Of Might and Magic: Can Saphery Stand Alone?

[lost user 14]

Greetings all.

I am not only a new member of this board, but a new member to the larger Warhammer community. I've "played" on and off since 5th edition, by which I mean that I've occasionally bought the army books or a few models before selling them off due to a lack of time, opponents, and/or funds. Now, however, I'm finally able to commit. I have a steady job, a supportive fiance, and access to a good gaming group. It is, at last, time for me to assemble an army.

The question, of course, is what should that army look like. I've spent the past few days devouring this board and reading the blogs of Curu, Swordmaster, Seredain, etc... and have begun to get a feel for a variety of lists, but none of them are quite what I'm looking for. Monster's have no interest to me and, while I quite enjoy the tales of heroic elf princes slaying the enemies of the Island kingdom, I'm not especially interested in the bus approach (if it possible to be avoided.) Instead, I'd like a White Tower themed army with every character capable of casting spells. Does this have any chance of success? How can I maximize the effectiveness/dominance of my magic phase without giving up a chance at victory?

I've considered something like Archmage + Mage lv2 + Mage lv2 + BSB (if only we still had the Radiant Gem!), but I really don't know what works. Please guide me!

P.S. - I did try to find a thread like this, but the search wouldn't let me use the words "magic," "mage", or variants thereof. I don't mean to be bringing up a topic that has been beat to death and apologize if I have. Further, I realize that this might seem like an army list thread, but that's not really my intent. I'm more interested in learning about the principles of HE magic in general. When should use it? How can we best deploy it? The BoH trickle phase seems essential, but I'd like to glean some other nuggets of magical lore if at all possible.

[Velmates]

Hello and welcome to Ulthuan.net!

Your request is a quite huge one and I am sure there are many players that are more capable of giving advice in detail.

All I can say is, yes, of course it is possible to use only mages and a BSB. Many good players use this character set-up (look for Tethlis' Army Blog for example; he is using a Shadow-Archmage, a Heavens-Mage and a BSB almost exclusively since 8th edition). I, myself, am running a list very similar to Tethlis' because it is this aspect of High Elves that lured me into plying them in the first place. My general is a Loremaster, supported by a level 2 High Mage and the ubiquituous BSB. Nowadays it is only viable to run a Prince when he is mounted and can hide in a unit of Dragonprinces or Silverhelms, I guess, even if I have never used this set-up. If you don't want to run a mounted bus of any kind, your selection is limited by default. So your approach is very viable.

[GrinningB@est]

Your character set up is very viable. It's bit magic heavy for some, but that's going to come down to personal taste, and there's no denying that having three lores (or doubling down on one) can bring some very effective tools to the table.

And if you're worried about leadership, you can always put your archmage in a unit that has the standard of discipline. Even without that, Ld 9 is perfectly fine. I saw the math once, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong but:

Ld9 with BSB re-roll= 99.1% pass rate
Ld10 with BSB re-roll=99.7% pass rate

And I personally LOVE chariots! HE's have some cheap and effective ones. Combine with Beasts magic (maybe on one of your lvl 2's?) for extra fun! Who needs monsters anyhow? Other thoughts- Lvl 4 shadow, 2 lvl 1's (or 2's) on Beasts (for offense) and Heavens (for defense) + horde (50-60) of spearmen. That combo also works well with a unit of lions and one of phoenix guard. Love it!

[SpellArcher]

Nowadays it is only viable to run a Prince when he is mounted and can hide in a unit of Dragonprinces or Silverhelms, I guess, even if I have never used this set-up.

US Masters-winning list had a foot Prince in PG.

[lost user 14]

Hello and welcome to Ulthuan.net!

Thank you!

Your request is a quite huge one and I am sure there are many players that are more capable of giving advice in detail.

Yes, you're quite right. My request is rather large. I had intended it to be general rather than amorphus in order to let experienced players guide the discussion, but I see now that I should have been more specific. More on that to follow. Don't put yourself down, though mate! You've played games > 500 points and that's more than me!

All I can say is, yes, of course it is possible to use only mages and a BSB.

Excellent! In many respects, that's all that need be said. The army is coming together.

