Flying Circus: Annointed, Star Prince, Moon AM or Caradryan?

[Ferny]

I've seen a few flying circus lists and have even given it a brief go myself with 4 frosties. Recently there's been a topic asking "two frosties or bust", some lists with dual frosties, Curu making the shift back to Stardragon and a suggestion that fast, hard and reasonably tanky monster lists might be one of the things HE are uniquely good at.

So on that principle I wanted to see what peoples experiences were with different list options. I'm assuming as baseline no comp, 2,400 and that Rare will include double frosthearts for target saturation, cannon-ball catching, triple t-stomps and maximum force concentration, although I wonder whether Curu and others might go 4xRBT (and possibly 1xfrostheart)?

Comparisons: Annointed and Star Dragon Prince
Both take up the entire lord level slot, so no Lv4 caster. Star Dragon gives Ld10 bubble and packs more grunt, but both the rider and the mount are more vulnerable to cannons (and to a lesser extent magic). It's also stubborn for free if you take the banner and stay close. Annointed on frosty is more cannon resiliant (or at any rate, more cannon variable!), more resilient generally, but less all-out offensive. It still gets thunderstomps though and is a pretty nasty monster...

Question: do they fill the same role? If not, what are their roles and how do they differ in their delivery?

Comparison: Moon AM (Death or High probably, possibly Beasts or Life?) with Annointed/Star Dragon
This gets a Lv4 in and a 'normal issue' dragon. Mage kit is probably Book and 4++, but might include golden crown to catch one cannonball. High for ward, Life for lifebloom, Death for mobile death caster, beasts for combat...

I see this as having the same basic drawbacks as the Dragon Mage, but writ large: the (better) mage doesn't want to be in combat but the (better) dragon does. But by comparison to the Prince on Sun Dragon, the Moon dragon which so wants to be in combat is worse (as is the AM), although we do gain Lv4 magic on a dragon delivery system (which is all the prince is anyway).

I'm not sure how he compares to the annointed on frosty because I'm less clear on his role: in all more vulnerable, slightly worse damage output (though conflict as to whether he wants to be in combat), but gaining Lv4 caster.

Comparison: Caradryan&Ashtari vs Annointed on Frostheart
Purely stats-wise, Caradryan loses out on WS7, W3 and I8, but critically still gets the same strength, attacks and leadership. He also loses out on a pip of MR and ItP, but gains flaming D3W attacks, and his bird has an extra attack too.

By contrast the Annointed gets a 100pts magic item allowance, and this is the big perk. I'm not sure what the best options here are: dawnstone+enchanted shield would make him super tanky, with 70pts available for +3S or A or whatever (but with only 3 base attacks he's no Prince). I ran mine with crown of command so that he could tarpit until help or kingdom come arrive, depending which come first, but I'm not sure that's optimal. I guess this comes back to question 1 - what exactly is his role?

But the key benefit of Caradryan over Annointed is that it gives you the points for a Lv 4 caster and you still have points available for a BSB. In principle you could instead go for Annointed or Star Dragon for Lords, but then you're restricted to having either only a BSB or a Lv2 scroll caddy, but not both. When I tried 4 frosties I found that there wasn't a whole lot of synergy from them, though a dragon might work better (still suffers from caddy or BSB but not both though).

Other Hero Options:
I've ignored the Caledor Dragon Mage as too 'in between': not enough grunt to be a true dragon (thus warranted in the flying circus), not tanky enough to be a frostheart, and not enough magic to be a Lv4 (although a Lv4 could be included alongside him). If anyone can make the case for him though, please do!

Likewise I've ignored the Griffon Noble on similar grounds: neither tanky nor grunty enough.

[Curu Olannon]

TL;DR - it depends. I don`t have enough experience with these types of builds, but a few things are pretty much set in stone: no RBTs means the list is stronger on the offense, but also less flexible.

The best variation of the list I have seen in action is SD + Frostheart + 4 RBT + 4 heroes (2 nobles, 2 high magic mages) with BOTWD and stubborn in a large bus with helms. This list is very flexible and rarely gives up big points. Even if the Star Dragon dies initially, I`ve seen this list win. If the Prince survives, it can become very hard to take points from. The strength of this list is baffling: despite taking the star dragon it does indeed compete heavily in all phases of the game. It is also fast enough to quickly adapt to a new situation and can utilize its speed against slower opponents (pretty much every other opponent in the book).

Of course by swapping the RBTs for a second Frostheart the list is even faster and stronger. I don`t know if this is a better choice, but I do know that this drastically reduces board control. Thus, a huge Helmbus is harder to get into the right combats, and if the Star Dragon dies you have fewer tools to gain back points with. I am unsure if this configuration calls for a re-thinking of the rest of the points available, and if so, what to do with them (mainly heroes). You could squeeze in a Dragonmage (scroll + enchanted shield + L2 + dragon armour = 425) alongside a BOTWD BSB on steed (172), which gives you 4 flying thunderstompers, of which 2 are stubborn. A smaller Helmbus with more reavers (all with Champions for eating the Prince`s challenges) could possibly work. This is a very all-out list though, and as opposed to the variant described above, it only competes in movement + shooting. Dragonmage is decent, but lore of Fire is inflexible and the Flaming Sword is largely ineffective since you don`t have any units to truly benefit from it (apart from fighting regen stuff). Yet another option is Caradryan on Frostheart and a mounted L2, but this leaves you without a BSB (and thus no BOTWD). No magic is a suicide approach, even just having the scroll is vital).

As for the question at hand, the Star Dragon wins without a doubt. It is so amazingly strong and taking multiple Frosthearts grant diminishing returns. Besides, having a stubborn dragon is really huge. You don`t get this with any Frosthearts.

The case for the Archmage is quite simple, actually. A mobile Death caster is extremely powerful. Take him with a 4++. Bring the Firemage and a BSB with BOTWD. Firemage takes scroll and enchanted shield. The rest of the army can be configured as you please. Whether or not you choose to engage the Archmage just depends on the situation: you don`t give up points before both rider + mount is dead and you still have 2 stubborn dragons. As with all Dragon lists, it suffers from polarized matchups such as gunlines. Apart from other Dragon lists however, an L4 death mage has a really terrible potential against gunlines in the shape of Purple Sun. Brutal, as you can threaten the gunline from outside LoS and even present a major threat when you do stick your head out.

I still have hopes for our Griffon, but it remains to be seen. My idea is basically based on the initial list presented here. Instead of strong magic, I want even more flexibility movement-wise as the Frostheart is often too strong to be "wasted" on support-ish units. I do believe that no sane person will target the Griffon while the SD + Phoenix are still around, so I`m hoping the context of the list will provide the flexibility needed. The big question is whether the loss of a second mage is worth it.

