Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

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IgnobleElf
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Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#1 Post by IgnobleElf »

Hi all!

Glad to see we're back up and running. I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on the Anointed on a Flamespyre Phoenix, because I'm working in painting one up (mostly for fluff reasons and because I have the model). I'm thinking he's a fairly poor choice. He's expensive (don't have the book with me, but it would have to be over 500 points with magic items). He doesn't excel in any particular area - the Flamespyre is a decent (if a bit overpriced) harassment unit, and the anointed makes him very expensive for this role. He could pack a decent punch if properly kitted, I suppose, but still would pale in comparison to other similarly priced lord level characters on monster mounts. Not to mention, you almost certainly couldn't bring a lord- level caster, so we would be at a disadvantage from the start in one of our most important phases.

I could potentially see him used as a somewhat nontraditional form of points-denial, since if the Phoenix dies, the model has a better chance of being reborn than removed from play. As an opponent, I could see the frustration of trying to capture a ~ 520 point model, only to see him come back. Of course, there's also the issue of a dead Phoenix also taking the anointed with him.

So I find him very "situational", and that might be putting it kindly. Any other thoughts?
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#2 Post by Mist »

I think you have nailed it, I cannot see him being used in competitive list at tournaments.
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#3 Post by Vinke »

I have been playing with a cav list that have annointed on a Moltress, I kited him with Dragon helm and golden crown comes in at a nice 450 so far he never gave the opponent points.

the pros:
*Wake of fire, finding a good position (like putting yourself in the rear of a unit with another unit infront of the unit) is not a waste of turn as it would be with for example a dragon, you can still roast a unit.
*Fireborn the entire modell is fireborn so against flaming banner, flaming cannons, Iron Drakes, pretty much all spells from metall and fire.
Reborn can be a pain for your opponent as you are allowed to be reborn I believe its 6inches (no book on me atm) away from where you died so I had occasions where he got killed enemy reformed I ressed on his end turn and could charge him in the rear on my turn.
*Riding on a Monster grants you a 18LD bubble

the cons:
*In combat its gotta be said he is NOT a 450points combat character so dont treat him as such, he can deal alot of damage againsst infantry due to TS but he is not a prince on a dragon in cc, consider him combat wise as a consistant hard chariot and dont try to go toe to toe with a deathstar or a Daemon prince instead take out smaller units by yourself or support or just roast them with wake.
* No lord lvl caster
* have a very hard time vs heavily armored opponents.


Overall its one of my favourite modells to use he is very flexibile and has awesome mobility combined with decent cc power that can come back to life.
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#4 Post by Axiem »

There are several places this is being discussed. If you haven't read the 2014 ETC list thread, I would suggest taking a look - Furion is running an Anointed on Flamespyre this year, and has given some thoughts regarding it. Might be a good place to start. http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66909

I'll try not to repeat what's been said there, and instead focus specifically on the points you've brought up. I will however copy Furion's build here for reference:

Anointed, on Flamespyre Phoenix, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, 530
I'm thinking he's a fairly poor choice. He's expensive (don't have the book with me, but it would have to be over 500 points with magic items). He doesn't excel in any particular area - the Flamespyre is a decent (if a bit overpriced) harassment unit, and the anointed makes him very expensive for this role. He could pack a decent punch if properly kitted, I suppose, but still would pale in comparison to other similarly priced lord level characters on monster mounts.
You're looking at this the wrong way - he's not an expensive Cav-Prince, he's a discount Dragon-Prince. That makes him cheap, not expensive, and while he doesn't hit as hard as a fully kitted Star Dragon, he does pack a punch if kitted correctly. Unlike the Star Dragon, the Anointed is also much harder to kill, which is the area he 'excels' in: point denial. With a built in 4+ Ward, MR2, some defensive kit, and the ability to come back to life, it's safe to say he's one of, if not the, hardest character to get points off of. He also directly counters a lot of the ways people deal with monsters (up to half the cannons will be flaming, Spells (Banishment, Purple Sun particularly) hurt Dragons more than Phoenixes, etc.) which means the Anointed is 'soaking' a lot more damage, buying time for the rest of the list.

Notably, there is disagreement about whether a Flamespyre or Frostheart servers as a better mount. I will say, personally, I'm favoring the Flamespyre more although the choice of which to run is likely going to be dependent on the environment you play in. The difference in power level between them though is, IMO, very small given the current world-wide meta.
Not to mention, you almost certainly couldn't bring a lord- level caster, so we would be at a disadvantage from the start in one of our most important phases.
This goes without saying if you're considering a monster-lord, regardless of which you're taking. Level two's offer fine support, especially High Magic, and if you're playing the magic phase correctly you will still be getting mileage out of them. Yes, 2x Level twos does not make a level four, but every list does not need a level four to be competitive. It's just different.

