Is the End in sight for the silver helms bus?

[Ether Dude]

My only point was that while Silver Helms are vulnerable, a second unit common seen in list (BotWD white lions) are very resilient to WE shooting, through wards, armour or numbers.

Despite all the personal rancor we seem to have built up, I think in the end we agree. As a wood elf player, I would shoot/magic the bus and delay botwd lions until the bus and characters were dead before pointing the waywatchers at the lions. I doubt this will be the end of the bus as it's such a strong core combat option (with characters).

Well that says everything I need to know about your attitude and knowledge about the game.

[Domine Nox]

my only point was that while Silver Helms are vulnerable, a second unit common seen in list (BotWD white lions) are very resilient to WE shooting, through wards, armour or numbers.

These things both die equally against Way Watchers. 4's to wound, no armor saves, that negates the 2+ or the 3+ and their arrows aren't magical...

[RedPanda]

My only point was that while Silver Helms are vulnerable, a second unit common seen in list (BotWD white lions) are very resilient to WE shooting, through wards, armour or numbers.

Despite all the personal rancor we seem to have built up, I think in the end we agree. As a wood elf player, I would shoot/magic the bus and delay botwd lions until the bus and characters were dead before pointing the waywatchers at the lions. I doubt this will be the end of the bus as it's such a strong core combat option (with characters).

Well that says everything I need to know about your attitude and knowledge about the game.

I think the problem is that White Lions are slow compared to cavalry so the Wood Elves can do target priority: the faster units then the slower units regardless if the WL has the BotWD or not.

Not saying that WL with BotWD is bad, just it gives the Wood Elves time to pick other targets off so they wont sting as much before facing the WL.

[cptcosmic]

the WE will lose in combat without delivering HE combat characters into melee, especially when the WE player focus too much on shooting units. the obvious solution is to not use a SH character bus as character delivery system but use the SH bus to protect one important character like the BSB, spread out your points across your whole army instead of having the most in one unit and use alot of shooting + chaff by yourself.

[RedPanda]

the WE will lose in combat without delivering HE combat characters into melee, especially when the WE player focus too much on shooting units. the obvious solution is to not use a SH character bus as character delivery system but use the SH bus to protect one important character like the BSB, spread out your points across your whole army instead of having the most in one unit and use alot of shooting + chaff by yourself.

Just be careful of writing off the thought as too much Shooting units being they all have ASF AND special rules for being in the forest.
Sure they are unarmored but still a threat being they strike at the same time and in the forest they get the same amount of ranks as us and get something similar as Hatred.

HE archer core lists are a good example of this while they cost more than our archers they are also more effective in the shooting phase and in the forest everything about them are more effective.

[Rommel44]

the WE will lose in combat without delivering HE combat characters into melee, especially when the WE player focus too much on shooting units. the obvious solution is to not use a SH character bus as character delivery system but use the SH bus to protect one important character like the BSB, spread out your points across your whole army instead of having the most in one unit and use alot of shooting + chaff by yourself.

Just be careful of writing off the thought as too much Shooting units being they all have ASF AND special rules for being in the forest.
Sure they are unarmored but still a threat being they strike at the same time and in the forest they get the same amount of ranks as us and get something similar as Hatred.

HE archer core lists are a good example of this while they cost more than our archers they are also more effective in the shooting phase and in the forest everything about them are more effective.

That or a big horde of Spearmen and Bolt Throwers mate. . In my games against the WE's , both of these units have done a very good job when fighting them, as Bolt Throwers have longer range and can do a lot of damage being S4, and WE's for the most part still have trouble with a big block of 50x Spearmen coming at them. Just my 2 cents.

[Baleanoon]

my only point was that while Silver Helms are vulnerable, a second unit common seen in list (BotWD white lions) are very resilient to WE shooting, through wards, armour or numbers.

These things both die equally against Way Watchers. 4's to wound, no armor saves, that negates the 2+ or the 3+ and their arrows aren't magical...