[Mist]

For the dragon mage question I asked it a little while back, and came to the conclusion (with the help of some other members), that an eagle mage would give better results, as the mage gets better stats becoming one with the the eagle and gets the ward save TofProt for a 4+. This way is cheaper, more survivable, and still does not want to be in combat.
I think we need a 4th level mage in our armies, or a couple of 2nd levels for protection.
It all comes down to if you thing you need more punch in the hand to hand phase or not and only play testing will tell you that.

[Ferny]

Thanks for your comments - loads there to digest.

As for the question at hand, the Star Dragon wins without a doubt. It is so amazingly strong and taking multiple Frosthearts grant diminishing returns. Besides, having a stubborn dragon is really huge. You don`t get this with any Frosthearts.

Minor point, but I played two games with a Stubborn hat annointed on frosty so it can be achieved...I suspect this wasn't an optimal load-out, but he'd still be a lot more resilient than your prince, albeit much less hitty. I agree that there's diminishing returns from multiple frosthearts though, that's why I'm tempted towards dragons for characters...it's worth noting that the pull to frosties isn't their powers per se but their native ward (shrug off cannonballs on a 5+) and the MR isn't too shabby either. I just don't know whether their offensive output cuts it?

[Ferny]

For the dragon mage question I asked it a little while back, and came to the conclusion (with the help of some other members), that an eagle mage would give better results, as the mage gets better stats becoming one with the the eagle and gets the ward save TofProt for a 4+. This way is cheaper, more survivable, and still does not want to be in combat.
I think we need a 4th level mage in our armies, or a couple of 2nd levels for protection.
It all comes down to if you thing you need more punch in the hand to hand phase or not and only play testing will tell you that.

I've just looked it up and it seems we can't take eagle mages in 8th, although we can take eagle Archmages...making a Lv4 Death Eagle a tempted proposition. However, (possibly) unlike the griffon BSB, this *might* be an enticing target for cannonballs. Still, an interesting option in any list, and alongside Caradryan and Frosties for sure.

[Ferny]

TL;DR - it depends. I don`t have enough experience with these types of builds, but a few things are pretty much set in stone: no RBTs means the list is stronger on the offense, but also less flexible.

The best variation of the list I have seen in action is SD + Frostheart + 4 RBT + 4 heroes (2 nobles, 2 high magic mages) with BOTWD and stubborn in a large bus with helms. This list is very flexible and rarely gives up big points. Even if the Star Dragon dies initially, I`ve seen this list win. If the Prince survives, it can become very hard to take points from. The strength of this list is baffling: despite taking the star dragon it does indeed compete heavily in all phases of the game. It is also fast enough to quickly adapt to a new situation and can utilize its speed against slower opponents (pretty much every other opponent in the book).

Of course by swapping the RBTs for a second Frostheart the list is even faster and stronger. I don`t know if this is a better choice, but I do know that this drastically reduces board control. Thus, a huge Helmbus is harder to get into the right combats, and if the Star Dragon dies you have fewer tools to gain back points with. I am unsure if this configuration calls for a re-thinking of the rest of the points available, and if so, what to do with them (mainly heroes). You could squeeze in a Dragonmage (scroll + enchanted shield + L2 + dragon armour = 425) alongside a BOTWD BSB on steed (172), which gives you 4 flying thunderstompers, of which 2 are stubborn. A smaller Helmbus with more reavers (all with Champions for eating the Prince`s challenges) could possibly work. This is a very all-out list though, and as opposed to the variant described above, it only competes in movement + shooting. Dragonmage is decent, but lore of Fire is inflexible and the Flaming Sword is largely ineffective since you don`t have any units to truly benefit from it (apart from fighting regen stuff). Yet another option is Caradryan on Frostheart and a mounted L2, but this leaves you without a BSB (and thus no BOTWD). No magic is a suicide approach, even just having the scroll is vital).

Just been doing the maths - you've basically maxed out lords, heroes, rare and min core, so that's your lot! I'd consider switching out a noble for a unit of Dragon Princes, and these guys can carry the banner instead of the BSB, freeing him up to take defensive kit (my preferred option would be lance, dragon armour, enchanted shield, dawnstone, potion of strength if the prince doesn't have any of these items). This also means that you don't need such a big, unwieldy bus but could instead take a smaller unit or MSU helms, or perhaps even big archer blocks or movement banner spears for steadfast breaking...?

[Nicene]

I'm playing SD, griffon, L2, Frostie, helms, DPs, skycutter in my next 2500 game. Not exactly optimal, but we'll see how it goes.

[Bashtrigger]

You don't actually need to have 2 FP in stead of one FP and 4 RBT if you already take so many other cannontargets. The whole point of taking 2 of the FP, was to have target saturation. Taking a Stardragon and a FP does exactly the same thing though. If you go for the Stardragon, you might as well drop one Phoenix for the additional firepower of the RBT, to deal with redirectors and high armour targets.

The most important thing for me is to always have some threat in each of the different phases, as this provides you with options, and your opponent with difficult decisions. I can see why Curu's list works, because I can already see how it will play and how it will threaten it's opponent. It has a clearly defined goal and fields everything it needs to achieve that goal, on top of that it will put pressure in each single phase.

[pk-ng]

Assuming 2400 points
I've played SD most of 7th Ed & a bit of 8th Ed and alot of Anointed on Frostheart (see blog) and as for "Star Dragon wins without a doubt" is a big call at best (considering I've never see you play Anointed on Frostheart Curu). I agree that taking multiple Frosthearts grat diminishing returns but at what rate? Is taking two have a large diminishing returns that it is not effective / cost efficient? Obviously not considering you said 2 Frostheart with SD is good. Granted that the AFP isn't as "hitty" as the PSD but their rolls are quite different. One is all out "FAYSE SMASHT" type of guy (PSD) while the other is more of a "Come hit me punk" (AFP). The AFP is a very good grinding machine (that can't be said for the PSD); I've taken on 30 TG with Slaan support over 6 combat rounds and still won, while that can't be said for PSD. Also when it comes down to 2 Cannons I my personal opinion would be that the AFP has a high chance of surviving (would like to see the maths on this if someone is good enough to do it).

It's like comparing Apples (PSD) and Oranges (AFP) while but have similar attribute (both fruits) both play a different role and it also depends on the magical item of the AFP (the Prince really has narrow magical loadout).

Would like to see PSD vs AFP matchup

[Curu Olannon]

I haven`t played the SD much either, but as opposed to the Frostheart with Anointed the SD has a lot of strong results to show for. Every attempt I have seen with the Frostheart + Anointed has failed. A good player will get a decent finish in a tournament with it, but winning boils down to luck. In a nutshell it`s the same problem my list encountered @SM. As you say, the Frostheart isn`t as strong as the Dragon so it takes longer for it to kill stuff. This is a huge problem because the point of taking a big flyer is to smash things and keep moving. If you get stuck, this can be used against you. Furthermore, the Anointed isn`t stubborn.

