Coven of Light

[Rabidnid]

What's tactical about scouting chaff and double S7 banishment? Its pretty straight forward. Don't get pissed cause I called you out on your list being as straight forward as gutstar Hellheart. Its lame and you know its lame, you have a hard counter get over yourself, or do you have "tactics" for the daemon player to be using against you?

I don't know how long you have been posting here, but that isn't the sort of list or question that gets respect around here and never will be. A 7 year old could play it and finish top 12. Not everyone on here is necessarily willing to call people out on their BS, but I don't have any problem doing it. HE's and the HE community don't need that particular stigma of the sore loser/whiny punk.

You chose to build a list designed around maximizing your the magic phase with multiple wizards. Which is perfectly legitimate. What isn't legitimate is then complaining about your hard counter as if your army isn't the hard counter to many other armies out there.

Judging by your last post you seem to be doing just fine. Feel free to ask a real question though.

Yup, BotWD is stupidly good. Short answer is if you have it you cannot complain about Hellheart.

Think of me as the local Swordmaster here to root out signs of the pleasure cults before the infection spreads to the innocent. I must be swift, merciless and unapologetic.

[Curu Olannon]

The Hellheart's not unable to be countered, but there is only one way to do it well, and that's splitting the characters up. Put the Level Four and/or Loremaster behind your main lines, leaving the Level One(s)/Two(s) closest to your opponent.

I already argued why this is a bad idea.

If the OK player pops the Heart on the Level Ones/Twos you consider yourself lucky and move on. If he keeps pushing really forward to try and reach the Lord casters, you push Lions either up or around him, and move Archers / Sisters with characters back / to the sides.

Pushing Lions close to <insert Maneaters or Mournfang or Gutstar> is suicide. They will just die.

There's this bad habit of keeping the Coven together, which you only really need to do if you're casting Banishment.

BOTWD.

You don`t have any units which threaten his gutstar - even timewarped lions to the face will die.

This is only the case if you're doing a solely Light Council (only Light Magic, no other buffs from Loremaster / Teclis). This is why the Loremaster is particularly good, even moreso than Teclis (for the points), IMO.

How would you build a list @2400 points that has a unit capable of successfully deterring an aggressive OK army with a Light Council core? Even if you have more buffs available, combat happens in 1 of 2 cases: 1. OK player charges. Your buffs are off or he wouldn`t charge. 2. You charge him. This means it`s your turn so if your mages move in for support, Hellheart blows you up.

An aggressive Ogre list with Hellheart is a strong counter to CoL HE. Yes you can split up but you`ll be vulnerable. Some CoL army compositions might be better than others for defensive play here, but at the end of the day you`re looking to inflict big casualties before he hits your lines. If not, you`re gonna have a bad time. Complaining that this is stupidly good is in my opinion the same as other people whining about BOTWD etc. It leads to no-where and is a natural consequence of the game being a big version of rock/paper/scissors. Sure, some of the rocks are too good and the Hellheart certainly is good value for 50 points, but so is the BOTWD that helps you out in way more matchups than the Hellheart manage to make difficult.

[Axiem]

Curu, a lot of what you wrote is generally applicable to playing HE, but when playing a Coven, and especially in the Ogre matchup, is incorrect.

I already argued why this is a bad idea.

BOTWD.

Pushing Lions close to <insert Maneaters or Mournfang or Gutstar> is suicide. They will just die.

Generally speaking (i.e. normal HE v. Ogre match ups) this is true. However when playing a Coven, neither applies in the Ogre matchup. Unless your opponent is running Death (something generally not run by Ogres as Heavens and Maw cover their weaknesses better) there isn't a reason to keep all the mages in the Banner unit. With the Level Four one-dicing spells anyway, the risks of miscasts from the Loremaster and Level 1/2 is completely manageable. Banishment and Searing Doom will be cast the first few turns from the Banner unit if you're going for large numbers of dice, but after that, remaining isn't mandatory. If your opponent is running Death, you are likely forced inside the Banner unit, but this is actually better than the alternatives of having Reavers/Eagles cleared by Heavens and being unable to misdirect the Star.

There's also the option, if your opponent is running Death, of offering a Turn 2 charge, which your opponent is likely to take, thereby eliminating the threat of the character snipes. This is where the SeaHelm becomes quite good for the list and prevents you from being overwhelmed if you are forced to engage early.

How would you build a list @2400 points that has a unit capable of successfully deterring an aggressive OK army with a Light Council core? Even if you have more buffs available, combat happens in 1 of 2 cases: 1. OK player charges. Your buffs are off or he wouldn`t charge. 2. You charge him. This means it`s your turn so if your mages move in for support, Hellheart blows you up.

