Let's talk about the Lore of Light

[Sackree]

I've been thinking about magic lores lately and with the rise of Elves in the meta game one that really sticks out to me now that didn't before is the lore of light.

The lore of light doesn't contain any 6 dice kill spells like death or life and upon first looking at it seems rather weak in what it does. But when you begin to consider the nature of the buffs it gives us and the fact that most of them can be bubbled at a rather low cost then it starts to look a lot better.

Shem's - 24" D6 S4 flaming hits on a 5+ Very easy to cast on one dice with the book, very good at clearing chaff of the table. What's better is that it can be boosted in both strength and range to a S6 48" range magic missile which is great at clearing regen monsters off the table.

Pha's protection - IMO the best spell in the lore, -1 to be hit in close combat and shooting and leaves warmachine a with a 50% chance of working. That alone is a fantastic augment, then you realise it is cast on a 6+, allowing for an easy one dice with the book. Then it gets even better as on a 12+ You can bubble the spell 12" and have it protect the main body of your army for the first few turns of the game. With an Lvl 4 book mage you will meet the casting value on 3d6 almost every time. This keeps us very much alive until combat against the increasing amount of BS shooting in the game from all the elves, as well as gun lines such as empire and dwarves.

Speed of Light - We strike first and hit better than most armies so why do we need this? The rise of Elves and the loss of us rerolling great weapons has left Whitelions and swordmasters very weak vs anything that strikes first. Being able to boost the WS and I to a level where we will be hit on 4's by elves and denying rerolls and 5's by anything else is very beneficial to our survival. If coupled with Pha's then you are being hit on 5's or 6's. Not to mention how well it synergizes with a Star Dragon or a Frost Phoenix who are generally slower than a lot of other threats out there. And all this for a 8+ casing value, which is 2D6 with the book and it can be bubbled for a 16+ cost which is very cheap for an army wide buff.

Light of Battle - This spell only has a base range of 12" which isn't that big if targeting a single unit. Makes our units unbreakable and auto rally. Ideally we should never be in a position where we are going to be breaking, but it happens and this spell is a insurance policy. It can be bubbled to all units but at 18+ it is a high casting cost.

Net of Amyntok A Strength test every time a unit wants to perform something? A lot of armies these days have high strength making this spell a little more unreliable but being able to neutralise a unit for a whole turn is fantastic. It also works in every phase so if you cast it on the enemies wizard bunker then it then their is usually a 50/50 chance that they won't be casting spells this on their turn which is huge. Once again a low casting cost and the range can be boosted to 48" making it useable from turn 1.

Banishment Made famous from the Coven of Light. a 2D6 S4 magic missile that forces rerolls to ward saves and can have its strength boosted? Fantastic, made even better by its very low casting cost and the fact that it can have its range boosted. Probably the best magic missile in the game.

Timewarp Requires a lot more finesse than most the spells in the lore as it effects something that will occur in our next turn so requires some extra planning. The +1 attack is great as it can produce scary effects such as 7 extra white lion attacks, or making phoenix guard even choppier. 12+ is not a bad cast for one unit but to bubble it you need a 24+ which requires a high winds of magic role. The basic range of 12" also makes me willing to forgo this one.

After going over the spells it is clear to see that the lore benefits keeping an army tightly together to maximise the bubbling of spells. This to me make it work well with infantry based lists. A lot of the spells also benefit Dragons and Phoenixs making a Monster Mash list more viable.
The one list I don't see this working too well in is the cavbus just because ward stacking with high is a better option to protect your bus.

Thoughts?

[Curu Olannon]

I have been an advocate of this lore for as long as I can remember. I find it puzzling that there is currently no-one currently chronicling an attempt to make such a list work. I think the lore has multiple potential uses, first of all a very defensive playstyle though, but I`ve also seen players have success with a combined arms approach.

As for 6-dicing, I think both high-strength Banishment and Timewarp qualify here. I mean, White Lions in combat against a unit receiving Timewarp is a hugely terrifying prospect - not only do they get +1A but if/when they win, they can reform and charge with M10 in any direction. If that doesn`t scare you, I don`t know what will

Light is also interesting because it has lots of Area of Effect spells. In an uncomped environment I can see 6-dicing boosted Timewarp with an MSU-style army as a terrible prospect - imagine 6 high elf elite infantry units with M10! Maybe it`s just a theoretical approach but again I`m surprised noone has given it a try.