As for grinding, the Star Dragon is just as good here. 2 more attacks at +1S is huge, besides with a frostheart in the list you can still get the -1S and ASL effect for it as well. Going up vs TG is not a problem for a Star Dragon, especially not with Frostheart support but even without it`s a good position to be in.

[gaz]

Also when it comes down to 2 Cannons I my personal opinion would be that the AFP has a high chance of surviving (would like to see the maths on this if someone is good enough to do it).

Results (some working given below):


I will be assuming that the prince and anointed both have a 4++ and that neither makes use of the charmed shield or the golden crown (these can easily be stripped anyway and it complicates the math). I am also assuming that phoenix has a 5++ and that the star dragon has no ward save. I am not taking into account the effect of master engineers either.


Anointed on Phoenix:

Chance to kill the long orientation (see working) Phoenix with 2 Cannon shots: 31%

Chance to kill the anointed (long orientation) with 2 Cannon shots: 38%

Chance to kill both (long orientation) with 2 Cannon shots: 0.38*0.31=12%


Chance to kill the short orientation Phoenix with 2 Cannon shots: 27%

Chance to kill the anointed (short orientation) with 2 Cannon shots: 34%

Chance to kill both (short orientation) with 2 Cannon shots: 9%


Chance to kill the long orientation (see working) Phoenix with 2 Ironblaster shots: 33%

Chance to kill the anointed (long orientation) with 2 Ironblaster shots: 41%

Chance to kill both (long orientation) with 2 Ironblaster shots: 14%


Chance to kill the short orientation Phoenix with 2 Ironblaster shots: 32%

Chance to kill the anointed (short orientation) with 2 Ironblaster shots: 39%

Chance to kill both (short orientation) with 2 Ironblaster shots: 12%



Star dragon and prince with 4++:

Chance to kill the long orientation (see working) Dragon with 2 Cannon shots: 21%

Chance to kill the Prince (long orientation) with 2 Cannon shots: 38%

Chance to kill both (long orientation) with 2 Cannon shots: 9%


Chance to kill the short orientation Dragon with 2 Cannon shots: 18%

Chance to kill the Prince (short orientation) with 2 Cannon shots: 34%

Chance to kill both (short orientation) with 2 Cannon shots: 6%


Chance to kill the long orientation Dragon with 2 Ironblaster shots: 27%

Chance to kill the Prince (long orientation) with 2 Ironblaster shots: 41%

Chance to kill both (long orientation) with 2 Ironblaster shots: 11%


Chance to kill the short orientation Dragon with 2 Ironblaster shots: 24%

Chance to kill the Prince (short orientation) with 2 Ironblaster shots: 39%

Chance to kill both (short orientation) with 2 Ironblaster shots: 9%


Edit:

So it would seem that the star dragon is more likely to survive but it is worth noting that the phoenix is quite a bit more likely to make it to combat without taking any wounds. A star dragon on 1-2 wounds isn't really much use against anything hitting back at all hard and would probably just have to try and run/hide (possibly in light combat) to preserve points.

[gaz]

Working for above results:

To hit:

Long monster:
If the phoenix/dragon is oriented such that there is a 4 inch length along which it can be hit then the odds to hit (aiming 10 inches from the back) are 75% for regular Cannons and 81% for Ironblaster. (this is taking into account a 1/6 chance of misfire which would obviously change for master engineer rerolls)

Short monster
If the phoenix/dragon is oriented such that there is a 2 inch length along which it can be hit then the odds to hit (aiming 10 inches from the back) are 67% for regular Cannons and 77% for Ironblaster.

To wound:

Long monster:

Cannon: 0.75*5/6=63%

Ironblaster: 68%


Short monster:

Cannon: 56%

Ironblaster: 64%

Unsaved wounds for phoenix with 5++ ward:
(obviously you can easily adjust for other ward saves)


Long monster:

Cannon: 0.75*5/6*2/3=42%

Ironblaster: 45%


Short monster:

Cannon: 37%

Ironblaster: 43%

Ok, given the above, the chance that a regular Cannon cause 0 wounds to a short phoenix is 1-0.37=63%. The chance that it inflicts 1 wound is 0.37*1/6= 6%. This is also true for the Cannon inflicting 2 wounds, 3 wounds 4, etc.

So for each Cannon there are 7 possible outcomes corresponding to it inflicting 0 to 6 wounds. (note that the odds are different for the 0 wounds case).

Given the above, one can conclude that there are 7^2=49 possible combinations of wounds from each Cannon if two are fired (note that the odds are not the same for each case though). Together the two Cannons can inflict between 0 and 12 wounds and there are different odds for each case as described above but by making a table with the 49 situations (and incorporating the odds for each) you can work out the odds for each total number of wounds from the 2 Cannons.

If there's interest, i could prepare a google docs spreadsheet for all the math for various situations (though I imagine something like this already exists somewhere)

[Ferny]

pk-ng...I've just read basically your entire blog - kudos.

TLoS cannonballs and scary stone throwers this is obviously a risk for flying circus armies. I'd always assumed the phoenix was better at this but looking at Gaz's breakdown they're about equal (although noted RE: dragon on low wounds). I don't really know what to make of this - I think maybe it's a wash on this front?

I have a question about roles and loadout.

Now the star dragon I understand: at 2,400 the prince is under-kitted because we simply cannot afford all the points we need within the 600 limit. But never-fear, he's just a dragon delivery system, and might have some bonus stuff like OTS to help the dragon. The role of the dragon is to smash. He also gets a cheeky free Ld10 stubborn from the banner if he's within range.

But what's the role of the annointed on frosty? Ostensibly its similar: they're both tough, high S flyers with thunderstomp. You can fly them into infantry and eat it with thunderstomps and attacks (more with dragons, and also breath weapon). Or you can fly them into big nasties and beat down on them with 4xS6 (frosty) or 6x7 (dragon) but no thunderstomps. This suggests that no matter the opponent, the dragon is the better option.

Which then makes me look at the riders. The prince gets an extra attack and Ld but vastly worse protection due to being squeezed on points (only 70 available for equipment, both mundane and magical). The way I see it his load-out is going to be heavy armour 4+, lance/GW, enchanted shield/charmed shield, dawnstone/4++/golden crown, TOTS/PoS, with compromises due to points. I'm not sure what combination from these items would be best, though I think this probably covers the options? This gives, for example, 2+/2+ with no ward save at all, but S6 on the charge and re-rolling wards vs him and the dragon.