What are we talking about here? ETC? Uncomped? I've already posted several suggestions (both in this thread and in other threads about Light), but by in large, the Swedish 2013 ETC list is a good place to start, then adjust for comp/uncomped, meta, and play style. Speaking generally, two things are likely to be true:

First, the White Lions are always going to have 2+ buffs off, unless you're also going very offensively (turns 1-2) or have mismanaged a magic phase / drawn the scroll. If you're playing against someone who has both Hellheart and Scroll (non-ETC), you need to draw scroll early, otherwise it can be a problem deterring charges properly in turns 3-4, forcing you to rely heavily on misdirectors. If you don't draw the Scroll, you need to have killed a unit of Mournfang with magic or at least removed their combat potential as a trade off of risking the charge turn 3-4, and because this buys you board space. Otherwise, the High Elf player is completely happy with a standoff: the Bolt Throwers and Coven will take out Mournfang / Maneaters plenty fine and you can easily close the game with a 12+ win while your misdirectors continue to run the Star around and combat is avoided.

Second, if combat is drawn, provided you have the buffs up, you win against all the aforementioned. If you're opponent pushes, singling out a single unit to engage with the Lions is relatively simple and unless you're getting combo charged (generally a sign of something done wrong) you'll be fine. Even a single buff (say, scroll is burnt) is enough to draw or win slightly against Mournfang or Maneaters and provided it's a decent one, you'll still have enough Lions to finish the job the following turn. Remember too, those units (excepting the Star) aren't likely to be a full strength.

Yes you can split up but you`ll be vulnerable. Some CoL army compositions might be better than others for defensive play here, but at the end of the day you`re looking to inflict big casualties before he hits your lines.

The vulnerability isn't an issue, as explained above. Most of the time, the Coven likes to play defensive anyway, and certainly has more than enough potential to inflict a lot of damage at range. That's kind of the point of the Coven after all: ranged damage + one big scary block that walks over things.

Ultimately, Banner of the World Dragon, while awesome, can be a crutch. You don't need it in every matchup, and when you don't, the added mobility and character resilience (through positioning) is often many times more useful than miscast protection. Ogre Kingdoms as a whole is a good matchup for the Coven, with or without the Hellheart.

Axiem

[Curu Olannon]

I`ll ask Dennis (Swedish player who wrote and played this list last year) what his thoughts on the matter are. Still though I`d like to see a specific list in a specific comp system where you feel the Coven has an advantage over OK. I might even have the chance to playtest it, though OK players are getting few and far between these days.

Until then, I present the following list as one who`d give me a nightmare (ETC comp system):

Slaughtermaster: General, Lvl 4, Heavens, Earthing Rod, Crown of Command, Warrior Bane, Charmed Shield, 355
Bruiser: BSB, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Rune Maw, 205
Butcher: lvl 2, Great Maw, Great Weapon, Hellheart, 194

9 Ironguts: FCG, Look-Out Gnoblar, Standard of Discipline, 437
3 Ironguts: Musician, 139
10 Gnoblars: 25

3x 1 Sabertusk Pack: 3x 21
5 Mournfang Cavalry: FCG, Iron Fist, Heavy Armour, Dragonhide Banner, 430
6 Maneaters: Musician, Brace of Ogre Pistols (x6), Sniper, Poisoned Attacks, 382

1 Ironblaster: 170
Total: 2400

[Ether Dude]

If you're worried about hellheart just deploy on the table edge. That gives you 24" before he's in range (if you don't move) and you ought to have enough diverters to stretch that into 5ish turns. Since you don't mind congas, you can also reform 30 wide to gain a fair number of inches, or leave a unit to bail into a 1 deep unit to gain another 7+ inches. He'd have to work pretty hard to get to you.

All the while, I'd shoot/magic off the man eaters (panic if you can), and iron blasters. Once they get cleared up, you deal with the mournfangs which you will play chicken with using a bus. You lose 2 eagles and 2 units of reavers for 270 (plus the odd repeater) and he loses MFC, iron blaster, and maneaters. 13+ win to you, etc achieved.

[Grenic]

Until then, I present the following list as one who`d give me a nightmare (ETC comp system):

Slaughtermaster: General, Lvl 4, Heavens, Earthing Rod, Crown of Command, Warrior Bane, Charmed Shield, 355
Bruiser: BSB, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Rune Maw, 205
Butcher: lvl 2, Great Maw, Great Weapon, Hellheart, 194

9 Ironguts: FCG, Look-Out Gnoblar, Standard of Discipline, 437
3 Ironguts: Musician, 139
10 Gnoblars: 25

3x 1 Sabertusk Pack: 3x 21
5 Mournfang Cavalry: FCG, Iron Fist, Heavy Armour, Dragonhide Banner, 430
6 Maneaters: Musician, Brace of Ogre Pistols (x6), Sniper, Poisoned Attacks, 382

1 Ironblaster: 170
Total: 2400

As we don’t use ETC rules locally, I had to look them up. Hopefully I found the current restrictions.

