Is the End in sight for the silver helms bus?

[Baleanoon]

I agree with spell archer about you will always see 2 unit of 10 waywatchers in all competitive lists. i think combine arms is a lot better, and mnore bs shooting, will help in woodies match up, dark elves, civial wars, state troop heavy empire, skaven, some daemon builds,

the double steam tank list. ( is normally comped ).. however if it isn't. ( most wood elf list i have seen ) have been using a lvl 4 shadow. wither one steam tank. pit the other, one all you need to do a steam tank to make it a lot less reliable is to take 3 wounds off it. then it is down too a 50 / 50 roll of the dice if it misfires or not. and if that doesnt work tie it up with eagles, while you shoot the rest. the more scarey empire list, is the double block of 40 halberdiers light council build as there are so many bodies on the table. so some will always make it. and loads of magic missiles.

single mass chaos, dont worry woodies. shoot it. movement 4 troops, that is atleast 3 rounds of shooting before they even have to move. so they pick off the chariots first. then the mass arrows at the warriors, skullcrushers, divert them off the board with the eagles, shoot everything else, then deal with them.

chimera's pop the regen off them with one of 3 characters with flaming bows... then shoot them. the only match i can see them struggling with, is ogres, and vamps... due to the mass amount of monsterous cav they can bring

Scenery.

okay this was a little biased as the wood elf player picked it and picked 2 massive forests. ( + his free one )

but there was a massive building ( blocking line of sight ) he won roll off and pick that side.

there was a massive block of impassible, a pretty large ruin, and massive hill. the terrain played a part, but waywatchers just scoot around it, due to 10 inch move, + 30 inch shot. near impossible to hide.

Well in most comp pack shooting models are also comped by shots or models with 12+ range, so taking 20 (or 40 shots of your maximum number) in rare shooters of your maybe 40 guys with bows isn't exactly a free and clear advantage. If we are speaking strictly competitive, 20 Waywatchers don't help at all against 10 Plague drones and 8 beast of nurgle. Although I'm fairly certain DoC walk all over WEs anyway. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Waywatchers comped anyway.

I don't think you know what single model chaos is... Its DP, 2x 3++ T5 dudes, core chariots, Gorebeast, Chimeras and hellcannons, they aren't any lame frenzied cav or warriors on foot in real competitive chaos lists man... seriously I can't believe you brought up warriors on foot in a competitive discussion...

The bolded only works if the character isn't in the unit, as he would get regen against all the non-flaming shots.

How many pieces on how large a board. A 6x4 needs 5 minimum. 2 should be LoS blocking, also insure you are being careful about measuring arcs, and to hit modifiers individually. I find a lot of players with shooting armies just pick up dice and start rolling. Every shot matters when they are no AS, or double shot, and if s/he is taking shots they shouldn't be they are obviously getting more out of the unit than they should be.

[Toledo Inquisition]

I don't think you know what single model chaos is... Its DP, 2x 3++ T5 dudes, core chariots, Gorebeast, Chimeras and hellcannons, they aren't any lame frenzied cav or warriors on foot in real competitive chaos lists man... seriously I can't believe you brought up warriors on foot in a competitive discussion...

I disagree - if you are playing scenarios. If you play Blood and Glory or Watchtower, units of Chaos Warriors for banners and assulting/holding buildings are very important. If you are only playing Battleline, perhaps.

Heck, I was playing Dwarfs with only 3 warmachines at 3000 points against the list you mentioned (only one 3++ character, but Nurgle DP, core chariots, Chimeras, plus perhaps one weaker unit like a Shagoth) and wiped it out with a balanced Dwarf army.

Look at Nurgle DP, one unit of Skullcrushers, Tzeentch 3++ BSB and no more fortitude. One lucky trebuchet, rock lobba, VC scream, a couple DE bolt throwers, etc. and the game could be over in the top of the first in Blood and Glory with a "net" list.

Chaos Warriors, or even, gasp, Chosen or Forsaken, can be very good with the right general.