The annointed gets 2++ vs magic (great vs death - unless you take 4++ on the prince and sacrifice mundane stuff this essentially neutralises that threat) and 3++ vs magic for the mount, with 4++/5++ ward basic, and still 100pts of magic items to play with and 50pts 'spare' for special at the end of it. Can his 100pts of equipment and ward save swing it? Lets say he follows the same route as the prince and takes 2+/2+ (plus the free 4++) and TOTS, but we lose out on Ld10 and stubborn for TOTS: this still gives him up to 55pts to spend on a magic weapon (e.g. +2S and 15pt underspend, to be banked alongside the 50pts saving for special troops). Here we lose an attack each round, but remain S6 beyond round 1 of combat. We also lose 2 monster attacks, and all 4 are at S6 not 7 (plus thunderstomps, though there's not much T5+ infantry out there which this would affect - only characters or wyssans spring to mind). (He also has -1S to incoming attacks even if unsupported by more frosties). Is loss of S7 attacks worth it for the points saving and fairly huge boost to magical and small weapons protection?

If the loss of S7 dragon attacks is that bad, what about +3S (on 3 ASF attacks) to make up for the loss of dragon? This still gives enough points free for TOTS, 2+AS (not re-rollable, but with 4++: by my math a wash up to and including S6 and better than the prince at S7+, not counting enemy OTS!) and maybe a fireward? We're still getting S7 attacks every turn, and these 3 are re-rollable, though we lose out on S7 for the 4xS6 phoenix attacks of course. I'm also ignoring the Prince's combat potential here, although to be fair, after the charge (assuming lance) it does drop to pretty negligible with only S4 (4x S6 are an alternative, but drops his AS to 3+/3+ and loses re-rolls). Bearing in mind Gaz's maths, we're not just looking at the ASL and -1S perks, but also likely more wounds still on when we reach combat and magical threats nullified. No Stubborn (and Ld9) troubles me a bit, but what can you do? Does this build make up for the loss of a dragon?

Alternative builds might be +3A+PoS+enchanted shield+fireward to help out alongside thunderstomps vs infantry and provide a nice anti-MC boost for a turn (but no TOTS or AS re-rolls) - this kinda replaces the breath weapon and one turn of S7 dragon, but the lack of TOTS kills it for me as this guy needs to be killing the hardest stuff not just hordes.

I've also tried the tank build, though it lacks the punch of any of the above: crown of command, 2+/2+ and up to 35pts of magic weapon (maybe +1S?). I'm not sure this is optimal but it can tarpit all day long (in theory - stubborn 9 is good but not foolproof).

Edit: just re-read Curu's build and feel I should add star lance and dragonhelm into the kitlist options. Note of course the fabled Stubborn 10 drops to a 'mere' 9 if and when the prince dies, but 10 WS7 S10 attacks in round 1 (4 re-rollable and no AS) followed by thunderstomps has gotta hurt, and that's what his dragon is all about.

[Curu Olannon]

To be honest with TLoS I do not think these builds can work at all unless you play with insane terrain. It is a shame, but in a world where modelling is such a big part of the hobby I really don't get why they implemented such a system in the first place.

As for equipment I think the Prince is pretty much obliged to take star lance/tots. It is the only way he can make an impact in the matchups you want the star dragon fighting. Thus it boils down to 2+ armour save or 2++ vs fire. I favour the latter because it increases the chance of points preservation significantly.

[Cold Phoenix]

Curu, a while back you pointed out that Searing Doom was a decent way of taking a few wounds off a Star Dragon. I'd imagine that Multiple castings of LD 10 Spirit Leach could also be effective. A Frostheart is more or less immune to both as long as the Annointed survives, because he gets a 3++ save against them.

[Toledo Inquisition]

I just went 4-1 at Midwest Rampage, 3000 points, pure uncomped, pure TLOS with the Star Dragon with fighty Princess (Starlance, Great Weapon, Dragon Armor, TOTS, Charmed Shield, 4+ Ward Save), Caradryan on Ashtari, and two Frosthearts. Over the last 8 months, I've gone 11-2 with the core of this list in major 3000 point uncomped TLOS tournaments.

This weekend at Midwest Rampage:

Warriors: Helcannon, everything else Slaanesh, including Demon Prince. Star Dragon took care of him.
Dark Elves: 4 Bolt Throwers, L4 Metal, 30 Witches, Cauldron, 25 Executioners, 10 Sisters, 2 Fast Cav.
Orc and Goblins (Loss): 2 Roc Lobbas, 2 Doomdivers. Chariots, 2-8 trolls, Skarsnik, L4, plenty of heroes on wolves, Manglers, 50+ Night Goblins with Fanatics, etc. Loss was due to him getting in the Watchtower, not to his shooting (but his shooting did hurt a lot).
Brets: 2 Trebs, 2 Lords (and I wasn't sure which had HKB), very good list (my primary army).
New Woodies: more fighty and magicy than shooty, but still nasty shooty. L4 Life, L4 Shadow. No Waywatchers though.


Adepticon:

Lizardmen: Balanced - Slaan, Tetto, Fighty Lord and Heroes on mounts, Cold Ones, multiple skink shooters, Temple Guard, salamanders, Saurus block
Ogres: Standard Evil. 2 Ironblasters, Gut Star, 3 Dogs, 6 Maneaters, ASL big monster, 4 Mournfang, Hellheart. Gave him his second loss ever with his list. I think he had won Midwest Rampage last year with that list.
Demons: Pure Nurgle, no warmachines but 6 Beasts, 6 Beasts, Great Unclean One, Soulgrinder, 4 Drones, 2-30 Plaguebearer Units, Epidemius, BSB.


Screw City (see large battle report):
Demons: 2 Cannons
Skaven: 2 Warplightning Cannons, Bell, Furnace, L4, 2 Doomwheels, Helpit, huge number of Monks.
Old Dwarves: 2 Cannons, Organ gun, Hammerers, old scouting Longbeard Rangers, etc.
Empire (loss): 2 Steamtanks, 2 Cannons, 2 units Demis, 50 Halberds, etc. - lost in Blood and Glory due to his L1 Metal Wizard killing 1000+ points - my Stardragon after the princess died from a cannonball and a unit of Silver Helms and his Pistoliers killing my archers to break me
Demons: 2 Cannons, Souldgrinder


I'm not saying I'm the world's best general (which I know I'm not, because I think that is the guy who runs Adepticon's Team Tournament and doesn't play in tournaments. Ric F. for you in the know - best general I've ever faced by far), but I can't be that lucky to luck my way to a 11-2 record. Look at those lists.

[Curu Olannon]

Cold Phoenix - Searing Doom is rare to meet. It`s mostly HE Loremaster who sports it in my experience. Heavens, Shadow and Death are more popular for support mages. With that being said, the Frostheart is inherently a lot stronger vs magic.