From what I could find, these appear to be ETC restrictions for High Elves (2014):
- No Special or Named Characters (applies to all Army Books)
- Maximum of 2 additional PD/DD (applies to all Army Books)
- Points: 2400
- Book of Hoeth/Banner of the World Dragon/Unmounted Frostheart Phoenix, max 2
- Frostheart Phoenix/Star Dragon/Moon Dragon, max 2
- Archmage with Lore of Shadow or Death cannot use Book of Hoeth
- Eagle Claw Bolt/Each 8 (or fraction) Shadow Warrior or Sister of Averlon models/Archer units, max 7
- Ellyrian Reaver units, max 3

Of these the three restrictions that impact a Coven of Light list are:
(1) No Special or Named Characters (applies to all Army Books)
(2) Maximum of 2 additional PD/DD (applies to all Army Books)
(3) Book of Hoeth/Banner of the World Dragon/Unmounted Frostheart Phoenix, max 2

The first ensures no double Banishment lists. The second restriction basically takes the Forbidden Rod off the table. The third restriction is interesting, but I will be assuming the CoL list will have the first two.

The list I would think about using would be:

Lords (590 pts, 24.5%)
- Archmage: Level 3, Staff of Sorcery, Talisman of Preservation (General, Lore of Light)
- Loremaster: Level 2, Book of Hoeth, Sunfire Gem, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield (8 Signature)
Heroes (395 pts, 16.5%)
- Mage: Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon (Lore of Light)
- Mage: Level 1, Channeling Rod, Ruby/Khaine’s Ring (Lore of Light)
- Noble: BSB, HA, Halberd, Lion Cloak, Golden Crown, Dragon Helm, Speed Potion, Reaver Bow
Core (605 pts, 25.2%)
- 13 x Archer: Long Bow, Musician, Standard Bearer
- 13 x Archer: Long Bow, Musician, Standard Bearer
- 5 x Ellyrian Reavers: Spears and Bows
- 5 x Ellyrian Reavers: Spears and Bows
- 5 x Silver Helm: Shields
Special (480 pts, 20.0%)
- 20 x White Lions: Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon
- 5 x Shadow Warriors
- 5 x Shadow Warriors
Rare (330 pts, 13.8%)
- 4 x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
- 1 x Great Eagle

Now thinking about how to address the Ogre list noted, I would expect that this game would be greatly influenced by the Initial Deployment decisions made by both players and the available terrain. As the Ogre list has 9 drops to 8 for CoL list, the Ogre player would be able to properly align the Gut Star across from the White Lions or the Hellheart unit (if not the Gut Star). However, with two scouting units the CoL list would have the advantage as they can be used to limit the movement of the Gut Star unit to allow the other Chaff units time to arrive.

As proposed by Ether Dude, I would place the White Lions near my table edge with the Archer units deployed more forward, but not in a position to block LoS, and so located that the closest front corner is at 12” from the planned location of the Archmage. Bolt throwers would be located to to get the best covering shots possible. The Great Eagle would likely be located behind one of the Archer units, on the flank that the Mournfangs are positioned. The idea would be to use the Archer unit and the Great Eagle to delay the Mournfangs’ advance so they can be removed by magic. The other Archer unit would be expected to delay whatever is more threatening in the later turns. The Reavers and Silver Helms’ primary role would be to delay the Gut Star.

While I agree with the target prioritization Ether Dude noted, it seems to me that it was assumed that the Hellheart was located in the Gut Star. I would think that if this was not the case, and instead it was located say in the smaller Irongut unit, then I would focus on deleting this unit first, then the Maneaters, Iron blaster, etc. In either case, all S3 shooting would be initially focused on deleting the Sabertusks as I need to make sure that they don’t chaff-up my Chaff. Once they have been removed, the S3 shooting would focus on that turn’s deletion focus.

[Axiem]

I`ll ask Dennis (Swedish player who wrote and played this list last year) what his thoughts on the matter are. Still though I`d like to see a specific list in a specific comp system where you feel the Coven has an advantage over OK. I might even have the chance to playtest it, though OK players are getting few and far between these days.

Please do! I've be very interested in hearing what he says! My gut feeling is that he doesn't feel the Coven is viable under the current ETC drafts, because of the Book, Banner, Frostheart line, but I'd be interested in hearing anything he has to say about the matchup in general.

I will note however, that most of the world does not play ETC (regularly, or at all) and that much of what I said is general advice for that reason. Part of the reason the Coven doesn't work terribly well in current ETC drafts is the Book + Banner + Frostheart comp line which, at least IMO, I feel really hurts the list more than it does the other builds. There's also the argument that Helms are just better Core points, which I agree with. But remember, ETC isn't the standard, uncomped is. Just because it isn't as variable in ETC at the moment, doesn't mean it's any less viable in normal play.