You have the option to have both only restricted by real money. 10 no As shots at each unit a phase is pretty meh, especially as the rest of their shooting isn't going to be equipped to help with either. Even counting that, I seriously doubt we'll be seeing 2x10 Waywatchers very long, like most extreme builds they last a month or so, the meta acclimatizes, and players tone it down towards an more all comers list.

I'm also leery on knighting WE as a consistent meta threat, they're pretty niche and have serious limitations against some of the most popular "theme" armies in the game.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Swordmasters and White Lions struggle against pretty much anything with ASF that is combat-oriented. Run the math vs Phoenix Guard or Witchelves for example, it`s not even funny how bad they are.

Could you, please, provide more details on the SM vs PG calculations you did? I believe 20 SM can dismantle 20 PG.

[Domine Nox]

Well by my numbers (assuming 5x4) first round PG kill 6.6 (round to 7) SMs. SMs in return kill 5.8 (round to 6), PG Win by 2 (Extra rank)

(Assuming 6x3) PG kill 7.7 SMs, and SMs kill 6.9 PG. PG Win by 1.

It's not laughably bad, but PG do have the edge.

[Ferny]

I've just done some maths and will post but I have a question: am I right in thinking the PG do NOT get re-rolls because the SM ASF cancels it out, or does their ASL cancel their ASF enabling PG to keep their re-rolls? I feel I should know this but it's late and I'm not confident...

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

They do have re-rolls against SM's and WL's (or Execs for that matter).

[RedPanda]

my only point was that while Silver Helms are vulnerable, a second unit common seen in list (BotWD white lions) are very resilient to WE shooting, through wards, armour or numbers.

These things both die equally against Way Watchers. 4's to wound, no armor saves, that negates the 2+ or the 3+ and their arrows aren't magical...

You have the option to have both only restricted by real money. 10 no As shots at each unit a phase is pretty meh, especially as the rest of their shooting isn't going to be equipped to help with either. Even counting that, I seriously doubt we'll be seeing 2x10 Waywatchers very long, like most extreme builds they last a month or so, the meta acclimatizes, and players tone it down towards an more all comers list.

I'm also leery on knighting WE as a consistent meta threat, they're pretty niche and have serious limitations against some of the most popular "theme" armies in the game.

I dont see that happening anytime soon being unlike the prior WW, the current WW are pretty much almost an all comers unit.
Sure it is more expensive than a unit of scouts with a single enchanted arrow, but you also need to figure the extra cost you are paying for them provides versaility which can handle multple types of targets which you need to take two Scouts to do the single unit of WW can do.[

Think of it like this:
WE Waywatchers = HE Bolt Throwers
So the only time when you dont want the bolt thrower is for something else - Flaming attacks, and poison and maybe no-mod arrows. Kinda like us with Sisters being it does something different and is needed.

They do have re-rolls against SM's and WL's (or Execs for that matter).

PG has a higher init, then you add in wardsave then you add in a higher Leadership and fear.

[Prince of Spires]

Well by my numbers (assuming 5x4) first round PG kill 6.6 (round to 7) SMs. SMs in return kill 5.8 (round to 6), PG Win by 2 (Extra rank)

(Assuming 6x3) PG kill 7.7 SMs, and SMs kill 6.9 PG. PG Win by 1.

It's not laughably bad, but PG do have the edge.

I think your math is off.

Assumptions: PG will go 5 wide, since that is their best and most efficient formation most of the time. SM go 7 wide, since why would they be 5 wide. 20 PG, 5X4, 23 SM (for equal points) for 7X3 + some in rank 4.

PG get 15 attack. Hit 7.5, after reroll 11.25. Wound 7.5. Armour saves 1 for 6.25 kills.
This leaves 16.75 SM with 23.75 attacks, hit 15.83 times, wound 13.19, ward saves half for 6.60 dead PG.

Both have 2 ranks, which means that whoever charged wins combat, but killwise the SM have the upper hand. Round 2 does have the PG winning (with 5.4 vs 5) since the deathtoll is starting to weigh in on the SM.