3000 points uncomped is something I have absolutely zero experience with. The few times I`ve played beyond 2.5k have either been team games or variants such as storm of magic. With that being said: I believe a lot of lists can sport victories and good track records without competitively viable. Just look at my most recent Loremaster experiment for example, in total it had something like 15 wins, 3 ties and only 2 losses (of which one was due to a terrible mistake on my part). Still, it`s not viable.

The problem I see with a Star Dragon approach with TLoS is that, unless your terrain is insane, there is literally no-where to hide (at least not for non-GW Dragons such as the Carmine Dragon/Dragonforge model etc). Again though, if the terrain is big enough / your monsters are low enough and the meta doesn`t have too many war machine heavy armies, then it could possibly work. Note that by "work", I mean the list being strong enough to win a tournament.

[Prince of Spires]

With that being said: I believe a lot of lists can sport victories and good track records without competitively viable. Just look at my most recent Loremaster experiment for example, in total it had something like 15 wins, 3 ties and only 2 losses (of which one was due to a terrible mistake on my part). Still, it`s not viable.

Eh? To me that sounds like a contradiction. If a list has a good track record then it is viable in my mind. The aim of the game is winning, and if a list consistently manages to win then it is a good list. Tournament wins are determined more by player skill and luck (in matchups and even dice) then by list quality. If you manage to go 4-1 in a tournament (and 11-2 over several TLOS tournaments) then you had a good list (and are a good player). And only 1 player can win each tournament. This does not mean that there is always only 1 good list at each tournament.

I think that if you can afford it in your list then 2 extra attacks @s7 are worth the points difference. It makes the monster a lot more reliable, even (or especially) against though opponents. The extra reduction to armour saves is worth it. Also, don't discount the breath weapon on the dragon. While it is one use only, it does let you deal with those pesky big units of low to medium S/T infantry that can otherwise bog a solo monster down. Again, it increases the reliability of the damage potential and the chance of breaking through even big units in 1-2 turns of combat.

The frostheart will almost always need support in combats (though it can hold out for the support to arrive). The Stardragon less so (though support is always nice of course). Which is a good reason to pick the stardragon over the frostheart (especially since you can get them in rare as well).

I'm left wondering, why is stubborn such a big bonus on the dragon? Stubborn is always nice of course, don't get me wrong. But I wouldn't expect my dragon to lose many combats. And definitely not lose them big. In general my dragon has more issues with simply being killed (either in combat or being shot down) then with running from combats.

Rod

[gaz]

Stubborn is always nice of course, don't get me wrong. But I wouldn't expect my dragon to lose many combats. And definitely not lose them big.

Rod

I think it's mostly to do with challenges (that you often can't refuse). If you end up against a particularly tanky character you might get few if any wounds through. If you end up against a unit champ, the prince might just kill him without dealing many/any overkill wounds. If the unit has 3 ranks, banner and potentially a bsb, that could be a significant loss for the dragon.


As an example, you try and combo charge a largish infantry unit with dragon and others but the dragon ends up being the only one that makes it.

1st round of combat, your opponent doesn't challenge and you tear into the unit getting plenty of combat res, you win combat and he holds on steadfast. 2nd round on his turn, you still don't have any support. He challenges with the single wound unit champ and you are forced to accept. Having already used his lance/star lance on the charge, the prince only barely kills the unit champ for 1-2 combat res. Meanwhile the opponent has 3 ranks and and a banner for 4 combat res so you are testing on ld 7-8. Not terrible but a fairly significant risk that the banner can mitigate (not to mention it does wonders for the unit it's in too).

[Curu Olannon]

If you manage to go 4-1 in a tournament (and 11-2 over several TLOS tournaments) then you had a good list (and are a good player).

We`ll agree to disagree here then.

Stubborn is essential. There are so many cases where you can lose big, mostly because of challenges.

[Toledo Inquisition]

I also take 18 White Lions with the Banner of the World Dragon to provide the stubborn Star Dragon element.

In these tournaments, I've found terrain is usually a bit less than what you'd normally roll up. I'd say 6 pieces on average, with 2-3 forests/hills, 1 building, one river/swamp, and one mysterious piece with perhaps one fence every other game. So I can't count on terrain at all.

The stubborn Star Dragon (for me) is a critical element. Deploy the dragon as far forward as you can. If there are no cannons or D6 wound warmachines, you can move the dragon around, setting up for even a turn 3 charge. If there are cannons, push the dragon up 15-20" and make the opponent decide "One round of shooting and if the dragon lives, it charges me. Or charge it first." In the second case, stubborn is huge, because static combat resolution will be against you if they challenge with a champ. You might lose by 3-4.

But the Star Dragon and rider did me well this tournament - Slaanesh Warrior Demon Prince (with Choir), Slaanesh chariot, Dark Elf mounted BSB, a few Cold Ones, 20ish Witch Elves/Sisters, a few Trolls, L4 Goblin mage, 10ish Night Goblins, 7 Grail Knights and a Peg knight, and 3 Wild Riders. That is killed outright, not run down. Dragon didn't die once (twice reduced to one or two wounds) but the general died twice.

The killiness/WS7/T7/7 wounds/S7 provides is amazing. When you are forcing Bret Knights to test at 6+/5++ which needs to be rerolled, life is so much easier than having 4 S6 Phoenix attacks. Of course it costs a lot more, but how many models are there that can take on a Greater Demon Prince?

Of course cannons/D6 wound warmachines are matchup dependant, but if they have them, people bring them. There are few soft lists at touraments. At best you could hope for is medium difficulty, with mostly medium hard or very hard lists. I'll say that is a competitive environment. Look at Midwest Rampage last yerar, I faced 12 cannons in 5 games.

Lastly, 3000 (no Grand Army) is the best point level to play at. Because the weaker armies can be competitive. Skaven at 3000 aren't that much better than at 2400, but Brets at 3000 are much better than at 2400. In this tournament, the Brets were able to take two fighty lords and a L4. My stubborn Star Dragon had to flee from a Bret lance charge which contained one of his lords. I didn't know if this was the lord with Heroic Killing Blow or not. At 2400, with one lord and a L4, I would know who had it at the start of the game and could plan ahead. Much harder to plan ahead with two Bret lances each with a potentially HKB lord in it.

[Ferny]

I'm about to go to my second MSU tournament this weekend so I'm casting around for a new list experience and flying circus does look fun (I enjoyed my two trial games a lot).

I've been looking at star dragon builds and I reckon I have four(ish) for 2,400:

1: The small arms and defensive build:
Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, TOTS, lance (596)

This gives 2+/2+ re-rollable (and 2++ vs fire), S6 on charge and the essential TOTS. If you don't get cannoned off I'd reckon on the prince staying alive more often than not. Of course, not getting cannoned is a big if.