Oh, I don't play comp at all, so I've seen many of the most evil lists out there.

[Jimmy]

Lastly, a High elf competitive list by default comes with 4 RBTs

Nonsense.

US Masters winner?
SM's Masters list?

[Curu Olannon]

Lastly, a High elf competitive list by default comes with 4 RBTs

Nonsense.

US Masters winner?
SM's Masters list?

What about them? US Masters was 15bp behind the best general. I don`t know SM`s Masters list nor do I know its results. I assume it doesn`t have a bus however so neither of these are relevant to the topic at hand.

[Ferny]

Does Seredain's list have 4xRBTs?

I've certainly seen discussion on Druchii and SM's threads that 4 can start to get their firing lines choked by troops, although I don't know if that would be so much the case in a bus list. I'm not sure that 4 would be obligatory though - we have other shooty options with sisters, reaver and core archers, and we have decent frostys competing in rare, and unless walked through it I don't see why any of these couldn't be decent support options for a bus instead of a mandatory 4xRBT?

[Rommel44]

Yes the WE have good shooting, however I recently played a game against the WE's at 3,000 points, and I had a bus of 17x Silver Helms w/my prince, as well as a horde of 50x Spearmen, 2x units of 21x White Lions, 1x unit of 29x w/BOTWD, 4x BT, and 2x Eagles. He had the 2x unit of 10x Waywatchers, as well as some units of Glade Riders and Glad Guard, as wel as a decent sized unit of Wild Riders and a horde of 40x Eternal Guard. Naturally, he began targeting my Silver Helms w/ his Waywatchers, while he focused the remaining shooting at my White Lions to weaken them up. However, he completely ignored my Spearmen until they where right in his face, and by then, his Eternal Guard where depleted due to my Magic and shooting, and I was able to beat them in combat and from there, as I just began to smack down his units one at a time, resulting in a victory for the HE.

It can be frustrating to lose models due to there shooting, but from what I have seen, WE still have an issue when dealing with big blocks of Core Infantry, as they have to focus there shooting at it in order to weaken it, which then allows our Special and Cav units to move up unopposed. The new WE are a lot better then what they where, but they are far from being unbeatable, as although they can do a lot of damage, they are a lot more fragile then we are and even with all of there Fast Cav and redirecting shenanigans, they will still struggle against armies with a lot of cheap units running around.

Will be playing his list again so I will tell you how it goes, as I might mix it up and run some archers in the list to test them out.

[Curu Olannon]

@Ferny - I have no idea what Seredain is running these days. Last I heard he had swapped WL/SM for PG, apart from that I don`t know. I still don`t believe his list holds up against gunlines though and until I`ve seen him face one with a good player behind it it`s impossible to evaluate the approach properly.

Bear in mind that when you are running a true bus, you either do it alongside an infantry unit (see Furion`s thread), as a hammer (with lots of characters) or in support of a Star Dragon. In all of these cases, you have enough points to fit 4 RBTs. For the hammer/star dragon, the math is pretty easy: 1200 in characters, 600 in core, 520 in RBTs + Frostie. This leaves points for an Eagle, a unit of Sisters or Shadow Warriors, depending on your preference.

Of course variations do exist, but the point is that this is what you can expect by default. As for troops choking firing points, of course this will be true when you bring 10 units you want to run wide with. That is not the case in question however, a bus has a very small footprint relative to its power and most reasonable tables have hills which at least partially makes it easier on your RBTs.

[Jimmy]

Lastly, a High elf competitive list by default comes with 4 RBTs

Nonsense.

US Masters winner?
SM's Masters list?

What about them? US Masters was 15bp behind the best general. I don`t know SM`s Masters list nor do I know its results. I assume it doesn`t have a bus however so neither of these are relevant to the topic at hand.

Wait a minute - just because a list doesn't win every single game doesn't mean it's not competitive wouldn't you agree?

Secondly your blanket statement was simply answered by my blanket statement.