This is a generic GW wielding unit problem though. All GW units suffer from going after faster units. That doesn't mean that they are bad in the game at large. Just that you have to be careful vs other elf or ASF units. SM and WL actually do come off pretty good. With high I and ASF as well as ASL, they still go before most things in the game. Which is more then some other high S units can say.

Rod

[Curu Olannon]

Swordmasters and White Lions struggle against pretty much anything with ASF that is combat-oriented. Run the math vs Phoenix Guard or Witchelves for example, it`s not even funny how bad they are.

Could you, please, provide more details on the SM vs PG calculations you did? I believe 20 SM can dismantle 20 PG.

20 PG fighting 21 SM, PG carrying razor standard (they always do). What SM carry does not matter. Assuming head-on collision with 7-wide SM and 5-wide PG, we get the following:

16 PG attacks (1 targeting champ) = 0.75 * 0.67 * 16 = 8 dead Swordmasters. 50-50 for dead champ, so half an attack extra for SM in return:
20.5 SM attacks = 0.67 * 0.84 * 0.5 * 20.5 = 5.76 dead PG.

Let`s assume the PG player somehow has himself completely surrounded, so that Swordmasters can attack on all sides at the same time (7 in front + rear, 4 on one flank, 3 on the other):

21 PG attacks = 0.75 * 0.67 * 21 = 10.5 Dead Swordmasters.
21 SM attacks = 0.67 * 0.84 * 0.5 * 21 = 6 dead PG.

Considering this should be our best elite infantry unit, this is terribly bad and shows my point: ASF troops murder our elites to the point where it`s not even funny. Bearing in mind that PG are twice as survivable as SM vs most war machines and way more durable vs magic, I think this is laughably bad. Losing true ASF on our elites hurt them so much, their roles have changed drastically. White Lions are now reduced to a unit that almost always has to play a defensive role with the BOTWD whereas Swordmasters are better left at home, sadly.

[Wicksi]

Swordmasters and White Lions struggle against pretty much anything with ASF that is combat-oriented. Run the math vs Phoenix Guard or Witchelves for example, it`s not even funny how bad they are.

Could you, please, provide more details on the SM vs PG calculations you did? I believe 20 SM can dismantle 20 PG.

20 PG fighting 21 SM, PG carrying razor standard (they always do). What SM carry does not matter. Assuming head-on collision with 7-wide SM and 5-wide PG, we get the following:

16 PG attacks (1 targeting champ) = 0.75 * 0.67 * 16 = 8 dead Swordmasters. 50-50 for dead champ, so half an attack extra for SM in return:
20.5 SM attacks = 0.67 * 0.84 * 0.5 * 20.5 = 5.76 dead PG.

Let`s assume the PG player somehow has himself completely surrounded, so that Swordmasters can attack on all sides at the same time (7 in front + rear, 4 on one flank, 3 on the other):

21 PG attacks = 0.75 * 0.67 * 21 = 10.5 Dead Swordmasters.
21 SM attacks = 0.67 * 0.84 * 0.5 * 21 = 6 dead PG.

Considering this should be our best elite infantry unit, this is terribly bad and shows my point: ASF troops murder our elites to the point where it`s not even funny. Bearing in mind that PG are twice as survivable as SM vs most war machines and way more durable vs magic, I think this is laughably bad. Losing true ASF on our elites hurt them so much, their roles have changed drastically. White Lions are now reduced to a unit that almost always has to play a defensive role with the BOTWD whereas Swordmasters are better left at home, sadly.

This discussion seems absurdly offtopic on a Silver Helm bus thread but hey.

Your maths might look ok when you put it like that but lets assume both units have full command then the PG unit will cost 375 points and the Swordmaster unit 303 this is a 23,76% more points in a unit therefore I call your example rubbish.

Yes PG's do have better defense and rerolls to hit but they are also 2points more expensive per unit and less S and attacks.

And yes PG's Might be better then Swordmasters point for point against eachother but keep in mind that Swordmasters are designed to run in kill the unit and move on before taking to much casualties from return attacks while Phoenix guards is specifikly designed to whitstand these type of units.

