Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

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gaz
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#91 Post by gaz »

I have to say, after reformatting the relevant tables (see above) my opinions of SM relative to WL is improving (in CC at least).

When you consider a part of the kill ratio tables where SM have a significant advantage (T3-4, WS5, AS 4+ or worse) there are a lot of elite infantry units that do fall into that category.

In large units, WL do instead have a significant advantage against most heavy/monstrous cav and T5 stuff. However, if that heavy/monstrous cav has T3 or WS5, then the difference is almost negligible. So WL aren't even a significant improvement against units like Skull Crushers, Bretonnian Paladin walls, Scar Vets on cold ones or any elf cavalry. (not factoring in pottential armor RR for Paladins of Scar Vets). The fact that WL are only barely better at handling Skull Crushers was somewhat surprising to me.

On the whole, I'm now thinking of med-large SM blocks as similar to Grimgor for OnG. You can take him and have a really solid CC unit, but you will have a fairly serious vulnerability against certain, reasonably common lists.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#92 Post by Eltherion2 »

Well one thing making the WL's popular is their stubborn rule even if they lose to Skullcrushers they will likely stick around longer.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#93 Post by Domine Nox »

gaz wrote:On the whole, I'm now thinking of med-large SM blocks as similar to Grimgor for OnG. You can take him and have a really solid CC unit, but you will have a fairly serious vulnerability against certain, reasonably common lists.
It falls into a certain category but that is where something like the Everqueen comes into play. Everqueen + BotWD in that unit gives them Ward Saves against magical and non-magical attacks, allowing them to go to town. But Special Characters are taboo at many tournament scenes and so I'm sure this approach will be considered passe by Curu.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#94 Post by Prince of Spires »

Of course the everqueen gives the same benefits to WL as to SM. And you could argue that she benefits WL even more, since SM already have a ward vs shooting. And going from no ward to 5+ is a bigger advantage then going from 6+ to 5+. And it is of course a unit that doesn't want to run into the BotWD...

Thank you for the tables Gaz. They confirm my thoughts a bit. When you go for small to medium sized units, then SM have the upper hand against most things you would expect to encounter. Which at least is a redeeming quality of SM. While WL are tough to get points off since you need to kill all of them (though I have failed ld 8 tests before...), when you only have 5 to 7 left they don't pose too much of a threat anymore. SM on the other hand remain a scary unit for lots of things simply because they can still put out a lot of pain.

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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#95 Post by Curu Olannon »

Of course special characters are fine if you play in a meta where they are allowed. Besides the Everqueen and Teclis being popular though, I haven`t seen them dominate anything either. The last one I heard of trying something like this was Furion @SCGT I believe it was (where he brought Teclis). He wasn`t impressed.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#96 Post by cptcosmic »

what I like about SM or WL is that they are cheaper than PG. SM are also very effective in small units. when I take two medium sized or small SM units I will have plenty of points remaining for chaff and other support units and when one SM units gets evaporated on the way into combat it does not hurt that much and the remaining SM still pose a threat.

a single PG block on the other hand is like any other block, easy to stall with massed chaff. In my local area anyone plays with huge amounts of chaff, something that even 4 RBT cannot deal with, having a single PG block that can absorb damage just does not work there because it will never be able to play out its strength.

as already mentioned 3x reavers and 2x eagles are not that expensive, any army with SM can include them without gimping the army too much and that much chaff will survive any serious shooting phase long enough to be able block a unit that your SM do not want to face.

just saying.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#97 Post by SpellArcher »

The thing is, even winning a strong tournament is not a definitive proof of a list's overall strength. It could for example be awful against half the armies out there but because of the draw simply avoid them for five games. There are a couple of examples I can think of where drawing multiple WoC opponents has seen a list good against them win a very strong tournament (SCGT2013 and US Masters). While I'm not saying those lists weren't good, there were arguably stronger lists in those events. I also don't see that the High Magic SM set-up has that many bad match-ups. There were several Everqueen lists at SCGT this year. I'm pretty sure Mark Wildman (England ETC) finished top 20 and Sami Michaels top 10.

It is also key to differentiate between units with World Dragon and those without. This banner changes everything in a lot of combats. I would guess that a PG-star list would rely on it's magic/shooting against a chaff-heavy list and go for a moderate win (maybe using Spears+characters more offensively?).
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#98 Post by Curu Olannon »

Very good point, SA, which I think highlights 2 important things: 1) lists preferably need multiple strong showings and 2) lists that cannot even achieve this, given your elaboration above which I agree with, we should be extra sceptical about.