2a: The anti-dual-cannon build (with 'free' starlance):
Heavy Armour, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, TOTS, starlance

Here we're replacing reliability vs small arms with some surity vs cannons (albeit just for the rider). If you're going for the almost guaranteed 2++ wards then you really need the golden crown (the charmed shield is good but is too easily pinged by small arms fire, though against some lists with limited small arms support it could save you from a round of two cannons). Switching the dawnstone and dragonhelm for these one off buffs saves us 23pts, and if we drop the lance that makes 30 - enough for the starlance which Curu rates highly.

This build gives only 3+ AS but has two 2++ wards, and includes TOTS and S7 no AS on charge.

2b: The anti-single-cannon build (with 'free' starlance):
Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown, TOTS, starlance

On the basis that the charmed shield can be too easily pinged and that the golden crown is done after AS (is that the case?) then the crown can be better preserved with this set up, which is also better against small arms and combat.

This build gives a 2+ AS (no re-rolls) and gets a single 2++ wards, and includes TOTS and S7 no AS on charge.

3: The perma-strength build (with some anti-cannon):
Heavy Armour, Shield, Golden Crown, TOTS, Starlance, Great Weapon

This build throws caution to the wind and goes for maximum strength the whole time, with the only protection being mundane and a single anti-cannon 2++. Here we get 3+ AS (4+ second round onewards in combat), one 2++ ward, with TOTS and S7 no AS on charge and S6 from round 2 (if he survives). Personally I think this build is weak - while one of the strengths of the starlance is the option to switch to a GW, that strength is better served on a barded steed with the dragonhelm, not on a points stretched dragon rider. I think this guy will just die before he gets to use his GW...

4a: The perma 3+/4++ward build:
Armour of Destiny, shield, TOTS

The annointed sits happy on a 4++ and we'd probably give a moon/eagle (Death) AM 4++, so why not a prince. This build gives him a non-pingable 4++ alongside a 3+ AS which is kinda respectable...however he is now officially a delivery system, with S4 attacks on and after the charge and no points available for even a mundane lance. It is however an interesting comparison to the annointed on frostheart, who can rock 2+AS and TOTS if he takes +3S to make up for frosty's weakness: does this dragon and useless rider surpass that frosty and useful rider?
<edited to remove illegal double magic armours>

4b: The perma 4+/4++ward build, with lance:
4++ Talisman, TOTS, shield, lance, (light armour free)

This gives 4+/4++, with TOTS and +2S on charge for some utility. It feels a bit light on the armour but actually with the perma-4++ I'm less worried about the low AS - it's still good against bowfire and low S infantry, and vs high strength opponents we're relying on the ward save anyway.

Comparing this Star Dragon Prince to the Annointed on Frosty:

Bear in mind I operate in a TLoS environment unless particular tournies house rule it (first one I went to had infinitely high hills for example). This means that vs armies with cannons (or rock throwers) I can expect to be eating 1-2 rounds of shooting before combat, depending who gets first turn.

Putting aside the Moon DeathMage for now (who I think operates quite differently anyway), what I need to know is:

1. Can we kit out the star dragon sufficiently defensively to work? (And does kit even matter if we view the lord as a delivery tax?)
2. If not, or as an alternative, can we kit out the annointed sufficiently offensively to make up for the frostheart not being a dragon?
3. And if a frostheart can do the job (regardless of rider), can Ashtari and Caradryan deliver, freeing up the lords slot for a Lv4 wizard?

[Curu Olannon]

1: The small arms and defensive build:
Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, TOTS, lance (596)

This gives 2+/2+ re-rollable (and 2++ vs fire), S6 on charge and the essential TOTS. If you don't get cannoned off I'd reckon on the prince staying alive more often than not. Of course, not getting cannoned is a big if.

2a: The anti-dual-cannon build (with 'free' starlance):
Heavy Armour, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, TOTS, starlance

Here we're replacing reliability vs small arms with some surity vs cannons (albeit just for the rider). If you're going for the almost guaranteed 2++ wards then you really need the golden crown (the charmed shield is good but is too easily pinged by small arms fire, though against some lists with limited small arms support it could save you from a round of two cannons). Switching the dawnstone and dragonhelm for these one off buffs saves us 23pts, and if we drop the lance that makes 30 - enough for the starlance which Curu rates highly.

This build gives only 3+ AS but has two 2++ wards, and includes TOTS and S7 no AS on charge.

2b: The anti-single-cannon build (with 'free' starlance):
Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown, TOTS, starlance

On the basis that the charmed shield can be too easily pinged and that the golden crown is done after AS (is that the case?) then the crown can be better preserved with this set up, which is also better against small arms and combat.

This build gives a 2+ AS (no re-rolls) and gets a single 2++ wards, and includes TOTS and S7 no AS on charge.

3: The perma-strength build (with some anti-cannon):
Heavy Armour, Shield, Golden Crown, TOTS, Starlance, Great Weapon

This build throws caution to the wind and goes for maximum strength the whole time, with the only protection being mundane and a single anti-cannon 2++. Here we get 3+ AS (4+ second round onewards in combat), one 2++ ward, with TOTS and S7 no AS on charge and S6 from round 2 (if he survives). Personally I think this build is weak - while one of the strengths of the starlance is the option to switch to a GW, that strength is better served on a barded steed with the dragonhelm, not on a points stretched dragon rider. I think this guy will just die before he gets to use his GW...

4a: The perma 4++ward build and 2+ save build:
Armour of Destiny, enchanted shield, TOTS

The annointed sits happy on a 4++ and we'd probably give a moon/eagle (Death) AM 4++, so why not a prince. This build gives him a non-pingable 4++ alongside a 2+ AS which is pretty respectable...however he is now officially a delivery system, with S4 attacks on and after the charge and no points available for even a mundane lance. It is however an interesting comparison to the annointed on frostheart, who can rock 2+AS and TOTS if he takes +3S to make up for frosty's weakness: does this dragon and useless rider surpass that frosty and useful rider?

4a: The perma 4++ward build and 2+ save build:
4++ Talisman, TOTS, shield, lance, (light armour free)

1. Probably the worst build. 2+ re-rollable is good, but useless vs war machines, which will target you.
2a. Interesting, especially in TLoS
2b. Ok I guess, but I`d prefer Dragonhelm over 2+
3. Great Weapon feels like a waste when you bring a shield, in my opinion. Besides, S6 without re-rolls isn`t that much in my opinion, I`d prefer Halberd for reliability if you want to go down this road.
4a. Illegal, 2 pieces of magical armour. The other might work.

In the end I think that cannon protection is essential, along with TOTS. If you can spare points after this is ensured, I like fireward for points preservation and star lance to actually make the prince more than just a delivery system: with it he really hurts on the charge. It can make a huge difference when you really need to kill something as soon as possible, a Daemon Prince for example.