[Prince of Spires]

@Curu: not fair. The PG unit is also 72 points more expensive, which is either another 6 SM or something like a buff from a mage, which changes things a lot. It shouldn't be a surprise that a more expensive unit beats a cheaper one. That's not laughable or strange. That's simply good games design.

If you factor in the price difference by simply adding in the extra 6 SM attacks, then the SM get 26.6 attacks, which give 7.5 dead PG, which suddenly makes it very close instead of laughable. Use the 77 points for something else and you suddenly get a very different idea.

Say, a lvl 2 mage. 120 points, which works out as 20 points per turn, or 40 if you think he only does something half the game. Fair to add to the mix for the 72 pts difference. Flesh to stone gives you 4 dead SM instead of 8. Win for the SM. Enfeebling foe has about the same result, depending on the D3. But you only kill 6 SM with a 1 or 2, which makes it roughly a draw and only 2 SM on a roll of 5 or 6... Miasma on I has a 2/3 chance of removing the reroll, for only 5.3 dead SM. Pha's protection, speed of light, timewarp, enchanted blades, wildform all serve the same purpose. All give a win to the SM.

Or how about a frostheart in the mix. use him half the game gives 80 points per turn, matching up to the 72 of the PG (or even less if you consider he is active more turns then just 3). Already just the ASL and -1s hugely swings the balance in the SM difference and that is without counting the phoenix attacks.

So it's not as clearcut as you make it seem. And 72 pts difference in a unit is enough to make it obvious one infantry combat unit should beat another and is enough to swing things differently.

Rod

[Curu Olannon]

Fine, take Swordmasters and expect to beat PG then. If anything, adding Swordmasters means more swordmasters die. The last example was to show that even a complete surround won`t be favourable to the Swordmasters and it is impossible to achieve in a game against a good player. Your best case scenario, which will never happen, is to get SM full-strength into PG. If you do, they die. Again, it`s laughable because the PG are so much better in so many other areas.

Swordmasters are dead. White Lions are worse than they used to be but stubborn, cloaks and S6 help them.

[Prince of Spires]

Nice to see you completely ignore everything we say.

We're not denying that PG worth 23% more then a unit of SM will not beat the SM unit. Or that PG are a great, versatile and strong combat unit. Or that PG don't have a place in most HE lists. We're just pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. As said, SM with flesh to stone and so roughly the points equivalent of your PG unit absolutely hammer the PG.

And SM supported by a frostheart absolutely destroy the PG point equivalent so bad it's just laughable. That would give 9 or so wounds vs the PG 3.3

I don't take SM and expect them to beat PG. In fact, usually the first unit in my armylist is a unit of PG with razor banner (usually 15 strong, which I find is a great size for them). And I expect them to hold their own against almost anything and walk over most weaker things out there.

The reason I take SM is the high number of attacks and their usefulness against anything not ASF, I6 with a wardsave. I take them in small numbers as a relatively cheap fire and forget missile.

Interestingly enough, the HE player that won the Crossroads GT seems to disagree with you as well. He took a big unit of SM next to a unit of PG. And considering he won the tournament, I dare say they performed well enough for him...

Rod

[Curu Olannon]

If you want full context, bring a battle report. I illustrated two fairly close to real-world examples: a usual block of PG vs a usual block of SM, and SMs swarming PG. If you add points in these scenarios to make SMs equally "strong" (which is irrelevant as you don`t run hordes of SM), they still lose. Add to that, there`s the lack of protection.

As for Xroads, I assume you mean this list:

Cav. Prince + Giant Blade, Sh., Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, Ironcurse, Dragon Armour
Loremaster of Hoeth = BoH, 2+ AS
Mounted BSB + Star Lance, Ench.Sh, Obs.Trinket, Dragon Armour

12 Archers + banner
13 Silverhelms + command, shields
2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers + champ

17 Swordmasters of Hoeth + MS, BotWD
23 Pheonix Guard + MS, Razor Banner

5 Shadow Warriors + champ

3x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
2x Great Eagle

Looking at this, http://www.crossroads-gt.com/files/Spri ... esults.htm, he`s scored very well on the soft points. BP-wise, he`s ~6 which is still good, but miles away from the best list (15bp, which is huge). Bearing in mind that this list is very similar to what I ran @SM, I can only conclude that this, like mine, is not a weak choice, but it isn`t strong enough. By inference then, his position has more to do with player skill than army list strength.