With that in mind, I don't feel confident that a 2400 Coven with the current ETC restrictions is better than the alternatives. That doesn't mean that it won't be useful again in future restrictions, Swedish, or uncomped, that last of which, I feel the Coven is actually quite strong in still. Specifically, I would say a normal, uncomped HE list facing a normal uncomped OK list (similar to what you posted, or 2x Mounfang / Tyrant builds) is advantage HE, even with the Heart as I've explained above. Having played the uncomped matchup quite a bit, I'm fairly confident in this statement.

@Grenic

For those who might not be familiar, here are the ETC lists in question.

ETC 2013 List (Sweden):

Loremaster of Hoeth: General, Level 2, Heavy armour, Great weapon, Earthing rod, Sword of antiheroes, Shield of merwyrm, 300
Archmage: Level 4, light, Book of hoeth, Ironcurse icon 280
Mage: Level 1, light, 85
Lothern Seahelm: BSB, Shield, Spear, Light armour, Standard of discipline 140

10 Achers: Musician 110
23 Achers: Musician, Standard, 250
3x 5 Ellerion Reavers: 80

28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of World Dragon, 444

1 Frostheart Phoenix: 240
2x 1 Great Eagle: 50
3x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers: 70
Total: 2399

ETC 2014 List (Australia):

Loremaster Of Hoeth: General, Lvl 2, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Warrior Bane, Shield of the Merwyrm, Earthing Rod, 275
Archmage: Lvl 4 light, Power stone, 240
Lothern Sea Helm: BSB, Light armour, Shield, Hand Weapon, Spear, Bow, Talisman of preservation, 170
Mage: Lvl 1 light, Dispell Scroll, 110

17 Archers: Musician, 180
16 Archers: Musician, 170
2x 5 Silver Helms: Musician, Shields, 2x 125

27 White Lions of Chrace: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 431

4x 1 Repeat Bolt Thrower: 4x 70
1 Great Eagle: 50
1 Frostheart Phoenix: 240

Total: 2400

The first ensures no double Banishment lists. The second restriction basically takes the Forbidden Rod off the table. The third restriction is interesting, but I will be assuming the CoL list will have the first two.

As I pointed out above, it really needs all three, which is what hurts the Coven in the current ETC drafts. The Frostheart is required, and if anything, you're forced to drop the Book, even if you don't want to. There's also an argument for dropping the Banner, in favor of Magic Resistance but then, well, you're dropping the best piece of magic we have access to. Not a strong argument for it.

The list you posted there Grenic has a couple other problems, the most glaring of which is the overload of points in characters. The Coven works well because it's not overly expensive for the massive spell-selection you have available. If you're going up to S7 Banishment and stacking all the characters with magic, you're loosing out on the benefits the Coven gives you. You also always want Book of Hoeth on the Level 4, to ensure she can one-dice all of the Light Spells, while the Loremaster draws dice with Heavens, Beasts, and Shadow spells. This is how you ensure you get 2+ buffs on the Lions each turn, potentially more.

There's also the problem that the Lions are too small and the misdirectors too plentiful. You're missing out on the Phoenix as well, which forces you to take another blocker to deal with armies flooding you. A Dawnstone BSB might be better in your kind of list but then you're missing out on the Sea Helm, a real strength of the Coven (another something I would add to your list).

Ultimately, it's these kinds of conflicts that cause the Coven to become more problematic than it's worth in ETC. In normal, uncomped, or light-comp systems however, the Coven has a lot of potential still.

Axiem

[Curu Olannon]

PM sent to Dennis. I know his list works well, last year it did well in several events including a low-comp (close to 0 comp) win here in Scandinavia. He was also one of the top HE at ETC last year.

In uncomped play I assume it`s better as you can double up for example and get a huge magic phase through Forbidden Rod.

@Grenic - I`ll see if I have an opportunity to play such a list vs said OK list. I wouldn`t want to bet on myself though

Since we started discussing comp systems, how would you all build the Coven at 2400 points without no comp?

[Grenic]

@Axiem, thanks for the feedback and the two ETC examples. The comment about needing to reduce the character spends for an ETC list was noted. I also liked the Archmage set-up used by the Australian team, having the option to throw more dice when the channels have failed to add dice is a great idea.