1. Can we kit out the star dragon sufficiently defensively to work? (And does kit even matter if we view the lord as a delivery tax?)
2. If not, or as an alternative, can we kit out the annointed sufficiently offensively to make up for the frostheart not being a dragon?
3. And if a frostheart can do the job (regardless of rider), can Ashtari and Caradryan deliver, freeing up the lords slot for a Lv4 wizard?

1. I`m not sure what you mean here. Apart from MR and ICI, neither of which are in any of your builds here (nor should they be!), all your items affect the Prince only.
2. Frostheart isn`t T7, nor 7W, nor does it have a 3+ armour save. I have played enough to know that the ward save does not make up for this, it is not more survivable than the Star Dragon. And no, the offensive power can`t match the SD. Key points being S7. Even with the Giant Blade on the Anointed, you`re looking at 3S7 + 4S6, which is no-where near the Prince with Star Lance + Star Dragon. You`re not looking for grinding power with such a build, hitting power is what`s essential.
3. No, it`s just not the same build. The Star Dragon is about the rest of your list, not what the Star Dragon can do. It needs flexibility strong units to go along with it. If you bring Caradryan on Ashtari, fitting in the mages and fighters you want will be very hard and you still won`t have the hitting power you`re after.

While I`m all for making new approaches work, I`ve tried so many variants of the Star Dragon and they all seem lack-lustre in what they, unfortunately. The closest I`ve been to what I consider the default list is dual Heavens with support infantry, but it`s just not the same (I have quite a few games without BRs running this setup). While I really appreciate original builds that just work, I will quickly ditch one that does not work. For the Star Dragon, High Magic on dual mounted level 2s just gives you so much flexibility it`s not even funny. Your spell selection is as good as an L4s if you need it to be and you can still get 3 casts of soul quench, depending on your setup. Coven of Light might work as well, though there are no good Timewarp targets. Unfortunately every time I try and make variants, I gravitate towards the Helms with mounted characters regardless as it`s just superior. I think that our elite infantry, probably with the exception of PG, are currently poorly designed. They simply can`t do the same jobs they used to be able to and that`s a shame. Basically the only way to make WL work is to take a big block with BOTWD and play them defensively. The Swordmasters I haven`t seen anyone make work. I believe that if these units had been stronger, they could support the Dragon quite effectively, presenting us with more options.

[Optimistic]

While I`m all for making new approaches work, I`ve tried so many variants of the Star Dragon and they all seem lack-lustre in what they, unfortunately. The closest I`ve been to what I consider the default list is dual Heavens with support infantry, but it`s just not the same (I have quite a few games without BRs running this setup). While I really appreciate original builds that just work, I will quickly ditch one that does not work. For the Star Dragon, High Magic on dual mounted level 2s just gives you so much flexibility it`s not even funny. Your spell selection is as good as an L4s if you need it to be and you can still get 3 casts of soul quench, depending on your setup. Coven of Light might work as well, though there are no good Timewarp targets. Unfortunately every time I try and make variants, I gravitate towards the Helms with mounted characters regardless as it`s just superior. I think that our elite infantry, probably with the exception of PG, are currently poorly designed. They simply can`t do the same jobs they used to be able to and that`s a shame. Basically the only way to make WL work is to take a big block with BOTWD and play them defensively. The Swordmasters I haven`t seen anyone make work. I believe that if these units had been stronger, they could support the Dragon quite effectively, presenting us with more options.

Intrigued by this, mind expanding on the concepts? Why dual lvl 2's on high magic, do you find the spells in high all that worth it, as opposed to say heavens or beasts, are you banking primarily on the MM's here? Walk between worlds or apoth to heal the dragon? Do you find the inclusion of 4 RBT's present enough "threat", if you will, to force the issue against say DE's or WoC as opposed to the dual Frost chicken set up, giving you three flying T-stomps? How do you find the match up against Empire or dwarfs? Is the helm bus self sufficient, or do you run it primarily as dragon support? Do you think the inclusion of a unit of PG's, wold help or hinder the list? *Edit* Forgot to ask about the character kits, anything out of the ordinary on the mages / nobel?

[Curu Olannon]

That`s a lot of questions ^^

1. Why dual lvl 2's on high magic, do you find the spells in high all that worth it, as opposed to say heavens or beasts, are you banking primarily on the MM's here? Walk between worlds or apoth to heal the dragon?

Apotheosis is super powerful, walk between worlds is super powerful, magic missiles are awesome, ward save increases durability

2. Do you find the inclusion of 4 RBT's present enough "threat", if you will, to force the issue against say DE's or WoC as opposed to the dual Frost chicken set up, giving you three flying T-stomps?

The RBTs provide a huge threat and lots of flexibility against so many lists. The board control aspect alone is super-powerful. Vs DE and WoC they are essential. I doubt a second frostie is equally important in these matchups, though it`s probably superior in others.

3. How do you find the match up against Empire or dwarfs?

Bad.

4. Is the helm bus self sufficient, or do you run it primarily as dragon support?

Depends on the opponent. A safe haven for the characters to keep throwing out magic is definitely nice. Against lots of lists you can send them in against units and expect to win. Against others, it`s about Dragon support and points preservation.

5. Do you think the inclusion of a unit of PG's, wold help or hinder the list?

Hinder. Where would the points come from and what would they do?

6. Forgot to ask about the character kits, anything out of the ordinary on the mages / nobel?

Interesting question. With 2 Nobles and 2 Mages, points are really hard pressed. Basically you have to decide: Stubborn Crown or Ring of Fury (BSB taking BOTWD and the second mage taking scroll). The second might be better with split Helms, i.e. 8 + 13 instead of one big unit.

[Ferny]

1: The small arms and defensive build:
Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, TOTS, lance (596)

2a: The anti-dual-cannon build (with 'free' starlance):
Heavy Armour, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, TOTS, starlance

2b: The anti-single-cannon build (with 'free' starlance):
Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown, TOTS, starlance

3: The perma-strength build (with some anti-cannon):
Heavy Armour, Shield, Golden Crown, TOTS, Starlance, Great Weapon

4a: The perma 4++ward build and 3+ save build:
Armour of Destiny, shield, TOTS
<edited to remove illegal double magic armours>

4b: The perma 4++ward build and 2+ save build:
4++ Talisman, TOTS, shield, lance, (light armour free)

1. Probably the worst build. 2+ re-rollable is good, but useless vs war machines, which will target you.
2a. Interesting, especially in TLoS
2b. Ok I guess, but I`d prefer Dragonhelm over 2+
3. Great Weapon feels like a waste when you bring a shield, in my opinion. Besides, S6 without re-rolls isn`t that much in my opinion, I`d prefer Halberd for reliability if you want to go down this road.
4a. Illegal, 2 pieces of magical armour. The other might work.

