the middle was a bunkered BSB, critical for re-rolling not only break tests but swift reforms and psych tests too. That's how combined arms should work IMHO, any of the elements should be capable of functioning well together and adapting to game swings.

Whether Seredain, with his Archers and DP's still thinks this is how his list should work may become clear when we see those MKGT games. He has faced good players for a long time. But the metagame (and the HE army book) has moved on, so the army has to change.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#68 Post by Curu Olannon »

Losing "true asf" was a huge blow. With it, I believe WL would still by far be the dominant unit of choice for us.

With the ETC over we see some new trends I would believe. Will be interesting to follow :) With Furion getting over 100 points (must be an all-time high for HE I believe?), I expect the Flamespyre-mounted Anointeds to start popping up all over the place.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#69 Post by Baleanoon »

If you are taking an Life Archmage on foot, how is a Loremaster not better in almost every tactical situation? Wildform, Ice Shard, and Spirit leech are just great spells for damage and effect, and you still have earth blood for your own unit. Personally I've just found lore of life similar to High Magic as in easy to read and direct.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#70 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:I agree on the Frostheart. It's interesting that Seredain (and others such as Tethlis) consider that taking a single monster like this weakens your list because it can be too easily one-shotted. I disagree, from a Combined Arms standpoint. The monster gives you more options, against more enemies. This is worth the risk.
Isn't this also meta-dependent though? While losing a single rare monster shouldn't lose you the game in almost all situations, if the monster never lives past turn 1 or 2 then it's a bit a waste of points to bring him. After all, why start down 200points? And some meta's are undoubtedly better suited at taking down a monster in one or 2 turns then others.

Of course, it prevents shooting / magic at other units. But in many cases I doubt that is the best use of rare points.
Curu Olannon wrote:Furthermore, people like to say that RBTs are expendable, but I find that once they start dropping the game changes very, very quickly.
Is that because the RBT disappear from the table or because once an opponent has time to start taking out RBT you're behind already? Both are possible and depend on the list and their placement etc. For instance, if taking out the RBT only takes a single cavalry unit running down the flank and overrunning from one into the next and finishing the job in 2 turns then that probably wasn't the best of deals. If it means that a significantly larger portion of points has to be used for multiple turns to take them out and it leaves those points way out of position, then it could have been a good sacrifice.

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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#71 Post by SpellArcher »

The point of the Life Archmage on foot is redundancy. He will very likely roll Flesh to Stone in addition to Earthblood and likely Regrowth too. Plus he has 3 wounds so Lifebloom is significant. He has to be able to protect the unit. The problem I have found with relying on offensive spells to draw dice and sneaking Earthblood through is when a monster lands next to the unit and breathes fire on it. Or other Flaming attacks. The Life AM should have a back-up caster to give the phase options.

At the tournament I just played I faced one cannon army out of 5 (screened the Treeman with Treekin and shot the cannon off) there were 21/72 in total. My Treeman never died at range. There were 22 elves. Yes if 3 or 4 opponents had cannon that changes things. I wouldn't take a monster in a shooting list but offensively it's worth it IMHO, especially with flight and the Ward.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#72 Post by Curu Olannon »

RBTs tend to disappear quickly against Elves, Empire, Lizardmen and Dwarfs. In the latter case it doesn`t necessarily matter too much, but in the others I feel the loss a lot as I suddenly have no ranged threats any longer. They go down because those armies are good at bringing them down, not because things are turning bad.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#73 Post by Baleanoon »

On the Frostheart it is going to depend on your local meta's terrain. My local events all generally have 1 building on the board, which means in a bad match up I could simply hide the big bird until its safe or the whole game. In which case it is a safe place to chuck 240 points, I very rarely need to use all my points every game.

The thing with RBTs is as soon as you get down to 2, short of light council the army doesn't have the ranged punch to force people to move with any urgency. For instance against 2 skullcannon daemons, if they kill 2 bolt throwers turn 1, you are going to be hard pressed to get any sense of urgency out of the DoC player. They can depending on the first turn weather the remainder of your shooting, and just go for late game charges limiting the amount of combat you see. That being said I see surprisingly few DoC armies with furies so who knows as to their true redirecting/chaff abilities.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#74 Post by Sinsigel »

rdghuizing wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:I agree on the Frostheart. It's interesting that Seredain (and others such as Tethlis) consider that taking a single monster like this weakens your list because it can be too easily one-shotted. I disagree, from a Combined Arms standpoint. The monster gives you more options, against more enemies. This is worth the risk.
Isn't this also meta-dependent though? While losing a single rare monster shouldn't lose you the game in almost all situations, if the monster never lives past turn 1 or 2 then it's a bit a waste of points to bring him. After all, why start down 200points? And some meta's are undoubtedly better suited at taking down a monster in one or 2 turns then others.