As I prefer CoL lists that use Chaff instead of monsters, I got the character spend down and used these points to increase the Chaff by another unit of Shadow Warriors:

Lords (545 pts, 22.7%)
- Loremaster: Level 2, Book of Hoeth, Sunfire Gem (General, 8 Signature) - 305 pts
- Archmage: Level 4, Power Stone (Lore of Light) - 240 pts
Heroes (375 pts, 15.6%)
- Mage: Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon (Lore of Light) - 115 pts
- Mage: Level 1, Khaine’s Ring (Lore of Light) - 110 pts
- Noble: BSB, HA, Halberd, Lion Cloak, Golden Crown, Dragon Helm, Reaver Bow - 150 pts
Core (600 pts, 25.0%)
- 14 x Archer: Long Bow, Musician, Standard Bearer - 160 pts
- 13 x Archer: Long Bow, Musician, Standard Bearer - 150 pts
- 5 x Ellyrian Reavers: Spears and Bows - 95 pts
- 5 x Ellyrian Reavers: Spears - 80 pts
- 5 x Silver Helm: Shields - 115 pts
Special (550 pts, 22.9%)
- 20 x White Lions: Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon - 340 pts
- 5 x Shadow Warriors - 70 pts
- 5 x Shadow Warriors - 70 pts
- 5 x Shadow Warriors - 70 pts
Rare (330 pts, 13.8%)
- 4 x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 280 pts
- 1 x Great Eagle - 50 pts

Comparing the Australian 2014 ETC list to the list above, it trades the Frost Phoenix for three units of Shadow Warriors, Khaine’s Ring, and the Ironcurse Icon. The remaining difference is related to the size and composition of the White Lion unit itself. This list trades 7 White Lions, Sea Helm BSB (4+ WS), and Perry save on the Loremaster for a regular BSB (Reaver Bow), another Mage to get a S7 Banishment, and the Book of Hoeth.

While there is also a difference in the composition of the Core units, it can likely be chalked up to different list support and chaff unit needs.

Interestingly enough, both lists can have essentially the same amount of points tied up in the White Lion unit (1260 vs. 1226 for the Australian List). So, they may be equally good at points denial.

@Curu, as for a no comp environment, I would likely revert to a Teclis based list along the lines of:

Lords (450 pts, 18.8%)
- Teclis: Moon Staff of Lileath, Scroll of Hoeth, Sword of Teclis, War Crown of Saphery (General, High/Book Lores) - 450pts
Heroes (540 pts, 22.5%)
- Mage: Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon (Lore of Light) - 150 pts
- Mage: Level 2(Lore of Light) - 120 pts
- Mage: Forbidden Rod (Lore of Light) - 120 pts
- Noble: BSB, HA, Halberd, Lion Cloak, Golden Crown, Dragon Helm, Reaver Bow - 150 pts
Core (600pts, 25.0%)
- 14 x Archer: Long Bow, Musician, Standard Bearer - 160 pts
- 13 x Archer: Long Bow, Musician, Standard Bearer - 150 pts
- 5 x Ellyrian Reavers: Bows and Spears - 95 pts
- 5 x Ellyrian Reavers - 80 pts
- 5 x Silver Helm: Shields - 115 pts
Special (480 pts, 20.0%)
- 20 x White Lions: Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon - 360 pts
- 5 x Shadow Warriors - 70 pts
- 5 x Shadow Warriors - 70 pts
Rare (330pts, 13.8%)
- 4 x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 280 pts
- 1 x Great Eagle - 50 pts

This list trades a unit of Shadow Warriors, Khaine’s Ring, Archmage, and the Loremaster for Teclis, the Forbidden Rod, upgrading the Level 1’s to Level 2’s, and another Level 1 Mage, which gives the list two dispel scrolls and a high probability of getting double S7 Banishment.

Good luck with your game against the Ogres, it will be an up hill one

[Curu Olannon]

I need to learn how to play Warhammer, apparantly:

hi
the HE light consil list is really good against OK it cant thouch the gutstar but can kill rest of army without take to much losses. so this is about 12-8 win for HE divert the star the whole game and blast the rest..

with this years restrictions you have 2 alternative, play without the book and get a scepter and some nouns things or play without the phoenix and have 2*5 sisters and some bonus things.

Comfortably winning 12-ish vs OK is not something most HE lists can count on doing. I assume the primary target in the example list above is the Maneaters since their poison can really ruin the day. I would like to see how you can do this and still keep both the Mournfang and Gutstar at bay, however.

[Grenic]

Curu, to give you some idea of the potential competitiveness of a Teclis based CoL Chaffmaster list, I recently played in the Lords of War tourney which was a 36 person, 2500 point, 6 round, open list tourney with no material comp (http://lordsofwartournament.com). The tourney did feature scenarios and bonus scenario points per round. Fortunately, the T.O. posted the results that showed the scenario points won each round, allowing me to adjust the total points for the top 5 players.