[RedPanda]

I have been an advocate of this lore for as long as I can remember. I find it puzzling that there is currently no-one currently chronicling an attempt to make such a list work. I think the lore has multiple potential uses, first of all a very defensive playstyle though, but I`ve also seen players have success with a combined arms approach.

As for 6-dicing, I think both high-strength Banishment and Timewarp qualify here. I mean, White Lions in combat against a unit receiving Timewarp is a hugely terrifying prospect - not only do they get +1A but if/when they win, they can reform and charge with M10 in any direction. If that doesn`t scare you, I don`t know what will

Light is also interesting because it has lots of Area of Effect spells. In an uncomped environment I can see 6-dicing boosted Timewarp with an MSU-style army as a terrible prospect - imagine 6 high elf elite infantry units with M10! Maybe it`s just a theoretical approach but again I`m surprised noone has given it a try.

No no, imagine if it was a Calvary unit or a flyer = Movement 18 and 20 so it is a possible first turn charge or a march move to move behind their ranks on the first turn even better if it was the 12" bubble.

The problem is that 90% of people like nuke/killy spells not augment spells, which this lore does the best.

[Curu Olannon]

Movement cannot go beyond 10 so timewarp on cav/flyers is not that good for threat projection purposes.

[Malossar]

The question becomes is this lore worth taking outside of a coven and if so why?

While the lore is great at augmenting, it doesn't have as many augments as we might want. As a tomb king player every spell is awesome except for light of battle (lol already unbreakable) because it covers WS, Ini, and attack issues as well as durability through phas and net.

High Elves already have ASF, high WS, high Ini and can be pretty durable in CC. Are we getting the full mileage from the lore?

[Wicksi]

Granted I've never tried lore of light neither have I've been tempted to,

But as far as I can judge from the lore I'd say unless you actually face elves the lore doesnt seem that good.

Banishment might be awesome if you got 1 or 2 extra mages to get the Strength up, I feel however that if you dont have that its more or less like a fireball and considering wardsaves isnt that common I'd say its a good spell sure but its not great.

Timewarp extra attack is awesome.

pha's protection is also quite awesome.

but puting these spells aside, if you dont face elves I personally find this lore more or less a waste.
It has a normal magic missile you can get this in almost any lore.

Speed of light against anything like ws3 4ish that doesnt have I6 (basicly everything except elves) the only thing this does is make you harder to hit which you can get from other lores like heavens/shadow/High magic.

Light of Battle can be very good if you get unlucky or you make a huge mistake but assuming you have a normal luck and dont do anything wrong this spell isnt useful at all.

Net of Amnytok great vs s3 once again like elves but other units you want to stop will most likely be atleast S4 making this spell quite unreliable (granted if it works it is awesome)

so atleast in my opinion this lore is GREAT vs other elves but if
you dont face elves then it doesnt really do anything you cant do (probably even better) with another lore.

But once again I havent tried to the lore so take what I say with a handfull of salt.

[Curu Olannon]

if you dont face elves I personally find this lore more or less a waste.

Net of Amyntok is insta-fail for WMs. It is also very dangerous for anything S3, including but not limited to Empire, Bretonnia, Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts (Hexwraiths).

Shem`s Burning gaze is amazing against VC and DoC, 2D6 S6 hits with 48" range is just *that* good.

That leaves us with Speed of Light and Light of Battle. While situational, these are incredibly powerful. Light of Battle is better than unbreakable (since you can still flee) and auto-passing a break test is just insane. Speed of Light is very good against other stuff with I5+, of which WoC, DoC and anything Elven qualifies. If you have a Dragon or a Frostheart, it`s even better.

Overall the lore has a couple of truly powerful spells, but the inclusion of a Coven to make Banishment a killer is what makes it viable, in my opinion. This is not just an expense to get a S6 Magic Missile (though of course that is the main reason), it allows you to bring multiple arcane items, gives you more channels and allows you to spam magic missiles against stuff like Lizardmen, DE MSU, Wood Elves etc. Bringing this many points into mages does limit the rest of your options though, to the point where your overall list needs to work with these, not against them. I think this is a bigger restriction than the Lore`s capabilities in itself.