Of course, it prevents shooting / magic at other units. But in many cases I doubt that is the best use of rare points.
My thoughts exactly. I don't know how players around other countries are doing, but here in south korea 'comp' packs of any kind are virtually unknown.
People simply play as the rulebooks suggest. That means no 20-0(or whatever it is called) system, no Simple Line of Sight, slot restriction, etc.
Furthermore, I often play against armies with plenty of cannons. That includes empire, OK, dwarfs and DoC.
Most empire players bring minimum 3 cannon even in 2,000pts : 2 great cannon and one steam tank.
Other armies with access to cannons also tend to bring maximum cannons at possible.
4 ironblasters in 3,000pts OK list is a very common sight here.

Combine the sheer amount of cannons and simple line of sight, and we see almost no ridden monsters in the game.
Only Lizardmen can at least attempt to bring monsters by spamming them. 3 stegadons and a couple of bastiladons for example.
And this is the reason why I never, EVER bring lone of even a pair of frostheart phoenixes regardless of points level.
Unless I go all-out flyer list with Star Dragon Prince, that is.
I've had my pair of frostheart phoenixes shot down in first turn so many times that I literally shelved them for about a year.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#75 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Sinsigel - sounds to me like you need to cheese up :)
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#76 Post by Baleanoon »

At 3000 points you can fit like 5 or 6 frosthearts and a bus of 18 silverhelms with BotWD maybe you should try that.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#77 Post by SpellArcher »

We used to see more cannon but it's the elf meta that's changing that, as we play TloS etc..

Hence why my last tournament was chock a block with monsters.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#78 Post by Sinsigel »

I'm not sure HE are suited for 'cheese' lists(double steam tanks, 4 ironblasters, etc).
Monster mash lists are doomed when such cheese lists get the first turn, and even going first doesn't guarantee much.
Taking too many frostheart phoenixes mean less points spent on other useful support units.(bolt throwers, for example)
Whatever 'cheese' list HE field, I always feel they face polarized matchup even more so than the other powerhouse armies.

For example, is a 3,000pts list with Star Dragon Prince, Caradryan on Frostheart Phoenix, BotWD noble(to join silver helms),
minimum core and 3 phoenixes truly full of cheese? Now, I don't have much guts and money to try out such a cheese list so this is pure conjecture.
Against some armies without cannons, they surely do pack serious punch.
Againt those with 3~4 cannons minimum, I think even this flyer list will suffer heavily. More so if you go second.
Lv4 wizards with Death, Shadow, Metal are other threats.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#79 Post by Curu Olannon »

So, cannon on average (unruned): 10 from the back on a 4" long model means anything bouncing 6+ inches will hit. The only misses then are misfire - anything, 2 - misfire, 2 - 2, 4 - misfire. That`s 9/36, meaning 25/36 chance for a hit. 25/36 * 0.84 to wound * 3.5 wounds on average = 2.0 wounds per shot, on average. This means that 3 cannons on average will deal 6 wounds to a Star Dragon, or 4 wounds to a Frostheart Phoenix (factoring in the Ward save). In other words, if you send as many Frosthearts as you can (6 if my math is right: Anointed + Caradryan + 4 rares) 3 cannons will likely not be enough to make a dent on their own. Unless you face some serious Banishment action as well (which you can diminish the effects of with a scroll), I`d say this is at least worth trying out. See if you can`t get any friends to proxy against, I can understand if you don`t want to have to buy all these birds first :D

Other ways of cheesing I feel inevitably boils down to deathstars.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#80 Post by Toledo Inquisition »

Sinsigel wrote:I'm not sure HE are suited for 'cheese' lists(double steam tanks, 4 ironblasters, etc).
Monster mash lists are doomed when such cheese lists get the first turn, and even going first doesn't guarantee much.
Taking too many frostheart phoenixes mean less points spent on other useful support units.(bolt throwers, for example)
Whatever 'cheese' list HE field, I always feel they face polarized matchup even more so than the other powerhouse armies.