As for High Magic + SM setup having bad matchups, it depends on the rest of the list of course. I could see Empire as a serious problem for example, shooty Ogres and Dark Elves, along with other HE lists, Skaven and probably a few more.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#99 Post by Domine Nox »

rdghuizing wrote:Of course the everqueen gives the same benefits to WL as to SM. And you could argue that she benefits WL even more, since SM already have a ward vs shooting. And going from no ward to 5+ is a bigger advantage then going from 6+ to 5+. And it is of course a unit that doesn't want to run into the BotWD...
Yes, the ward is also improvable through High Magic. I feel the SMs benefit more than the Lions because yes they have a 6+ ward, but that's only from non-magical shooting whereas the WLs have a good AS vs shooting. So even that 1pt improvement vastly helps their survivability (plus the bonuses from High Magic) which allows their damage output to take to the fore. And I'd rather have the SM build like this meet BotWD than WLs as the increased attacks and WS of the SMs give them a better chance of getting past that 2++ where S has no bearing at all.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#100 Post by Prince of Spires »

Actually, WL have exactly the same armour save vs magical shooting as SM have. The Lion cloak entry specifies: " Models wearing a lion cloak add +2 to their armour save against non-magical shooting attacks" (emphasis mine).

The only situation where the lion cloak works and the SM save doesn't is against non-magical templates. Where you have to wonder if you get the cloak save anyway (depending on the S of course).

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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#101 Post by SpellArcher »

Curu Olannon wrote:Very good point, SA, which I think highlights 2 important things: 1) lists preferably need multiple strong showings and 2) lists that cannot even achieve this, given your elaboration above which I agree with, we should be extra sceptical about.
I think it boils down to what we are aiming to do. If we want to say "Which lists have proved themselves to be strong?" then I agree we look at multiple tournament results, then we look at other games like ETC, then we look at non-tourney games with battle reports, all the while bearing in mind the strength of the players involved and the match-ups. We could look at the Crossroads list and conclude that it is likely a strong list but need more info (the player could have done very well with it elsewhere or not, we don't know) to make a solid judgement.

There are also lists that simply haven't been tested enough, at least for other players to make their minds up about. Seredain's Swordmaster/High Magic list is one such. He has played 20 games with it, rates it. We know him to be a good player (and list builder) with a decent track record. So I would say we can put this into the 'promising but not proven' category. Ie it provides a decent hypothesis. In contrast I could just come up with an army of almost all Spears with no magic for example. This has less claim to being a promising list than Seredain's.

I also feel that this is not an all or nothing thing. We can say that such and such list has given more evidence of being a strong list than another list but this is not cut and dried (being dependent on meta, infinite tourney results etc.). It's a sliding scale.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#102 Post by Wicksi »

Just to comment on the charts (Huge thanks btw) this means that swordmasters well in combat is better then Lions vs

Elvish cavalry (cold ones / Dragon princes)
Any T3 infantry
Any T4 infantry with less then 3+ armor
Anything WS5 except for 1+ reroll (or T7 1+)

This really covers majority of what you will se on the battlefield.
including but not limited to (not including characters)
Everything you can face in a Empire army save for Demigryphs, knights, steamtank
Everything you can face in a O&G list except for Giant, Arachnarok, (boar boys are about the same).
Everything you can face in a Dark elf army except kardashian / hydra.

The list goes on (And I might have missed out on some units but I'm sure I made my point)

Now I'm very bad with making charts but I would greatly appreciate a chart how they survive vs none magical bs shooting (how many more % casualties swordmasters take)

Best regards
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#103 Post by SpellArcher »

Wicksi wrote:Now I'm very bad with making charts but I would greatly appreciate a chart how they survive vs none magical bs shooting (how many more 5 casualties swordmasters take)
If this is done, I suggest doing it naked and then the Shield of Saphery versions.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#104 Post by Curu Olannon »

Wicksi wrote: Now I'm very bad with making charts but I would greatly appreciate a chart how they survive vs none magical bs shooting (how many more % casualties swordmasters take)
Wicksi
No armour reduction (High Elf Archers for example) - Lions save 2/3 which is roughly 67%, SM save 4/9 which is roughly 44%. Lions save roughly 50% more than SM.
-1 armour reduction (Dark Elf Darkshards for example) - Lions save 1/2 which is 50%. SM save roughly 30%. Lions save roughly 60% more than SM.
-2 armour reduction (Leadbelchers for example) - Lions save 1/3 which si roughly 33%. SM save 1/6 which is roughly 17%. Lions save twice as much as SM.
-3 armour reduction (Organ gun without runes, though you`ll likely never encounter one) - Both save 1/6.
Stuff ignoring armour - SM save 1/6, Lions save nothing. The only ones I can think of which have this ability is Waywatchers, but they`re better against SM with multiple shots than against Lions with single shots, so even this matchup favours the Lions.