[Cold Phoenix]

I look at the lore of light and want to try it, but I also see some problems:

1-There's a sort of anti-synergy built into a lot of the spells from a HE, because they don't combine well with typical units or other spells in the lore. Many of the spells are also situational or highly matchup dependent. Some HE units, such as Archers, Spearmen, Swordmasters, and Phoenix Guard don't get much out of the lore of light. They've already got some of the things that the lore gives and would really prefer spells which improve their chances of wounding the enemy or impair enemy saves.

2-Most lores gently steer you towards some units/characters/magic items. If you want to exploit other synergies, such as those between units, you can usually do it without major problems. Lore of light strong-arms you into taking certain things to get the most out of it. If you don't some things such as a Council, you aren't exploiting the Lore fully.

3-Lore of light is perhaps the one lore where a Special Character (The Everqueen with Banner of Avalon BSB) is arguably much better than the standard Archmage with Book. She's got a big advantage because she gives her unit Magical attacks, a 5++ mundane, allows you to take the Banner of Avalon to allow her attendant mages to cast effectively, heals a nearby characters, can pick spells from more than one lore and can have a second attempt at casting a vital spell one per game. The Main advantage an Archmage has is the Book’s rerolls.

Curu,

Brewmaster_D was working on this thread before he stopped posting. As far as I remember you’ve got a couple of posts in there two.

Also, you might find this thread on Druchii.net interesting. It talks about a Universal battle game between a DE ETC Player using MSU with Lore of light and a Lv4 + the sacrificial dagger against Dalmar's Two Tower List.

[Curu Olannon]

1) I think Swordmasters are as lethal with Light as with most other lores. Timewarp helps them wound the enemy, Pha`s protect them in return. Speed of Light helps vs WS4 and less as well, which is pretty much the entire OK army for example. True it`s nowhere near Mindrazor, but Shadow has nothing that compares to Banishment either.
2) True, and its weakest point in my opinion. You miss out on so much by not taking 3 mages that you pretty much have to take them, which as you point out forces your hand with regards to the rest of the list.
3) True, I guess Teclis could also work but Everqueen makes casting boosted Timewarp for example trivial.

I followed Brew`s writings with great interest and miss his blogging, but even when he was active few, if any, others tried the same type of approach.

[Cold Phoenix]

I've yet to be convinced that the Teclis + Light Council is cost effective. The versions I've seen have 5-6 wizard levels on 3 mages, so you end up spending 775+ points without magic items, which puts you on a horrible position if you have bad magic rolls. Also, Teclis is quite capable of using any amount of power dice, so the mages are usually only there for the magic items they can carry and the boost to Teclis's banishment, unlike in an Everqueen list, when they can cast buffs with +5 or +6. On top of that Teclis is very squishy, unlike the Everqueen, who has WS6, S3 (for dwellers), T3 (so she isn't wounded on 2s by s4 and under), a 5++ Mundane and her special restore wounds each turn.

I really think Teclis works better as a 1 elf magic phase. He's got a scroll, the ability to ignore a miscast or add power dice and more than enough spells to generate threat, use all your power dice and enough spells to continue to work even if your opponent is lucky with 2 spell eater runes. He doesn't need any support and already cost enough on his own.

[John Rainbow]

Grenic did pretty well with a Teclis-based light coven before. He ran the big T, several mages and a bunker unit of WLs. The rest of the army was entirely chaff i.e. small units of Reavers, SHs and DPs along with eagles and 4 RBTs. It worked pretty well AFAIK. Obviously other builds are viable and I think there are a few guys here using Alarielle based light builds that look ok too. The obvious beauty of Teclis is the other spells that can also be pretty game-breaking in addition to Banishment.

[Baleanoon]

I've been having a blast using the Everqueen, mostly with lore of Light and banner. Its shocking the number of people who will let you have boosted timewarp forgetting the double movement. Realiably 2 dice pha's, and speed of light is also bananas. I use Silver Helms, White Lions and Phoenix guard as my combat blocks.