My list was:

Lords (450 pts, 18.0%)
- Teclis, Level 5, Magic Kit (General, High/8 Book Lores) - 450pts
Heroes (558 pts, 22.3%)
- Mage, Level 2, Dispel Scroll, (Lore of Light) - 145 pts
- Mage, Level 2, Channelling Rod, Ironcurse Icon (Lore of Light) - 140 pts
- Mage, Forbidden Rod (Lore of Light) - 120 pts
- Noble, BSB, HA, Lion Cloak, Golden Crown, Shield of Myrwyrm, Reaver Bow - 153 pts
Core (625 pts, 25.0%)
- 15 x Archer, Long Bow, Musician, Standard Bearer - 170 pts
- 15 x Archer, Long Bow, Musician, Standard Bearer - 170 pts
- 5 x Ellyrian Reavers, Spears, Standard Bearer - 90 pts
- 5 x Ellyrian Reavers, Spears - 80 pts
- 5 x Silver Helm: Shields - 115 pts
Special (537 pts, 21.5%)
- 19 x White Lions: Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon - 327 pts
- 5 x Shadow Warriors - 70 pts
- 5 x Shadow Warriors - 70 pts
- 5 x Shadow Warriors - 70 pts
Rare (330pts, 13.2%)
- 4 x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 280 pts
- 1 x Great Eagle - 50 pts

Before adjustments, my list was tied for fourth at 99 points (there was actually three at 99, but I found that one player had been given 8 bonus points in round one when the maximum you could score was 4). After taking out the scenario bonus points and assuming I did the math correctly, the list placed 3rd overall based purely on combat BPs. On average the list scored 1650 VPs per round and gave up 799 VPs (after adjusting for the one +350 VP scenario effect), resulting in an average on board VP advantage of 851 or around a 15-5 BP showing using a scale of 10 BP +/- 1 VP for each additional 150 VPs scored/lost.

Overall the list went 5 wins and 1 loss. My opponents, BP split (me-opponent), scored VPs (me/opponent), and list compositions were:
Round 1: O&G (20-0; 2241/310):
- Black Orc Warboss, Savage Orc Great Shaman, NG Big Boss, NG Shaman, Gobo Big Boss on Spider;
- 40xNight Gobos, 20xNight Gobos, 38xSavage Big’uns, 2 – 5xWolf Riders, 18xBlack Orcs;
- Arachnarock, 2xDoom Divers, 2xRock Lobbers.

Round 2: WoC (17-3; 2174/1095):
- Daemon Prince (Khorne with 2+ WS), 2xExalted Hero on Barded Mount (one was BSB);
- 5xChaoas Chariots, 5xDogs;
- 3xChimera, War Shrine.

Round 3: DE (6-14*; 665/1325*) * includes scenario VP of +2 BP & +350 VPs
- Dreadlord Supreme Sorceress, Master, 2xSorceress (all on steeds), Master on Peg;
- 6 - 5xDark Riders, 5xWarlocks, 11xWarlocks;
- 4xRBT.

Round 4: WoC (16-4; 2119/1115):
- Daemon Prince (Slaanesh), Exalted Hero on mount, Sorcerer on Disc;
- 13xChaos Warriors, 4xChaos Chariots, 5xForsaken, 5xdogs;
- 3xSkullcrushers, 4xSkullcrushers.

Round 5: Empire (12-8; 1134/778):
- Battle Wizard Lord, Grand Master, Captain of the Empire (BSB), Warrior Priest;
- 10xArchers, 38xHalberdiers, 11xInner Circle Knights, 2 - 5xOutriders;
- 4xDemi, Helblaster, Great Cannon, 2xS-tanks.

Round 6: (16-4; 1570/520):
- Grey Seer on Bell, Warlock Engineer with Doom Rocket, 2xAssasins (both with Magic Weapons);
- 35xStormvermin, 2 - 40xSkavenslaves, 2 - 5xGutter Runners, 24xClanrats;
- Hellpit Abomination, Doomwheel, 2xWarp-lightning Cannons.

[Axiem]

I need to learn how to play Warhammer, apparently. Comfortably winning 12-ish vs OK is not something most HE lists can count on doing. I assume the primary target in the example list above is the Maneaters since their poison can really ruin the day. I would like to see how you can do this and still keep both the Mournfang and Gutstar at bay, however.

I appreciate you reaching out to Dennis, thanks for the info Curu!

Against Maneaters, yes, I would assume so. I have more experience against the 2x Mournfang setup but I don't see this being that different: Maneaters die just fine to bow shots and Bolt Throwers. The trick isn't keeping both the Mournfang and the Gutstar at bay: the Mournfang are usually setup opposite the Lions (or close enough to bait charges), which they are happy enough to take if they have their 2+ buffs (otherwise, standoff as explained above). The other unit of Mounfang (or Maneaters in this circumstance) takes the brunt of the shooting while the Gutstar is just misdirected.

I'm afraid Ogres are, mostly, falling out of fashion here as well, so I'm not sure if I can provide you with any battle reports against them. If I do get the opportunity, I'll be sure to take some pictures though!

with this years restrictions you have 2 alternative, play without the book and get a scepter and some nouns things or play without the phoenix and have 2*5 sisters and some bonus things.