Anyway, further discussions on SM/PG/WL should be taken in the newly created thread I suppose.

[SpellArcher]

Wood Elves have multiple ways to counter a Spear Horde. Treeman, top spells, pure avoidance, massed shooting. TBH this was true of the old book as well.

2x10 Waywatchers just looks really, really good in general. As Red Panda elucidated, the multi-shot means they don't really have a bad match-up. Even against Daemons you'll be wanting to shoot Furies, Core, Greater Daemons. BS5 and multi-shot means you're only paying 10pts per shot, compared to 12-18 otherwise. Scout and Skirmish means those shots get exactly where you need them to be, usually at a -2 to be hit. They may well be comped but even ETC has a blanket comp on the best shooting that will likely see 2x10 Waywatchers used anyway (see the list Hans used against Curu in the latter's blog), they are that good. Sure, they're not supermen but it's 400pts you're spending, they don't have to do everything for you.

The main reason you will see them in numbers though, is that the army desperately lacked a reliable counter to fast armour lists before and now it has one. This doesn't mean the SH bus is defunct, just that WE's benefit greatly from having a unit that can actually threaten it now. It's early days though, while I expect them to remain in most lists, other twists will emerge and the way WE's play best against each enemy army needs to be worked out before we really know what's what.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

I would like to apologise MartinElf for posting about SM's etc. in his topic about totally different matter! It was totally unintentional and I should have thought better than to carry on. Sorry mate!

[Curu Olannon]

Wood Elves have multiple ways to counter a Spear Horde. Treeman, top spells, pure avoidance, massed shooting. TBH this was true of the old book as well.

2x10 Waywatchers just looks really, really good in general. As Red Panda elucidated, the multi-shot means they don't really have a bad match-up. Even against Daemons you'll be wanting to shoot Furies, Core, Greater Daemons. BS5 and multi-shot means you're only paying 10pts per shot, compared to 12-18 otherwise. Scout and Skirmish means those shots get exactly where you need them to be, usually at a -2 to be hit. They may well be comped but even ETC has a blanket comp on the best shooting that will likely see 2x10 Waywatchers used anyway (see the list Hans used against Curu in the latter's blog), they are that good. Sure, they're not supermen but it's 400pts you're spending, they don't have to do everything for you.

The main reason you will see them in numbers though, is that the army desperately lacked a reliable counter to fast armour lists before and now it has one. This doesn't mean the SH bus is defunct, just that WE's benefit greatly from having a unit that can actually threaten it now. It's early days though, while I expect them to remain in most lists, other twists will emerge and the way WE's play best against each enemy army needs to be worked out before we really know what's what.

The real strength of a properly designed cavstar is its ability to work well at a distance in addition to crashing home and killing stuff. Multiple MMs and Fiery Convocation ensures that you don`t even have to send the Helms in, just use them as a mobile platform from which your mages can be safe. So the cavstar is at least potent against WE.

Looking at the bus, I believe the minimum number you can take is 13. Anything less and lists with WMs become scary very, very soon. If this is a risk you`re willing to take you could get away with less of course, but I`ve also found that it`s very little else you`d like to spend your core points on, so may as well throw it into the bus. With this list, you`re looking at an elite infantry unit and RBT support in addition to the bus. I don`t think list is hard to play vs WE either, but of course having an M5 unit is way worse than everything important being M9 because WE can focus at one threat at a time.

[Baleanoon]

Wood Elves have multiple ways to counter a Spear Horde. Treeman, top spells, pure avoidance, massed shooting. TBH this was true of the old book as well.

