Taking Ellyrian Reavers as a full unit?

[GrottoKnight]

I understand the rational behind taking 1-3 units of 5 Reavers in your army. But I ask, why does no one use a full unit of Reavers?

A unit of 10 or 15 Reavers can have an excellent impact. The Vanguard move, Free Reforms, and Fire after marching still have the same bonuses but with a beefier unit. The drawback is focused spells/shooting versus the multiple targets of MSU Reavers.

However the same goes for you positioning of this unit as MSU armies can be overwhelmed with movement problems due to terrain, the enemy, and their own units getting in the way.

A larger 10/15 unit of Reavers still gets to auto rally and move like smaller versions if they break from combat but still present a threat versus the 1-2 models left in a unit that started 5 strong (weak).

I look at units of full strength as 200-250 points roughly. 12/13/15 Reavers with bows and a standard is 238/257/295.

So lets try 12 strong 5 wide. You can move around and pepper with arrows (12 shots due to Martial Prowess) worrying opponents you will deny their ranks or injure them as well as just add enough support to another unit of yours looking to engage or already in combat. Then when YOU decide to strike you will have has 12 (MP)+5 attacks and the 12 will likely get to reroll, get a +1 S on the charge, and the horses 5 attacks are a nice bonus. Now obviously they do not want to take on AS of better than 4+.....your math hammer will show you that 10-15 Reavers on the charge can bust a unit on their own but anyone with better than a 4+ save is a NO. You are looking for WS 4 or less, T 4 or less, I 4 or less, 4+ or worse (but too many of those at 4 are bad too). So, goblin/rat/empire tend to be choice while Dwarfs are a bit too much (WS4/T4/I3/4+/5+)

CURIOUS WHAT OTHERS HAVE ENCOUNTERED giving the Reavers a bit more support -ing ranks

Let me know!

[Loriel]

I actually have considered this still never tried. I made this article way back http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=51921 where I compared our core choices roles and how would reavers work in similar role. For example steadfast deny. That is all theory hammer, but perhaps you could find some insight on the matter.

[Ferny]

What role would such a unit play? I played vs something similar with DE a couple of times, but it's just a super aggressive (soft) bus. Unsupported helms are weak but can atleast hold up for a while with armour. I think reavers would just go *puff* and disappear. Also, if you did this, what would the rest of your army look like. With (potentially) 335 core pts sunk into one reaver unit, what other core would you have? Shooting? Helms? Why? or more reavers for blocking? Do you now need eagles? Do you even have enough options to cover shooting (maybe in rare). I can't see any obvious answer to what role this sort of unit would serve - though I could have missed one/loads!

[RedPanda]

Well the points you save from taking the Reavers over the Silver Helms can afford you an extra unit.
Pretty much the big unit of reavers will be hitting the opponents flanks, which the other unit will need to either redirect/open/block anything from hitting the reavers.

Truthfully someone needs to try that is familar with calvary armies it to really give it a good review. I am thinking like an Wood Elf that uses calvary alot needs to try it out being they are use to having no armor and have fast calvary.

[Pablo]

Except reavers are a poor mans dark rider and die easier to magic and shooting.

[Findolfin]

I tried that in earlier games but I did not have as many games under my belt as I do now.

What worked:
- A 15 strong models is very deceptive in the deployment phase, it is not so obvious what role that unit will have and despite it`s size, it will get through any larger than 3" gaps in the opponent line. It can mess up your opponent deployment.
- It is very hard to prevent from reaching warmachines and as it presents a large target, will draw their fire early on. Spells might have a chance at taking it out it but normal shooting will struggle to repostion. Remember that it is fast cavaly and can be in their backline by turn 1 ( especially if you go first ).
- Denying rank bonus and even steadfast on some units through flank/ rear charges
- Keeping it`s point value

What did not worked:
- On it`s own, it`s still helpless vs stubborn and unbreakable units.
- It`s vulnerable to characters, even if you hit the flank, the `make way!` will mess you up.
- I felt I was getting more out of 2 or 3 units than a single one for board control
- The cases where denying rank bonus ( and even steadfast ) would have mattered were not plenty.
- Could not join any of our characters to it without losing their abilities.
- At the end of the day, a similar sized heavy cavalry bus will accomplish more in combat and from any angle ( With characters able to join ).

[pk-ng]

Since you've stated alot of the Pros lets state some Cons

Cons:
Large footprint
AS 5+, T3 Elves
Won't deny ranks as you need 2 full ranks (killing 3-6 elves before combat isn't that hard).
12 S3 isn't anything to worry about especially with alot of 1+ in the meta
Cannot have characters in the unit for support (unlike WE and/or DE).

Facts:
Nothing auto rallies. Unless you cast a spell.

[Andrew_uk]

I agree with pk-ng. Reavers are one of the best units in our army (tactically speaking) but consider the points investment vs what they offer with each set of setup options...

5 with bows/musician - cheap - very good
5 with spears/musician/banner - cheap - very good
More models/more command - significantly more expensive - tactical gains are not proportional

[Eltherion2]

with toughness 3 and a 5+ armour save I wouldn't be investing in large units of reavers

[RedPanda]

SilverHelms are also S3, so they are about equal.

For a bus with a full character lineup, why not Reavers? In combat most of the hits are going to hit your front line anyway ie your nobles/princes.

[pk-ng]

S5 on the charge at least. Which can clear alot of units up quite easily
Helms are 2+ AS compared with 5+ AS of reavers is a big difference.
And incorrect in regards to hitting you noble/prince. If I was up against reavers I would obviously hit them vs the noble / prince as it's easy combat res. It'll depend what I have in the unit you're hitting and my SCR.
Remember we aren't brets so when we reduce frontage to less than 5 we won't have ranks therefore it'll be hard for use to break the enemy after the initial round.

[Prince of Spires]

I think the main question here is why would you?

If you take bows on the reavers and shields on the SH, then a unit of 12 costs 48 points more. So you could get about 3 extra reavers compared to the SH. For those 3 reavers you get a 2+ armour save vs a 5+ and an extra point of S on the charge.

The 2+ vs 5+ armour save makes quite a difference. Vs something silly like clanrats reavers take 1.6 wounds from 10 attacks, SH 0.8. Same against small arms fire.

And of course, one thing to keep in mind is that reavers lose their biggest advantage over SH when you put a character in them. They stop being fast cavalry.

Rod

[Andrew_uk]

The 2+ vs 5+ armour save makes quite a difference. Vs something silly like clanrats reavers take 1.6 wounds from 10 attacks, SH 0.8. Same against small arms fire.

Hi Rod your maths is off slightly. Vs strength 3 the reavers are 4 times more likely to fail their armour save so would actually take 3.3 wounds against 10 strength 3 attacks, hitting on 5s. If you're building a combat cavalry core unit it has to be helms.

Though as I say 5 reavers with a musician are amazing

[Orien]

Reavers should never have more points invested in them than necessary, unit sizes of 5 are optimal for me. I will occasionally add in bows but I usually run them naked barring a musician.

They are re-directors and chaff for me, and they do a great job of it, if they live to the end of the game its because ive tabled the opponent. Their sacrifice is always a huge part of my game plan but the point is, they are purely sacrificial in my eyes

[Prince of Spires]

Hi Rod your maths is off slightly.

oops...

Anyway, the idea remains I think. Just more so.

Rod

[Andrew_uk]

Hi Rod your maths is off slightly.

oops...

Anyway, the idea remains I think. Just more so.

Rod

Definitely - 4 times more likely to fail a save!!!!!!!!!