I am quite curious however: in the context of our HE book, what exactly is a "noun thing"

Axiem

[Curu Olannon]

Grenic - I do not doubt the CoL`s competitive potential. I`ve been an avid fan of the build ever since Brewmaster showed some amazing results a couple of years ago. True, the old book did this build better in most comped environment at least, but the principle`s largely the same. What I do believe however is that there are hard counters out there. I thought OK was one, but at least in an ETC context I`m wrong. Like Axiem my experience is also that Ogres are falling out of fashion. Personally I think this is a good thing. I think the army is too one-dimensional by design with some serious flaws. It`s a pity for OK players, but I digress.

The lists you met Grenic look pretty horrible. The DE one in particular gives me nightmares. It doesn`t look as nasty on paper but if you`ve ever faced one like that... With that said, lists are only a part of the match being played. Player skill matters tremendously, needless to say, and scenarios can make a big difference as well.

I am quite curious however: in the context of our HE book, what exactly is a "noun thing"

Pretty sure it`s a spelling mistake for "bonus". Autocomplete perhaps?

[Grenic]

Grenic - I do not doubt the CoL`s competitive potential. I`ve been an avid fan of the build ever since Brewmaster showed some amazing results a couple of years ago. True, the old book did this build better in most comped environment at least, but the principle`s largely the same. What I do believe however is that there are hard counters out there. I thought OK was one, but at least in an ETC context I`m wrong. Like Axiem my experience is also that Ogres are falling out of fashion. Personally I think this is a good thing. I think the army is too one-dimensional by design with some serious flaws. It`s a pity for OK players, but I digress.

Actually, Brewmaster and I play in the same gaming region. Back when he was playing and posting more frequently, we discussed his CoL list on several occasions. Likely the reason why OK are less of a hard counter under current ETC rules is because they can’t take both a Dispel Scroll and the Helheart. If they could, I would wonder if a chaff heavy single S7 Banishment list would be viable. By the way, did Dennis’ list get posted somewhere?

The lists you met Grenic look pretty horrible. The DE one in particular gives me nightmares. It doesn`t look as nasty on paper but if you`ve ever faced one like that... With that said, lists are only a part of the match being played. Player skill matters tremendously, needless to say, and scenarios can make a big difference as well.

The lists I faced in the tourney may have been horrid, but they were pretty much “normal fare” around here. We also mostly play Warhammer straight out of the BRB or with very light comp. The list that was second was also a High Elf list that featured 4 frost phoenixes and after adjusting for the scenario BPs beat my list by 1 or 2 BPs. The list that won I believe was either Warriors or DoC. Either way this will likely be the list he’s bringing to the Crossroads GT this coming weekend.

In the 6th game against the Skaven player, from a high level one would have expected a 20-0 victory as my opponent graciously misfired off both warp lightning cannons on turn 1 and my magic phases were all 7 or more with the first three being 12 (one was +6 PD Forbidden Rod assisted). But then the dice being dice just seemed balance all this goodness out with poor casting rolls, I think Teclis failed to cast Banishment at least once on 4 PD as did the second level (when only needing a 10+). The Skaven player was also being smiled upon when rolling armour saves, when he was able to roll them.

In both games against the Warriors of Chaos, placing units and war machines in woods was a major contributor to the victories. In the first game, the Warriors player lost 2 chariots to the woods. In the second, he only lost one. In the first game I was able to prove out the benefit of having Teclis take the “Savage Beasts of Horros” spell. It worked really well on my hand weapon and Reaver Bow totting BSB. Being able to easily get 3 S8 bow shots and then 6 S7 ASF close combat attacks is just awesome. This guy dropped the Daemon Prince after three Banishment attempts failed (though they did score enough to leave him with just one wound) and then later on his own he dropped a Chimera in close combat. In the second game I used this spell on the level 1 Mage so he could challenge his BSB (BSB made a lone overrun into the flank of White Lions). The S6, 5A ASF (+1A from Timewarp) Mage did seem to make my opponent sweat a little.

As for that Dark Elf list, yeah it was annoying, but I think now that I have seen how it operates I feel more confident on how to address it next time. I think that I should kill the RBTs and peg rider right away with magic, then deal with the Warlocks. Use Eagle Claws and S3 shooting against the Dark Riders, then focus on the Warlocks.

[Curu Olannon]

Well the Teclis coven is no babe in the woods either. The added flexibility he brings along with double banishment most certainly helps you out!