For example, is a 3,000pts list with Star Dragon Prince, Caradryan on Frostheart Phoenix, BotWD noble(to join silver helms),
minimum core and 3 phoenixes truly full of cheese? Now, I don't have much guts and money to try out such a cheese list so this is pure conjecture.
Against some armies without cannons, they surely do pack serious punch.
Againt those with 3~4 cannons minimum, I think even this flyer list will suffer heavily. More so if you go second.
Lv4 wizards with Death, Shadow, Metal are other threats.

I've had very good luck with this list in three major uncomped, straight out of the book tournaments (11 wins, 2 losses): Stardragon/Princess, Caradryan/Ashtari, 2 Frosties, Mounted BSB, 18 White Lions with BOTWD, 2-10 Silver Helm units, 2 Eagles, 5 Reavers, L2 with Scroll in a unit of archers (I've been using metal lately). I've had a lot of fun with it, and have faced the worst of the worst type armies with it. I think if you tried it you'd like it. :D Take a look at some of my older posts and battle reports.

I will give you one proviso - if you like to do something in all phases of the game, you'll be disappointed. One unit of archers and one L2 mage means you're not doing much in two phases of the game. But I'm more of a movement and combat type, and don't like shooting and magic as much, so it works well for me. In my two tournament losses, both were close games, once to Empire (2 steam tanks, 2 cannons but it was a blasted L1 Metal Mage that did me in) and Orcs and Goblins.

I think I had two blowout losses with it in practice games since the new book came out. So probably 13 tournament games, and 15 or so practice games. If I had to guess, the practice games were 12-3 with this list, with one small loss and the two aforementioned bad losses. As I say, bring the mean! I just love this list plays - but if you fear an occassional ugly turn 2 loss, maybe you'd stay away. But if you're like me and suck yourself into the void frequently, I've lost a lot more games to bad magic than with a list like this.

Note: These were all 3000 point, non-grand army lists. If grand army, I'd be dropping Caradryan/Ashtari and picking up a third standard Frostie. I haven't played enough grand armies to know how that would affect what other people would bring.
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#81 Post by Curu Olannon »

Rolling the dreaded 2-4 on miscasts used to be a signature move of mine with our old book (seriously, go check my old blog ^^) so I feel where you`re coming from. I guess what I`m asking here then is do you really consider Caradryan to be worth it relative to including another mage (thus actually giving you a significant magic phase) and 1-2 more nobles? Have you even tried it? 3k games is something I`m not familiar with, so kinda hard to tell how they play. Also, how is your meta? Considering you can make that many monsters work so well under TLoS, I would expect WM heavy armies to be less popular?
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Re: What is the current meta and how do you play it?

#82 Post by Toledo Inquisition »

Curu Olannon wrote:Rolling the dreaded 2-4 on miscasts used to be a signature move of mine with our old book (seriously, go check my old blog ^^) so I feel where you`re coming from. I guess what I`m asking here then is do you really consider Caradryan to be worth it relative to including another mage (thus actually giving you a significant magic phase) and 1-2 more nobles? Have you even tried it? 3k games is something I`m not familiar with, so kinda hard to tell how they play. Also, how is your meta? Considering you can make that many monsters work so well under TLoS, I would expect WM heavy armies to be less popular?
Sadly I find usually that Caradryan is not worth the extra 170 points (Ashtari is 250). But the overkill factor is worth it, and Caradryan is good for a challenge if he makes it. I can't over state this fact - the third Frostie is hugely important (to me), there are so many threats. So I'm willing to suck it up and pay the extra for Caradryan.

At Midwest Rampage, I beat the guy who won Buckeye Battles (100 players) with this list, and he told me that I had the one list he feared (although he was playing Dark Elves, so no cannons). He would have also won Midwest Rampage if he hadn't lost to me. I was 4-1 with the OnG loss, and had a few less objectives, so I can't say that I'm a major tournament winner either, so don't think that I'm saying that I'm great. But this list works...for me, if nothing else.