In my experience the vast majority of armies out there fall into one of the first 3 categories, where Lions are tons more survivable.

@SA - I agree, it`s a continuum. Your point about "potential" was one I made a few pages back I believe: basically a list whose construction is solid and well-thought out, but simply hasn`t played enough games/tough enough opposition just yet. Based on what you say I`ll agree that it sounds like Seredain`s list would fall into this category. What remains then is simply to convince him to go back to high magic + SM + BOTWD instead of PG or whatever his list is currently at and make him go to another GT :D

The true potential I see with this setup, as opposed to Lions, is their ability to better cleave apart units that Lions just don`t want to engage, Skaven for example or even Executioners (which will leave Lions severely depleted even if they win). I like the idea of SM + High AM + Bus + shooting, my only question is how it compares to say bus + wl + frostie (such as what Furion`s running) or even bus + pg + loremaster + shooting (which, admittedly, is untested yet as far as I know).
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RedPanda
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#105 Post by RedPanda »

I think if they gave White Lions access to their cloaks in melee would help immensely just not as big as the +3 armor vs ranged, but a meager +1 in melee would be good enough being once in melee they are not wearing it like a suit so it will act kinda like a shield just in cloak format.

If you think about it, think about punching a piece of fabric that is freestanding/hanging (not tight but loose) it kinda absorbs some of the damage before you go all the way through to hit the target, now make it a fur hide imagine how much harder you have to swing at it before you do the correct amount of damage to pierce the armor (not counting the movement of the person in the armor)
Arrow's suffer the same thing that their kinetic energy is greatly reduced to where it will literally only glance the armor (in the East silk does this perfectly just it is super expensive, modern day many archery ranges that uses a mesh to prevent arrows from hitting the wall with indoor ranges, the west used cotton as a way to reduce some of the energy (tho that was a byproduct of them trying to protect vs bludgeoning weapons)

That and they need to make it work against magic arrows/weapons being if you think about it if a magic weapon will go right through the cloak, it should go right through armor/shields.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#106 Post by J4far »

One thing that I'm not sure has been pointed out or not, SM still hit on a 4+ against everything Mark of Nurgle, whereas the WL will be hitting on a 5+. I'm not sure how often that comes up but the WoC players in my area all mark everything with Nurgle so those extra hits are really nice combined with more attacks than the WL.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#107 Post by Curu Olannon »

So SA, based on your reasoning I`ve tried to come up with a list that could be interesting to try out. The core idea is combined arms, with a focus on defense (so that the only ones you have to push against are true gunlines):
Prince on barded steed with Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm = 272
Archmage L4 High, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB on barded steed with Obsidian Lodestone, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour, Lance = 176
Mage L2 Death on steed with Dispel Scroll = 155
Characters 913

13 Silver Helms, Full Command 329
20 Archers, Full Command 210
5 Reavers 80
Core 619

28 Swordmasters, Full Command, BOTWD = 444
4 Repeaters = 280
9 sisters = 126
Special and rare 850

Total = 2382
It`s a basic draft, I`m sure you could juggle the details around. Anyway, while I agree it has potential, I fail to see how it`s better than other configurations around, for example mounting the AM for Death (leaving Swordmasters very vulnerable) or simply taking WL instead.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#108 Post by Ptolemy »

Mostly because I wanted to paint them, I've run a unit of 24 swordmasters for a few months now in a cav bus list. An AM on life sits in them too.

They work great, I have no issues with them at all. Shooting them is hard because of life buffs and regrowth. They can really brutalize quickly stuff WLs get slowed down on.

I realize life benefits WLs too. But Im not convinced its an obvious choice to be made
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#109 Post by Curu Olannon »

Haven`t seen you post anything game-wise lately Ptolemy (though lots of exceptional P&M work which I referenced just yesterday actually), care to share some light on your recent adventures? I find the choice of Life more intriguing than Swordmasters to be honest, as I feel the Lore is very good in some matchups, but utterly useless in others.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#110 Post by Grenic »

I've been following this thread for a while now and for me the debate between Sword Masters and White Lions boils down to play style.