In the end I think that cannon protection is essential, along with TOTS. If you can spare points after this is ensured, I like fireward for points preservation and star lance to actually make the prince more than just a delivery system: with it he really hurts on the charge. It can make a huge difference when you really need to kill something as soon as possible, a Daemon Prince for example.

1. I want this one to be the best because it's so much better in combat, but I have to appreciate that the big threat to him isn't combat but cannons. On that basis I'm happy to concede it as the worst build for an all-comers environment (though possibly the best in tailored matches?, but that's a whole different discussion).
2. a) I like it
2. b) I can't see where we'd get the ponts for the Dragonhelm in this build? Assuming TOTS is non-negotiable (I agree), as is starlance (I'd negotiate on this one , but given that it's for a minimal defensive boost I'm happy to keep it in), and the golden crown is cheap cannon protection, then we're looking at 15 points left for armour. My default build as presented combines heavy armour and enchanted shield for 2+ and is something of a compromise between options 1 and 2a, but you could squeeze the dragonhelm in by dropping the heavy armour and just taking a mundane shield - this would give you a fireward but drops your mundane armour down to 3+...essentially this is option 2c, where we replace the charmed shield ward save for a fireward save. Personally I think the charmed shield is less conditional, but I haven't got the gaming XP to actually back up that intuition.
I guess we could take mundane shield+dragonhelm for a 3+ rather than heavy+enchanted for 2+.
3. Agree that it's a shame GW negates shield, but that's not really the issue here - we're already forced to compromise between protection and offense, so this is my attempt at the most balls-out offensive option. I haven't math-hammered halberd vs GW on a lord so for the moment I'm assuming their equal and to taste, but I'll happily revise this subject to data. However, while we might be happy to compromise on the prince's safety once he's in combat, he still needs to get there - as such I think I favour 2a over this build, regardless of secondary weapon choice.
4. Fixed it. 3+/4++ with no lance or 4+/4++ with lance. How would you rate this compared to 2a, which I think at the moment stands out as the best defense:offense compromise?

1. Can we kit out the star dragon sufficiently defensively to work? (And does kit even matter if we view the lord as a delivery tax?)
2. If not, or as an alternative, can we kit out the annointed sufficiently offensively to make up for the frostheart not being a dragon?
3. And if a frostheart can do the job (regardless of rider), can Ashtari and Caradryan deliver, freeing up the lords slot for a Lv4 wizard?

1. I`m not sure what you mean here. Apart from MR and ICI, neither of which are in any of your builds here (nor should they be!), all your items affect the Prince only.
2. Frostheart isn`t T7, nor 7W, nor does it have a 3+ armour save. I have played enough to know that the ward save does not make up for this, it is not more survivable than the Star Dragon. And no, the offensive power can`t match the SD. Key points being S7. Even with the Giant Blade on the Anointed, you`re looking at 3S7 + 4S6, which is no-where near the Prince with Star Lance + Star Dragon. You`re not looking for grinding power with such a build, hitting power is what`s essential.
3. No, it`s just not the same build. The Star Dragon is about the rest of your list, not what the Star Dragon can do. It needs flexibility strong units to go along with it. If you bring Caradryan on Ashtari, fitting in the mages and fighters you want will be very hard and you still won`t have the hitting power you`re after.

1. I meant defence for the prince rather than the dragon (e.g. armour, dawnstone and wards)...normally we'd want our prince to have more protection: 1+/1+ with BotWD or MR is probably the standard (cavalry) build...here he's pretty light on protection - is he protected enough to work and does it even matter seen as he's really a dragon tax?

2. Fair enough - frostheart isn't nearly as hitty (even with S7 blade) and they seem to be a wash on defense I think?

3. Caradryan allows us to bring a Lv4 and a BSB - I'd expect 600 heroes and 330ish lords (max). This still allows for one solid special support element and up to full rare - is this insufficient hitting power?

[Curu Olannon]

Prince kit: yes, fireward blocks 2+, unfortunately. It`s so close though, why couldn`t they just make it fit @2.4k? Anyways, the fireward protects points in a number of scenarios. TK Screaming Skull, Daemons` Skullcannon, Searing Doom, Fireball. It also lets the Prince jump into stuff with the banner of eternal flame with impunity, keeping that all-important TOTS alive. While I can appreciate that you might favour charmed shield, what fractions don`t have the option of hitting the prince at least once prior to that cannon firing off? In my experience this is almost trivial for good players to do, unless you play super-defensively.

As for the 4++ approach, I suppose it could work. Give it a try if you will I do miss the Star Lance and the Prince will die regardless against serious opponents, but I don`t know. Give it a shot! Once you`ve had S7 no armour saves though... ^^

As for defense. Perhaps they`re the same on paper, on averages, but the Star Dragon has 7 wounds. That means for example that it cannot die to a single cannonball, which can be a big deal. It also means that once it`s taken 2-3 wounds, it isn`t that risky to send it in without having to get apotheosis off. Offensively, frosthearts aren`t stubborn. They have 4 attacks, S6, WS6. It`s just an entirely different deal. I just don´t know how you`d play such a list. Perhaps you could get away with a defensive style with counter-attacks from Caradryan + second frostheart in a shooty list, but what would the rest look like, and would frosthearts be the best investment of points here? No hero mages mean you have to choose between scroll and book, for example, while spending 900+ points on characters means you can only have 1 elite infantry unit and since you want BOTWD, that pretty much has to be lions. Sounds like a weird list to me, one where you should either have taken the star dragon for offense or left caradryan (and possibly the second frostie as well) at home in favour of more magic and shooting.

[Rexhavoc]

I believe a lot of lists can sport victories and good track records without competitively viable. Just look at my most recent Loremaster experiment for example, in total it had something like 15 wins, 3 ties and only 2 losses (of which one was due to a terrible mistake on my part). Still, it`s not viable.

Woah...this statement just blew my mind. I think I have a permanent eye twitch now

[Curu Olannon]

Why`s that?

[Rexhavoc]

Why`s that?

Maybe it's just me but I just don't understand the statement. It seems contradictory. Maybe I just don't understand the game to a high enough level yet. The fact that you have a 15-2 tourney record is evidence enough that the list is at the very least viable. People may have an opinion that a list is not viable based on theory but when evidence from practical application proves otherwise I'll side with practical application over theory every time. The Guy with the SD list has an 11-2 tourney record vs a pretty good mix of armies yet folks are still claiming his list is not viable based on theory. I have to say his list is at the very least viable. It's not like He's claiming it's the most competitive list.
I guess if we looked at this backwards and someone posted an uncommon list and claimed it was super competitive yet he had a 2-15 tourney record with it we'd probably look at the actual results over the theory. Why is it different in this case? I'm not trying to be a wise-butt, I honesty don't understand how a list can go 15-2 and not be at least competitively viable?