As an anecdote to end on, I've been playing with the Flamespyre for the last few weeks, after seeing it show up in the ETC Lists this year and can comfortably say it is a viable choice, although not as intuitively easy to use as a Star Dragon. I've used the above setup in 2.4k-3k games and have been pleased with his performance. If you're interested, I'll be posting a few battle reports on my blog in the next few days (once I'm sure the server is stable) so keep a lookout for those.

Hope it helps!

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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

Loving this.

Original thinking FTW!
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#6 Post by Ether Dude »

I think Furion is taking one to the ETC, so they're not awful.

Otherwise, I actually think they're pretty good. The anointed comes with really solid defensive kit with MR 2 and a 4++ which means he can pick up an enchanted shield/dawnstone, the stubborn crown, ToTS, and/or the s7 giant blade. The bird isn't all that, but once you kill it, there's a 33% chance each turn that you're not going to give up points for it. That's really good, and add in that he flies, you have a heavy hitter (not star dragon heavy ofc) who is really hard to get points from. Add to that the utility of the bird and you have a pretty solid character.
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#7 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi ED,

I think you meant: Flamespyre is not awful (maybe even good!) hence people start using it :)
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#8 Post by IgnobleElf »

Thanks Axiem and everyone else for these great responses. I'm glad to see that the Anointed/Flamespyre has some tactical merit (in addition to being a great model and fluff choice). As an opponent, I could see the 'Phoenix reborn' rule being very difficult to deal with ... Just the threat of him coming back to life would definitely alter your strategy.

Would the rider benefit from the 'fireborn' rule? (2+ ward vs flaming attacks)

Thanks again
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#9 Post by sandstorm »

No the rider doesn't. but can easily get either dragonhelm or dragonbane gem from 100 points of magic items.
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#10 Post by Prince of Spires »

I find it interesting to see how the opinion on the flamespire has completely changed in just a few short weeks from never take to definitely a viable choice.
Ether Dude wrote:The bird isn't all that, but once you kill it, there's a 33% chance each turn that you're not going to give up points for it. That's really good, and add in that he flies, you have a heavy hitter (not star dragon heavy ofc) who is really hard to get points from. Add to that the utility of the bird and you have a pretty solid character.
On the other hand, there is also a 66% chance each turn that he doesn't come back. Which means that there is a 66% chance your general is of the table for a turn. And while it's always nice not to give up points, if he hasn't come back at the end of the game he's still dead. And there's even a 16%-ish chance of your general simply disappearing into the warp. So it's not just all positive. It can literally be a 1 in 3 chance roll at the end of the game of losing 600-ish points or not.

Also, flaming S4 attacks aren't very amazing, though nice if you can get them in the right place. But even that has a downside when he is blasted of the table while in the middle of your line. For instance T1 by a cannon.

I can definitely see him working in an environment like the ETC where not giving away points is a big deal. Sometimes bigger then actually getting them. But in a non-team setting it can be a bit trickier.

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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#11 Post by SpellArcher »

Simple Line of Sight is important for mitigating the cannon issue Rod.

Though I believe ETC comps Daemons to a single Skillcannon for example. Uncomped, this is the monster you want in that match-up.
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#12 Post by Prince of Spires »

Comp definitely matters. Both for how easy it is to kill a ridden monster and how important preserving point vs scoring points is.

The remark about him dying in the middle of your line was more intended to show that you don't always have a choice in where he dies and how "beneficial" it is to you. A 5W monster with a 4+ ward (if lucky with the winds) shouldn't die too fast in many situations. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. So that is something to keep in mind with him.

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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#13 Post by Baleanoon »

rdghuizing wrote:I find it interesting to see how the opinion on the flamespire has completely changed in just a few short weeks from never take to definitely a viable choice.
Ether Dude wrote:The bird isn't all that, but once you kill it, there's a 33% chance each turn that you're not going to give up points for it. That's really good, and add in that he flies, you have a heavy hitter (not star dragon heavy ofc) who is really hard to get points from. Add to that the utility of the bird and you have a pretty solid character.
On the other hand, there is also a 66% chance each turn that he doesn't come back. Which means that there is a 66% chance your general is of the table for a turn. And while it's always nice not to give up points, if he hasn't come back at the end of the game he's still dead. And there's even a 16%-ish chance of your general simply disappearing into the warp. So it's not just all positive. It can literally be a 1 in 3 chance roll at the end of the game of losing 600-ish points or not.