If you prefer to use larger blocks of infantry, then the decision is not between Sword Masters and White Lions, but instead Phoenix Guard and White Lions as the primary block. Sword Masters would only come into focus as the secondary block and then as an alternative to the unit that was not selected as the primary unit.

If you prefer a MSU style, then you would really only have one primary combat unit, which like the larger block style, means Sword Masters are challenged to compete against the Ward Save + Fear of the Phoenix Guard and the better AS, Strength + Stubborn of the White Lions. The only real role I can see for Sword Masters in an MSU list is as 5 or 6 model chaff units. Heck for a total spend of 65 points you can deploy a WS6, S5, 8 attack, M5, 5W model on effectively a 60x40 mm base. Opponents that ignore such a unit do so at their own risk.

If you are looking to deploy multiple medium sized blocks (say 3 units of 15 to 20), then likely Sword Masters would come into focus. However, in this type of list they may only be used in a chaff role as the MSU like feel such a list may have. Up to this point in 8th edition I have not really seen this type of list deployed and I'm not sure if it is even viable.

If you play a Silver Helm cavalry bus list, then the the choice will depend on your views of what you are looking for from your other units. If looking for a secondary combat block, then it's likely that the Sword Masters would be an option. However, as most opponents will prefer to allocate their S3/S4 shooting attacks at targets with a lower armour save than the Silver Helm bus, the higher survival rate of the White Lions and Phoenix Guard under this type of shooting would likely edge out the Sword Masters. I also don't really see a role for Sword Masters as a chaff unit in a bus + combat infantry block list due to the need to use points in other places and Great Eagles would be a better chaff choice and at a lower cost.

If your play style is Chaffmaster Light Counsel style (which is my preferred style), Sword Masters really can't compete against White Lions as the lone mini combat unit. In fact for this type of play style I'm not sure that Phoenix Guard can displace the White Lions due to their higher per model cost and the need to squeeze in the Crown of Command. These aspects results in a Phoenix Guard unit being materially smaller than the equivalent pointed White Lion unit and can be too easily overrun or Dreaded 13thed off the board. I do think Sword Masters could be deployed as a chaff unit, but would only be added after getting in all the desired units of Reavers, Great Eagles, Silver Helms/Dragon Princes, and Sisters.

Looking over the various styles of play, it would seem that Sword Masters have really been relegated to also ran status when viewed from a swap Unit A for Unit B basis. However, I would not be surprised if there is not some sort of competitive build based around Sword Masters, it's just likely that it would be so optimized to offset the challenges faced by Sword Masters that it would not really work as well with either Phoenix Guard or White Lions taking their place in the list.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#111 Post by Rommel44 »

Grenic wrote:I've been following this thread for a while now and for me the debate between Sword Masters and White Lions boils down to play style.

If you prefer to use larger blocks of infantry, then the decision is not between Sword Masters and White Lions, but instead Phoenix Guard and White Lions as the primary block. Sword Masters would only come into focus as the secondary block and then as an alternative to the unit that was not selected as the primary unit.

If you prefer a MSU style, then you would really only have one primary combat unit, which like the larger block style, means Sword Masters are challenged to compete against the Ward Save + Fear of the Phoenix Guard and the better AS, Strength + Stubborn of the White Lions. The only real role I can see for Sword Masters in an MSU list is as 5 or 6 model chaff units. Heck for a total spend of 65 points you can deploy a WS6, S5, 8 attack, M5, 5W model on effectively a 60x40 mm base. Opponents that ignore such a unit do so at their own risk.

If you are looking to deploy multiple medium sized blocks (say 3 units of 15 to 20), then likely Sword Masters would come into focus. However, in this type of list they may only be used in a chaff role as the MSU like feel such a list may have. Up to this point in 8th edition I have not really seen this type of list deployed and I'm not sure if it is even viable.

If you play a Silver Helm cavalry bus list, then the the choice will depend on your views of what you are looking for from your other units. If looking for a secondary combat block, then it's likely that the Sword Masters would be an option. However, as most opponents will prefer to allocate their S3/S4 shooting attacks at targets with a lower armour save than the Silver Helm bus, the higher survival rate of the White Lions and Phoenix Guard under this type of shooting would likely edge out the Sword Masters. I also don't really see a role for Sword Masters as a chaff unit in a bus + combat infantry block list due to the need to use points in other places and Great Eagles would be a better chaff choice and at a lower cost.