2x10 Waywatchers just looks really, really good in general. As Red Panda elucidated, the multi-shot means they don't really have a bad match-up. Even against Daemons you'll be wanting to shoot Furies, Core, Greater Daemons. BS5 and multi-shot means you're only paying 10pts per shot, compared to 12-18 otherwise. Scout and Skirmish means those shots get exactly where you need them to be, usually at a -2 to be hit. They may well be comped but even ETC has a blanket comp on the best shooting that will likely see 2x10 Waywatchers used anyway (see the list Hans used against Curu in the latter's blog), they are that good. Sure, they're not supermen but it's 400pts you're spending, they don't have to do everything for you.

The main reason you will see them in numbers though, is that the army desperately lacked a reliable counter to fast armour lists before and now it has one. This doesn't mean the SH bus is defunct, just that WE's benefit greatly from having a unit that can actually threaten it now. It's early days though, while I expect them to remain in most lists, other twists will emerge and the way WE's play best against each enemy army needs to be worked out before we really know what's what.

Patently false:

Double Steam tank, 8+ DGKs. and light council

6+ chaos single models

Beast of Nurgle + Plague drones

All three are pretty popular and dominant meta

Like I said I'm fairly certain just like every other 8th edition book, WE well trend towards combat. Waywatchers will be a must include but I doubt it will be 20.

[Ferny]

Wood Elves have multiple ways to counter a Spear Horde. Treeman, top spells, pure avoidance, massed shooting. TBH this was true of the old book as well.

2x10 Waywatchers just looks really, really good in general. As Red Panda elucidated, the multi-shot means they don't really have a bad match-up. Even against Daemons you'll be wanting to shoot Furies, Core, Greater Daemons. BS5 and multi-shot means you're only paying 10pts per shot, compared to 12-18 otherwise. Scout and Skirmish means those shots get exactly where you need them to be, usually at a -2 to be hit. They may well be comped but even ETC has a blanket comp on the best shooting that will likely see 2x10 Waywatchers used anyway (see the list Hans used against Curu in the latter's blog), they are that good. Sure, they're not supermen but it's 400pts you're spending, they don't have to do everything for you.

The main reason you will see them in numbers though, is that the army desperately lacked a reliable counter to fast armour lists before and now it has one. This doesn't mean the SH bus is defunct, just that WE's benefit greatly from having a unit that can actually threaten it now. It's early days though, while I expect them to remain in most lists, other twists will emerge and the way WE's play best against each enemy army needs to be worked out before we really know what's what.

Patently false:

Double Steam tank, 8+ DGKs. and light council

6+ chaos single models

Beast of Nurgle + Plague drones

All three are pretty popular and dominant meta

Like I said I'm fairly certain just like every other 8th edition book, WE well trend towards combat. Waywatchers will be a must include but I doubt it will be 20.

I'm confused as to whether you're saying Waywatchers are good or bad against the lists you've given? I'd say they're good: no AS is ace against empire and WoC and multi-shot is good vs beasts. What's not to like?

[SpellArcher]

I am similarly confused. Given that Demigryphs used to run straight over a WE bowline, wouldn't you want lots of armour-ignoring shots? A Daemon Prince has to go down and the best way is by debuffing toughness and WW's. As said, Daemon army also has 25% Core, Furies and often a Greater Daemon. Flies you shoot with poison archers then charge with Wild Riders. The three units complement each other. I fail to see an easy answer to Beasts for any WE army.

[Ferny]

I fail to see an easy answer to Beasts for any WE army.

Eagles and shooting? I haven't seen the new book so based only on rumours I've seen, but presumably cheapest possible redirectors/tarpits and shoot them off when all other priority targets are dealt with? Easier said than done I know...

[SpellArcher]

From my experience with the old Wood Elves you spend both eagles and maybe Dryads slowing them down (you can't re-direct Flies or the LoC). Shooting a unit of 6 was futile. You lacked combat units that could face them (Treemen died too quickly, Treekin if you got lucky with magic).

The problem with poison is you need to remove the Regen first to make much impact on those 4 wounds/model. A unit of Wildwood Rangers with Eternal Flame might make quite a dent but will die in droves too. You probably need a combo-charge and that is hard given how fast Daemons are.