Also, flaming S4 attacks aren't very amazing, though nice if you can get them in the right place. But even that has a downside when he is blasted of the table while in the middle of your line. For instance T1 by a cannon.

I can definitely see him working in an environment like the ETC where not giving away points is a big deal. Sometimes bigger then actually getting them. But in a non-team setting it can be a bit trickier.

Rod
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#14 Post by Curu Olannon »

rdghuizing wrote:I find it interesting to see how the opinion on the flamespire has completely changed in just a few short weeks from never take to definitely a viable choice.

Rod
+1. I reserve judgement until it`s seen some action. If anything, I think it`s better in a team setting than in a solo setting because of how hard it can be getting points from it in a lot of situations, whereas in a solo setting I believe you`ll miss more offense. 3 S5 attacks is really bad.
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#15 Post by IgnobleElf »

Curu Olannon wrote: 3 S5 attacks is really bad.
Yeah, it is isnt it? One would hope such an expensive beast would fight better than a savage orc big 'un!
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#16 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Maybe its role is not to kill entire units all by itself then? :)
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#17 Post by Ferny »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Maybe its role is not to kill entire units all by itself then? :)
There's a lot of points sunk into it if it's just a support unit though...I'm still old school but we'll see what Furion can do - he did after all surprise us with the bowline in 7th!
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#18 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Support? My dear Ferny, you can do better than that! [-X :lol:

Also, remember that Furion plays at ETC. Whatever works for him in that environment is not exactly the same for other games. So if he succeeds or not (and you also should be asking what his role in a team is to measure that) is not determining if Flamespyre is a good addition to the army or not.
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#19 Post by pk-ng »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Maybe its role is not to kill entire units all by itself then? :)
Nah roll is to piss fire on blocks of infantry :)
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#20 Post by Prince of Spires »

Is the wake of fire rule more then a gimmick though? It somehow doesn't seem to do enough damage to worry most armies. Only real horde armies (skaven or goblin pretty much), conga-lines or regenerating stuff has something to worry about I think.

D6 + D3 per rank S4 hits isn't all that much on average. You need 4 ranks for about 10 hits (3.5 from the D6 and then 3*2 from the D3). Which gives something like 6 wounds, 5 after armour. Killing 5 clanrats per turn isn't all that amazing for a 200pts+ monster. And that's probably a best case scenario.

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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#21 Post by Curu Olannon »

The beauty of wake of fire is how it can be used vs skirmishers and fast cav that will suddenly think twice about moving in closer. Since it`s not a breath weapon, you`re not limited to using it once. In fact, with WBW you can use it twice every turn. In the ETC at least, I believe this is of greater value than what it can do to blocks: Skaven have the Stormbanner and Howling Warpgale so I consider this a pretty disastrous matchup for the Flamespyre in the first place, whereas there are 0 Beastmen lists, which kind of leaves OnG as the only army with serious blocks - and they usually sport a ton of war machines to boot, not something this type of list enjoys playing against.
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#22 Post by Prince of Spires »

But if you want D6 S4 flaming hits, isn't the ring of fury or ruby ring a much cheaper alternative? Yes, it's dependent on winds of magic and it can be dispelled. So it is a bit more limiting. But it's also 200 points cheaper for twice the number of hits for the ring of fury, at actually a bigger range. Yes, you can fly 20'', but you need to land at least 1'' beyond the target unit and a flamespire base is 2''? 3? And a lot longer range for the ruby ring.

You can do an awful lot of fun things with 200 points.

The wake of fire is a nice addition. But if the main goal of a flying monster is to clear out skirmishers and fast cav, then it's not worth the points. Especially since most skirmishers and fast cav units exist only to die while keeping stuff occupied anyway.

As for the annointed not being your general. Yes, that is technically possible. But at common points levels (2400-2500), doing so places serious limitations on the list. After all, you will want a bsb in the list. And at least a mage (lvl2), preferably 2. Adding a second noble to that list does make it character heavy. It's possible, but also going through a lot of trouble to cover the shortcomings of a monster. Of course, if you are bringing a second noble anyway, then I'm all for it.