If your play style is Chaffmaster Light Counsel style (which is my preferred style), Sword Masters really can't compete against White Lions as the lone mini combat unit. In fact for this type of play style I'm not sure that Phoenix Guard can displace the White Lions due to their higher per model cost and the need to squeeze in the Crown of Command. These aspects results in a Phoenix Guard unit being materially smaller than the equivalent pointed White Lion unit and can be too easily overrun or Dreaded 13thed off the board. I do think Sword Masters could be deployed as a chaff unit, but would only be added after getting in all the desired units of Reavers, Great Eagles, Silver Helms/Dragon Princes, and Sisters.

Looking over the various styles of play, it would seem that Sword Masters have really been relegated to also ran status when viewed from a swap Unit A for Unit B basis. However, I would not be surprised if there is not some sort of competitive build based around Sword Masters, it's just likely that it would be so optimized to offset the challenges faced by Sword Masters that it would not really work as well with either Phoenix Guard or White Lions taking their place in the list.
He makes a lot of good points, as the bottom line is: It Depends on the type of list the playeris trying to run, and it it also depends on what the player likes to run, competitiveness be damned. But one factor I think that is overlooked is that a persons list can be determined by the opponents a player will face on a regular basis. Thats another factor that is commonly overlooked.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#112 Post by Ben E. Violent »

Another thing you could add into he equation is which unit is scarier to the opposing general and which unit does he not want to engage with his varying unit types?

Example: Swordmasters look scary to high model count, low armor/toughness mass troops. White Lions are more scary to higher armor save models.

And what types of units are scarier to us, has fewer answers for us, and is more important to counter in our lists from the get go?

Also, which will we see? Ex: It is easy to say that Swordmasters are better at slaying big blocks of skaven. But, how many skaven hordes will we see compared to high armored targets of priority?

And, one more thing: Are we targeting those high armor targets with our bolt throwers or moving in to engage them?
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#113 Post by RedPanda »

Also add in what point limit are you playing?

Then you also need to add what type of roll each will be doing, then their weakness and strengeths in that role, then also knowledge of their strength and weaknesses for other roles that popup that they have to engage or cannot avoid, also then add in any magic items/banners the unit have and heros and magic buffing them and any hexes for that matter.

It so variable it is a pointless debate, if it does not work then switch to the other unit for a while then come back after you get more experience with the other unit.
Being our melee infantry pretty much are similar to each other both core and elite infantry, just with certain quirks in strengths and weaknesses, and after you play you know what you want like 'oh I want more attacks or strength, or I want stubborn or ward' etc
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#114 Post by Rexhavoc »

As much as I love Swordmasters (and use them on occasion) White Lions simply have more uses in an all-comers list. These are the reasons I take them over SM's
A) They are even if you compare them model to model...SM's (2 Str5 attacks, WS6!, 6++Jedi save vs shooting)....WL's (1 Str6 attks, 3+ AR save vs shooting, Stuborn) - all for 13 pts. If you look at them as a unit though the SM's become less valuable for the points. With supporting attack and martial prowess rules in units over 15 models SM's only have 33% more attacks. You're no longer comparing 1 Str6 vs 2 Str5. It's 15 Str6 attacks vs 20 Str 5. I'd rather have the Str6 and I don't want to be paying for extra attacks that I'm not getting.
B) 3+ AR vs shooting is far superior to 6++ ward vs shooting. I know you mentioned they are the same vs Iron Drakes (Str5 AP) but mass shooting at that caliber is a rarity. anything less and WL's take it.
C) Both SM's and WL's are great elite infantry. They both can stand against most large blocks of infantry OR heavy cav and Monsters. IMO SM's tend to be slightly better vs Infantry where WL's tend to do better vs Hvy Cav, MC, and Monsters. The problem with the SM's Role is that it overlaps with the capabilities of the Phoenix Guard. With ASF (at Init6!), Str4, Martial Prowess, & Fear PG are nearly as good as SM's in the anti-infantry role AND they are far more durable. Especially since you can afford to give them the razor standard instead of the BoWD. Against ASF infantry I would even say PG are superior to SM's. WL's can make up for the PG's inability to damage high T/AR, SM's cannot. For those reasons I think WL's and PG compliment each other far better than a SM/PG combo.

Just my two cents. Hopefully in 9th edition models can get more than one supporting attack. That would put SM's back on par with WL's.
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