[Wicksi]

I've been having a blast using the Everqueen, mostly with lore of Light and banner. Its shocking the number of people who will let you have boosted timewarp forgetting the double movement. Realiably 2 dice pha's, and speed of light is also bananas. I use Silver Helms, White Lions and Phoenix guard as my combat blocks.

How many support casters do you go with this?

[Grenic]

I really think Teclis works better as a 1 elf magic phase. He's got a scroll, the ability to ignore a miscast or add power dice and more than enough spells to generate threat, use all your power dice and enough spells to continue to work even if your opponent is lucky with 2 spell eater runes. He doesn't need any support and already cost enough on his own.

My Teclis based Light Council list is a combination of points denial (Teclis, Light Council mages, and White Lions is over 50% of my 2500 point list), shooting heavy (40 bows, 4 Eagle Claws, and Reaver Bow), and MSU (the list has 11 drops + characters and 14 in game units). Opponents have to wade through all the chaff to get to my White Lions and the S7 banishment. To address the uber spells, I have two dispel scrolls.

As for casting, with double banishment, I really don't need to use 6 PD, typically it's 4 then 3.

Interesting comment about the Net spell vs war machines, definitely helpful against Bretts and Dwarfs.

[Baleanoon]

I've been having a blast using the Everqueen, mostly with lore of Light and banner. Its shocking the number of people who will let you have boosted timewarp forgetting the double movement. Realiably 2 dice pha's, and speed of light is also bananas. I use Silver Helms, White Lions and Phoenix guard as my combat blocks.

How many support casters do you go with this?

One level 1 Mage lore of light w/ khaine's ring of fury and dispel scroll. Usually just take Shem's.

[Sackree]

What I am finding that it really like about light is that it combines with our need for combined arms.

As an army we don't rely on one unit or a death star as much as other armies do and often need multiple charges and more than one unit. Light has so many bubble spells that it allows us to boost all the units in a combat at once, which is something no other lore can do.
The only other bubbled combat spells of the top of my head are glittering robes and soulblight.

The low casting values of the non bubbled spells also allow for it to be an effective lore on a lvl2 if necessary, I think it. Fits best on lvl 2's in a StarDragon list personally but that is just my opinion.

[Baleanoon]

What I am finding that it really like about light is that it combines with our need for combined arms.

As an army we don't rely on one unit or a death star as much as other armies do and often need multiple charges and more than one unit. Light has so many bubble spells that it allows us to boost all the units in a combat at once, which is something no other lore can do.
The only other bubbled combat spells of the top of my head are glittering robes and soulblight.

The low casting values of the non bubbled spells also allow for it to be an effective lore on a lvl2 if necessary, I think it. Fits best on lvl 2's in a StarDragon list personally but that is just my opinion.

Harmonic Convergence

[pk-ng]

@Curu - Light of Battle doesn't make you unbreakble. Break test isn't a leadership test.
@ Cold Phoenix - At a recent tournament this weekend I would of came 1st if i didn't screw up the last match. But still placed 4th. Teclis Light Council list is very powerful and I ran a similar list to Grenic.

[Curu Olannon]

Yes it is. It specifically says so under the break test section and under the BSB rules break test is listed as an example of leadership test. So yes, light of battle makes you auto-pass a break test

[pk-ng]

Yes it is. It specifically says so under the break test section and under the BSB rules break test is listed as an example of leadership test. So yes, light of battle makes you auto-pass a break test

Ahh interesting...well you learning something new everyday.
Very situational spell tho.

[Curu Olannon]

Yes indeed, which is the main problem of the spell: Setting up a unit for a pre-emptive cast is just not a good approach because if the spell is stopped then your entire plan could fall apart.

[J4far]

I think light of battle is best used as a "panic button" as opposed to something to plan around. Sometimes I find that, for various reasons, I end up with an unfavorable situation that I can wiggle out of the following turn *if* I hold. Even when the combat seems likely to go my way or is fairly even, it just takes a couple bad dice to completely destroy a unit from a failed break test (even with BSB rerolls I tend to fail all too important break tests far too often). Having the option of guaranteeing the unit won't run is sometimes enough, especially the last turn of the game if things are down to the wire.

[Jedra]

I've been a long time advocate/fan of this lore and used it many a times, rarely in a coven. Generally, I'd sum up my experience of Light by describing it as a very solid lore that requires you to be quite tactical with your magic use and how it fits with your army. It's not a flashy spell-to-win-the-game kind of thing.