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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#23 Post by Curu Olannon »

The ring is just an entirely different ballgame, because with such a lord setup (or even a Dragon, for that matter) you want as much magic as possible to support him with. The most common setup is 2x L2 high magic mages, which will easily spend however many PD you can get. Furthermore, Wake of Fire does scale somewhat to semi-big units (not to mention that Skirmishers arrayed in multiple ranks suffer more hits) and is good against stuff wanting to rank up for steadfast or whatever, especially together with WBW. That said, I agree that it`s not alone worth the huge investment (I think the Flamespyre Phoenix is terrible overcosted), I think the main point about taking it is the Phoenix Reborn potential, but even taking all of these together I`m sceptical as to whether it`s worth it or not, compared to the Star Dragon which is the most obvious choice for a 500+ point monster-lord.
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#24 Post by Prince of Spires »

I definitely agree that if you are bringing a 500+ monster-lord list then the list is all about the monster + lord. The support elements and combat elements are there to support and work with the lord.

A consequence of this in my mind is that I'm skeptical whether wake of fire is really worth it. If it is purely that ability you are using then you are cheaper off just dropping the monster lord and bringing an extra lvl 1/2 with one of the rings.

The main thing the flamespire has going for it is survivability. A build in ward for both the rider and monster goes a long way to keeping stuff alive. More so when you combine it with the phoenix reborn rule. So from that perspective I can see him working in an ETC setting where your main goal is not dying.

But in a setting where the monster lord is your main killer, then I fear he may be lacking a bit. S5 isn't very good and 6 attacks can be just as easily achieved by putting a prince on an eagle.

Thinking about it a bit, how would you compare a ridden flamespire to a sun dragon (which is also not the most competitive choice, I know)? Roughly equal points, roughly the same S.

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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#25 Post by Curu Olannon »

The Sun Dragon is an interesting comparison, it has somewhat stronger offense but it lacks all the juicy stuff of the flamespyre, e.g. phoenix reborn and wake of fire, as well as attuned to magic (though breath weapon and 3+ armour somewhat compensates this). A huge difference though is that the Phoenix isn`t stubborn, unlike a Star Dragon with BOTWD support. I think you and I are on the same page here Rod, but it should also be noted that the ASF S7 A3 Anointed with an innate 4++ provides a unique role that is impossible to get otherwise in our lord section: yes Star Dragon is S7 but it doesn`t have ASF, and you can give a Prince a Star Lance but it will only be on the charge and if the Prince takes a Giant Blade he cannot get 4++ apart from high magic attribute / shield of the merwyrm in CC (neither of which he can benefit from whilst riding a Dragon).
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#26 Post by Prince of Spires »

Curu Olannon wrote:I think you and I are on the same page here Rod,
I do sometimes feel I'm arguing with myself here ;) Though generally speaking you have a lot more experience and skill when it comes to the star dragon.

I do think that the ASF from the anointed is balanced out a bit by the 6 attacks the SD has. 6 attacks gives 4 hits vs 2.7 from the annointed. The SD alone outguns the anointed + flamespire combination. And with a prince on top you can put out 10 S7 attacks. The annointed isn't even close. The added survivability is the only reasons this is still a discussion I think.

Problem is of course that I really want to like the mounted flamespire (and the mounted sun dragon for that matter). Monster mounts are just very evocative.

We'll see how Furion's flamespire manages. Both as part of the team (it could very well be that his main job is simply not losing after all) and for his own battle scores. We might be able to get some battle reports out of him...

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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#27 Post by SpellArcher »

Any Falcon Horns in this year's lists?
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#28 Post by Curu Olannon »

@SA - I think the Falconhorn is mandatory? :D Will take a look.

Indeed the Star Lance Star Dragon charge is insane, when you put it like that (10 S7 attacks...) you do realize just how hard it is.

The thing with the sun dragon is that it can be taken as a hero choice, allowing you to take the big bad bird as well. The few lists I have seen perform decently with it always has a dragon mage on top. With the exception of Australia`s whacky ETC list of last year (featuring an L4 death mage on moon dragon IIRC), these lists inevitably sport a star dragon + lord, giving you 2 stubborn dragons (which is harder than you`d think).

The problem with the Flamespyre is that it has to lose its wound for the special rule to take effect. This is risky business. Coupled with the lack of stubborn... You`re giving up so much. Perhaps Poland wants to have a strong answer to death-wielding armies (which the SD is sort of weak against), but the Flamespyre is "only" I4 and the Anointed is "only" LD9 4++. Oh well, only about a week until this all kicks off and we`ll be able to see how it performs. Hopefully we`ll see a couple of reports as well :)
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#29 Post by SpellArcher »

MR2 as well though Curu.

Furion mentioned Banishment as a concern.
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Re: Anointed on Flamespyre - terrible?

#30 Post by Curu Olannon »

I completely forgot that. Well MR2 definitely makes Death a lot less threatening. Where was Furion`s post?
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
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