Dennis´ list from last year:

Dennis Palmkvist, High Elves
Loremaster of Hoeth: General, Level 2, Heavy Armour, Great weapon, Earthing Rod, Sword of Anti-heroes, Shield of Merwyrm, 300
Archmage: Level 4, Light, Book of Hoeth, Ironcurse Icon 280
Mage: Level 1, Light, 85
Lothern Seahelm: BSB, Shield, Spear, Light Armour, Standard of Discipline 140
10 Achers: Musician 110
23 Achers: Musician, Standard, 250
3x 5 Ellerion Reavers: 80
28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of World Dragon, 444
1 Frostheart Phoenix: 240
2x 1 Great Eagle: 50
3x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers: 70
Total: 2399

Restrictions were not as hard last year, hence the book + banner + frost combo.

Your environment sounds highly competitive Grenic and I do seem to recall Brewmaster playing a fair share of tough lists as well (does he still play?). Any chance of you opening an army blog? I`d be interested in seeing how your games play

[Grenic]

Well it looks like my favorite tourney to attend; Crossroads GT is going to an ETC set-up in the spring. Hopefully the fall event will remain a true Warhammer tourney and return to its historic light comp.

Not sure that I’m overly happy about this as ETC comp is really set-up for teams of players that are able to choose their pairings. Singles events with initial random pairings followed by battle point based pairings may result in certain army books having to endure a comp that makes it difficult to build an "all comers" list.

If I decide to go, looks like I will be taking my proposed CoL list I posted earlier.

Curu, any advice on ETC comp? I really think not being able to have some influence over your pairings breaks the ETC comp.

[Curu Olannon]

Personally after seeing the SCGT, NWGT, Giant Fanatic and various house-ruled comp systems I think the ETC is the best comp system for medium-comp, singles play. I haven`t dug into Swedish yet so I can`t speak about its ability to create options and all-comers lists. I am curious though, what factions don`t you think can build good all-comers lists with ETC comp? I`ve seen almost every faction perform well in a singles ETC environment, although the meta is a little hard on CD and BM, at the moment, the rest can all feature some highly competitive builds in my opinion.

As for my suggestions (I assume you`re taking HE) it depends so much on your meta. Will people adapt to ETC? If yes, the Star Dragon is a solid choice. However if people will keep bringing what they can despite ETC not favouring cannons for example, the SD will have a hard time. Cavbus can work, but if Dwellers is popular the Deathtrain is doomed.

Perhaps, ironically enough, the Coven of Light is your best bet here? It`s largely a build you know and I honestly don`t think giving up either the book or the frosty will make that big of an impact: You can go Power Stone instead or ditch the bird for more shooting.

[SpellArcher]

I largely agree ETC is pretty good for a medium comp. The main issue I would have with it is a point Furion makes repeatedly, it could be simpler. I feel SCGT comp lost it's way a bit and I just don't believe Swedish can ever be properly balanced. Personally I'd choose light set restrictions and no points changes but it all depends what you want from a comp.

[Curu Olannon]

I wholeheartedly agree with Furion that the ETC comp pack is currently too paranoid. I don`t think it hurts many factions though, largely it`s limiting options that (probably) aren`t broken, leading to less variety. While unfortunate, it`s the price to pay for the currently best comp system. As for Swedish, I think the principle -can- work if you put hard restrictions on where you want armies (e.g. 11.5 => 12.5).

[SpellArcher]

Both ETC and Swedish attempt to 'balance the books', which I personally dislike. Swedish in particular just seems to cramp the books with everyone ending up playing a soft army. It may help equal competition but I'd rather just pick my list from the book and let the other guy do the same.

[Mufasa]

I'm attending a tournament next month that uses the End Times rules (+ ETC comp + special characters are allowed). I have played some practice games using the Sweden's ETC 2013 List and I quite like it. However because I'm allowed to take 50% lords I was thinking to switch the Level 4 for Alarielle. You would have to drop some lions and probably an eagle to get the points but I think she could be worth it. 5+ ward save to lions and the ability to cast banishment twice in one round seems really good.

Any thoughts?

[John Rainbow]

I think the principle -can- work if you put hard restrictions on where you want armies (e.g. 11.5 => 12.5).

Or give advantages/disadvantages in game based on the difference in comp. For instance, Buck-Eye battles was recently played in the US and is tournament using Swedish. Any comp above 0 is allowed. You then get banded based on comp, I think 0-8 is band 1, 8 to something is band 2 and there might be a band 3 too. On day 1 you are guaranteed to play 3 games from people in your comp 'band' and then day 2 is open so a guy from band 1 who won all 3 games should play a guy from band 2 who won all 3 on table 1. There are then also things like if there is a comp difference of more than 9, the higher comp score (softer list) chooses who goes first, etc. I think this helps balance out the comp thing.

[Curu Olannon]

To a certain degree I agree John. I do believe however that some armies can simply max out and not care if they don`t choose neither side, first turn or anything. With the point system in place however you have many options.