I marginally preferred it in the old book, as some of the bubble spells require you to put your wizard in a place that could potentially be in harms way. However, the new book of hoeth works much better with light than the old (the old one was a little pointless).



Pros:

1) an archmage will likely have options for which spells to cast in every turn of the game (combination of long range power ups and some spells that are useful both in and out of combat)

2) Some nice minor buffs that make your units a bit more survivable (phas, speed of light), which is very useful as that's a major weakness for us

3) VERY good against war machines (again, a major weakness of ours)- Net, Pha's, Shem's, and to a lesser extent Timewarp all have good uses in this environment


Cons:

1) Not a lot of cross over with spells, meaning your enemy usually gets to choose which of your spells doesn't go through. This is especially a problem since the new book came out.

2) Not a lot to increase strength of hits, so tough/armoured opponents are still hard nuts to crack

3) A lot of spells require a good deal of planning and fiddling to use well - positioning your bubbles, planning a turn ahead etc.


Generally speaking I would rank the spells:

GREAT - If I roll it I'm keeping it
Pha's Protection
Speed of Light
Biruna's Timewarp

Dependent on the enemy
Net of Amyntok
Shem's Burning Gaze
Banishment

Probably going to drop
Light of Battle

[Casazzo]

Regarding the Spell "Net":

Do i understand it correctly, that enemy war machines are not able to shoot, because they auto-fail the strength test?

That would be great indeed.

[Jedra]

Yes!

War machines auto fail all stat tests except toughness and leadership

[Casazzo]

That has indeed grave consequences. Especially for MonsterMash-lists.

[Optimistic]

The question becomes is this lore worth taking outside of a coven and if so why?

While the lore is great at augmenting, it doesn't have as many augments as we might want. As a tomb king player every spell is awesome except for light of battle (lol already unbreakable) because it covers WS, Ini, and attack issues as well as durability through phas and net.

High Elves already have ASF, high WS, high Ini and can be pretty durable in CC. Are we getting the full mileage from the lore?

This is still what i consider to be the pressing question on Light, is it worth it outside of a coven? My opinion no, but others have had varying degrees of success, though i can't remember the last time I saw an elven lvl 4 mage on light, outside of a coven.

That has indeed grave consequences. Especially for MonsterMash-lists.

The problem with this, in my experience, is generating the spell. There's no real reliable way outside of multiple lvl 2's, i assume 2's here because any respectable monster mash list either has a dragon or frostheart mounted lord. Thankfully light also has Pha's, another great way to pick up shooting protection, but again you'll be stuck in that precarious position of trying to force through spells against a lvl 4, assuming you were able to generate the correct ones. Contrast this against heavens and its guaranteed iceshard, that's a spell which works wonders in nearly all scenarios and when applied to warmachines gives you that coin flip potential save.

[Curu Olannon]

See my most recent reports for some takes on monsters + light games

[Axiem]

The question becomes is this lore worth taking outside of a coven and if so why?

This is the questions; and my answer is no. I've been playing the Loremaster Light Coven variation a fair amount this edition and it's a blast to play and incredibly good in tournament play. However, if you're looking at taking only a Level 4 + 1 Mage setup, Light falls short of Heavens, Death, and even (sometimes) Shadow for versatility and utility.

While Light is good, the problem is it does share some redundancy with the rules our troops already have (mainly ASF, good WS, and Stubborn). This makes taking it on a single Level 4 not exactly the best use of points, especially if you get a bad spell generation.

If you're going for two Level Twos, you're almost always better off with High Magic, or a combination of Lores if you're looking for something specific. The only reason the mini-Light Council + Star Dragon list worked in the previous book was the Seerstaff and Annulian Crystal, which made for a Lord-Level magic phase both offensively and defensively. Since that's not an option anymore, I don't see this kind of build working as well as other setups, mainly the Helm Bus + High Mages combination.

Axiem

[Gondarion]

What really interests me in this topic is the question of whether Light is best as a support for a monster-led army. I've been thinking about what would be best to protect/boost my star dragon lord. I've leaned toward L2 High and L2 Beasts, but 2 L2's on Light would be very interesting as well.