[Baleanoon]

Wood Elves have multiple ways to counter a Spear Horde. Treeman, top spells, pure avoidance, massed shooting. TBH this was true of the old book as well.

2x10 Waywatchers just looks really, really good in general. As Red Panda elucidated, the multi-shot means they don't really have a bad match-up. Even against Daemons you'll be wanting to shoot Furies, Core, Greater Daemons. BS5 and multi-shot means you're only paying 10pts per shot, compared to 12-18 otherwise. Scout and Skirmish means those shots get exactly where you need them to be, usually at a -2 to be hit. They may well be comped but even ETC has a blanket comp on the best shooting that will likely see 2x10 Waywatchers used anyway (see the list Hans used against Curu in the latter's blog), they are that good. Sure, they're not supermen but it's 400pts you're spending, they don't have to do everything for you.

The main reason you will see them in numbers though, is that the army desperately lacked a reliable counter to fast armour lists before and now it has one. This doesn't mean the SH bus is defunct, just that WE's benefit greatly from having a unit that can actually threaten it now. It's early days though, while I expect them to remain in most lists, other twists will emerge and the way WE's play best against each enemy army needs to be worked out before we really know what's what.

Patently false:

Double Steam tank, 8+ DGKs. and light council

6+ chaos single models

Beast of Nurgle + Plague drones

All three are pretty popular and dominant meta

Like I said I'm fairly certain just like every other 8th edition book, WE well trend towards combat. Waywatchers will be a must include but I doubt it will be 20.

I'm confused as to whether you're saying Waywatchers are good or bad against the lists you've given? I'd say they're good: no AS is ace against empire and WoC and multi-shot is good vs beasts. What's not to like?

They can only engage two targets a turn, 10 no AS shots can't kill one Chimera or Gorebeast, and there is only one shadow de-buffs which is also single target. Even in the best case scenario close range, no moving.

10 shots = 1.479 wounds against anything normal T5 chariot. Or 2.871 wounds against typical T4 Mcav. Then you get into double stacking chargers to provide hard cover against S&S.


They are better off like most 8th edition armies finding a way to make combat easily winnable. I think we will likely see one or two units of 6-8 in the future once the new hotness phase cools down. They actually do need Treemen and eagles. The shooting ability of the army hasn't gotten better or worse in terms of effectness its just changed. Why WE struggled in the meta was because their combat was so lackluster. 400 points of Waywatchers doesn't solve that problem or even truly alleviate that problem. There are also problems with the WE player getting 1st turn to maximize the number of rounds of shooting, going second in some games will only get you one round of open target selection.

I'm currently working on a Daemon army with 1x8 2x1 Beast of Nurgle, and 2x5 Plague Drones how would Waywatchers help in this match up at all? Killing furies?


I'm telling you this Waywatcher thing has been blown way out of proportion.

[SpellArcher]

Treemen are no use at all against Daemons or Empire, I've tried them.

Chimerae should be flame-shotted and poisoned, one unit can't do everything. What else deals with MC? Gorebeast too slow to keep the pressure up on an avoidance list. Normal chariots? Probably Wild Riders.

Daemons already stated. 600+ points of Core, Furies (have to kill them somehow), 20 WW are 400pts. Your own Core is busy shooting Drones and single Beasts.

I will continue to run combat troops but there are too many hard counters to them as things stand.

[Baleanoon]

Where are you getting all these different types of shots from? I haven't seen a single list with more than 2 types of arrows in any real effective quantities. Especially since those points are coming from combat units.

Hag/True Guard, maybe a unit of scouts with a random type. But again the problem is the number of targets and number of wounds in these armies, Chaos can drop 6-10 single models with T5, 4+ wounds, 2 with 3++. Gorebeast are surprisingly fast with swiftstride and have been replacing Skullcrushers competitively as they continue to be comped and players gain a hold of how frenzy actually works. Empire put down 4+ all with 10+ wounds.

When wounding on 4's they're good, but after that they just aren't doing enough to negate the effectiveness of peoples units. If you let your WR get charged by 2 DGKs you could lose the unit. I'd rather spend the points to dominate the movement phase.