Let me dig up some notes and army lists (current books unless noted) - not in any order:

1 Old Dwarfs - four warmachines (two cannons), three big blocks, anti magic, Thorek

2 Woodies - mix of units, some shooty, some fighty, some evasive

3 Brets - Excellent list, close to what I play, two Lords, wasn't sure who had HKB

4 OnG - basically all Goblins, trolls, 8 or 9 warmachines, chariots, fanatics, manglers, chariots, 6 solo mounted goblin heroes I think (loss)

5 Skaven - 2 Warp lightning cannons, helpit, 2 doomwheels (Can they really have all that in rare? My notes say so - if not lose a cannon from what I've listed), Bell, Furnace, few slaves, the poison scout guys

6 Demons - pure Khorne (two cannons), with Greater Demon and the claw monster

7 Demons - Pure Nurgle, no warmachines but 6 Beasts, 6 Beasts, Great Unclean One, Soulgrinder, 4 Drones, 2-30 Plaguebearer Units, Epidemius, BSB.

8 Lizardmen - Slaan, Tetto, mounted heroes, poison skinks all over the place, salamanders, unit of Saurus and one of Cold Ones, temple guard

9 Empire - 50 Halberds, 2 Steam Tanks, 2 Cannons, 2 units of Demis, the appropriate characters (loss due to L1 metal mage, killed 1000 points)

10 Ogres - cannons, ASL monster, maneaters, mournfangs, unit of shooters, standard stuff except for ASL monster (previous major tournament winner with same list - Screw City or Midwest Rampage)

11 Demons - mixed -L4 greater Tzeentch demon, 2 pink casting units, 3 units of Nurgle Beasts, plaguebearers, two cannons

12 Dark Elves: 4 Bolt Throwers, L4 Metal, 30 Witches, Cauldron, 25 Executioners, 10 Sisters, 2 Fast Cav. (Buckeye Battle winner)

13 Warriors - L4 Slaanesh Demon Prince (Killed by Stardragon), chariots, small unit knights, helcannon, block warriors, block Chosen


Other than the Khorne Demon and Dwarf, all had L4's at least for magic. Most had more.


Again, there are plenty of good generals out there, and I'm not trying to sound like an excellent general. I'm good with Brets and High Elves, not so good with Empire in tournaments. But this list scares a lot of people.

For the magic question, I've been running the L2 with the White Lions and BOTWD more frequently than archers for the miscast protection, but at Midwest Rampage, I was still sucked into the void at least twice, I think three times. :mrgreen:

I tried running two level twos in practice games, but my winning percentage went way down. I wanted at least one moderate sized infantry unit that could do something (18-20 White Lions), and I'm at minimum core, so the only way I could do it was to dump Caradryan/Ashtari. So I took a second L2 on horse (I think Shadow or Heavens at times), and something else - knowing me, probably 20ish Swordmasters or a Tiranoc and Lion Chariot. As I said, the outcome wasn't great. I wasn't casting enough other spells to matter - I'm usually in combat in turn 2 and the opponent would have a dispel scroll saved up. My opponents frequently save scrolls for T2-T4 for when it matters to them. However, I often blow mine in Turn one to stop evil spells directed at the Stardragon. [-X

Other generals who I highly respect tell me to take the second L2, drop an eagle and Caradryan, and take three bolt throwers. I'm resistant to this for two reasons: bolt throwers are another unit that I've had back luck with and I love eagles relative to fast cavalry. The flight ability has come in so handy to block fights I don't want to be in.

It sounds weird, but my dice seem to be much hotter when I'm in combat than when I'm casting or shooting. For example, I probably roll 25% "1's" when rolling to wound with my Empire cannons. Or perhaps it is that I can overwhelming dictate what combats I'm in and that influences what is going to happen. Or probably a combination of both factors.

Sorry for the scattered nature of the e-mail, as I was typing away as the thoughts popped into my head. As to the meta, I don't see any dominant trends. It sounds weird, but I see a little bit of everything in the tournaments I play in, which makes it fun to attend and not know what you're going to see. Only for sure trend - if an army has cannons, I expect to see them.

Lastly, I'm probably known as the crazy guy with an unorthodox list. { For Screw City this year, I'm trying to see if I can squeeze three dragons into my...Empire army. :shock: Don't tell anyone. } Literally at my last tournament, my three first opponents asked where my bolt throwers were. I said that I didn't have any, and they said "Okay..."

To be honest, I think this High Elf list only works because they are flying monsters, with the ability to chose combats and have a huge range. I don't see a lot of ground pounding monster lists out there other than Skaven, and their monsters are cheap.
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