Many good players use this character set-up (look for Tethlis' Army Blog for example; he is using a Shadow-Archmage, a Heavens-Mage and a BSB almost exclusively since 8th edition). I, myself, am running a list very similar to Tethlis' because it is this aspect of High Elves that lured me into plying them in the first place. My general is a Loremaster, supported by a level 2 High Mage and the ubiquituous BSB. Nowadays it is only viable to run a Prince when he is mounted and can hide in a unit of Dragonprinces or Silverhelms, I guess, even if I have never used this set-up. If you don't want to run a mounted bus of any kind, your selection is limited by default. So your approach is very viable.

Thank you for the tip about Tethlis. I've started reading his blog now and it's proving to be quite informative. I've also seen a number of Loremaster lists like the one you describe. I'm quite interested in the concept--nothing is as High Elven as a warrior mage--but I don't know if he'll be able to provide the dominance that I'm looking for. He seems to always be able to push units over the top, which may be what I'll end up at, but never seems to carry the list in the ways that I want. None-the-less, I love the model and its possibilities and a Loremaster will almost certainly be centering my early lists until I reach the 2,000+ point level.

@GrinningB@esy - Thanks for the encouragement! You make some good points about leadership, although I've read enough to see that the extra point can be instrumental in holding after combat. I think the idea of a mage in a chariot is unbelievably cool, although I'm not sure how optimal it would end up being. Chariots seem vulnerable enough--too place an expensive caster in one just seems too risky, especially as Empire will be one of my most common opponents. Have you had great experiences with the set up?

All -

As you have pointed out, my first question was hopelessly general. "Can a successful HE army have a heavy magic phase?" Of course it can. The real question is, "How do we maximize this?" Towards that end, it seems that there are three main areas that the HE wizard-general needs to apply him or herself:

1.) Choice of Lore
2.) Choice of Characters
3.) Choice of Application

The first choice is, I think, fairly self-explanatory. Which lore's work best? There are, obviously, a lot of debates on this and no clear cut answers. I'm leaning to a Lv. 4 Life Mage, a Lv. 2 High Mage, but haven't picked a lore for the 3rd. Fire and Metal are the only two without appeal. The questions here seem to be centered on: a.) What do I want my magic to do? b.) What units will my mages be interacting with? c.) What will I be able to rely on consistently? Dweller's is awesome, but can I depend on it?

The second choice seems equally obvious. How can we equip our hero's and lord's to survive and do their duties without diverting too many points to a phase that fundamentally relies on luck? The BoH seems essential to me, but are their other tricks to limiting the randomness of the magic phase? (Banner of Sorcery, I weep for thee!)

The third choice is, I think, the most complicated and the one I'm most interested in learning about. Once spells have been assigned, troops have been deployed, and the winds of magic have blown what general guidelines do we have? Obviously a lot of this is situational, but what are the best ways to determine which spell to use? How risky should we be in use of PD? Is it better to push though key spells early or to spread out the phase and see how it goes? Similarly, when we're defending what do you all use to govern your use of DD? The WoM are capricious, but surely we have some general techniques to ensure a victorious magic phase.

[GrinningB@est]

No, I can't recommend putting your archmage on a chariot, for exactly the reasons you stated (as a general course of action). However, if you know you won't be facing cannons in one game, the idea of a prince on a chariot with the Sword of Bloodshed and backed up by a lvl 4 Beasts mage just tickles me...

[Delaqure]

While a magic heavy list is quite viable I wouldn't go with more than two mages. The problem is we still only generate 2d6 power dice. Too often you will role too few Cicero make 3 mages worth it. More often than not one mage will be standing around shining his magic ring and not doing anything wasting his points. The points are better spent on troops who will be doing something. Saphrey is a cool theme and I applaud your idea. But put the extra points into Swordmasters.

[Curu Olannon]

If you want a magic heavy army go L4 with book, Loremaster with power stone, L1 with scroll. All on light. Truly terrifying.

[Shadeseraph]

In general, any council of light tends to work quite right with several mages and a BSB only. Curu's approach is possibly one of the most powerful ones, but it's quite expensive. I'm currently playing with Lvl 4 + 3 lvl 1s, all on light, with a fairly solid degree of success. That said, I was aiming at the S7 sweet spot on Banishment (enough to, on average, one-shot any 1+/3++ hero level WoC character, and any 1+/4++ lord level character), as targets for those spells tend to be quite popular in my meta.

[John Rainbow]

If you're going for a Coven of Light I think you should also consider Alarielle. Domine Nox was running a few lists centered around her and a big unit of WLs for a while. She is also pretty good in a few other lists too if you can make the most of her special banner.