[Curu Olannon]

A couple of years ago I wrote a lengty post about my thoughts on this matter, link can be found here: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=39386

The TL;DR version of it is that a list sporting a single victory like the US Masters one is largely a testament to player skill rather than the list`s competitive abilities. It depends on how you define the terms, really. To me, a competitive list is a list that is inherently strong enough to win a tournament without being very lucky with matchups throughout. I also wrote a lot about my own list in light of this after my most recent tournament (link here: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 71#p877771). With any other matchup in the final game, I would`ve likely finished within 15bp of the winning player. I still don`t consider that list to be competitive. As for the US Masters one, I think it has potential but I need to see it in more action. Regardless it is not cavbus-oriented, which was the context here.

As far as cavbusses go, of course you can play 3 rbt and some sisters instead. That`s not the point though, the point is that "by default" such a list has 4 RBTs. From this, variations appear but in a nutshell they all do the same: provide significant firing support which is more than capable of threatening a dangerous WE unit at a distance.

Oh and I just realized MangoPunch had replied as well. As I said, model the Frostheart on the ground. If you play with a system that lets you model abuse then by all means do so.

Lastly, on topic: the Bus is not dead because it is potent. The fact that you cannot effectively run a small unit of Helms to provide a combat Prince with 1 turn with Look Out, Sir! does not mean other variations can`t work. With the introduction of new Dwarfs and WE, bigger units are most certainly called for, but then again if you commit to a combat prince in the first place your list will largely be dictated by this choice. Part of this is accepting that some shooty matchups will be hard, just the same as taking a Star Dragon means that cannons will be hard.

[gaz]

US Masters was 15bp behind the best general

I think you're thinking of the the Crossroads winner (I believe the US Masters winner was decided based purely on BPs).
It's worth noting that the Crossroads winner (overall not general) lost a lot of potential BPs when his silver helm character bus ran off the table after being hit by the best general's trebuchet (also boosting the best general winner up a lot of BPs). Given he lost the game (and lost hard) pretty much entirely as a result of failing a rerollable ld 10 panic test (that wasn't easily avoidable), it's likely the list (and general) was capable of winning the tournament with a little bit more luck.

That said, Curu's previous point about the necessary size of the bus may be relevant here as a larger bus would be harder to panic.

[Rommel44]

Agreed. The fact that many people seem to forget is that there really isn't "one list beats all" kind of army, as every list is strong against some opponents and weak against others. The Silver Helm Bus is far from dead, as it is a solid unit that can be effective against every army out there, with the only difference being the different level of effectiveness depending on the army you are facing. Thats just the common fact in this edition, and it has played a part in how I have built my army. Overall, for most armies, shooting units have become overpriced for what they do, as GW wants Fantasy to be a game more about CC, however some armies will do better then others in that reguard, and WE's are supposed to be the best shooting list out there. But although they can shoot a lot and they have some units that can hit extremely hard, they are very fragile and cannot hold up in CC at all, which can be exploited. That's what I did when I played my game against WE's. Gave him some targets, in ths case, my Silver Helms and WL's, to shoot at while my other units, my Spearmen and BOTWD WL units, moved into position for the win.

[pk-ng]

I think most of have covered it but definitely threatening them with MM and counterfire is a good way to reduce WW's effective.

I agree the WW will be in every competitive list for WE. They have such good utility MS(2) and no AS.

[cptcosmic]

the tempest spell might start to become useful

[Prince of Spires]

A couple of years ago I wrote a lengty post about my thoughts on this matter, link can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=66&t=39386

While in theory you may be right, to me saying this is a bit of a cop-out. You can always use this argument then to say that a list is not optimal while one you believe is optimal is for whatever reason. There simply are too many different lists out there in too many different meta's with too many different comp pack and not enough tournaments to use any sensible statistics on army lists (which is what you seem to want here).

Part of player skill is making an army list that works for you (or making an army list work for you). But saying that a list that has won a tournament (or perform well in several tournaments to win the US masters) is not a good list but just player skill is simply ignoring whatever evidence there is simply because you don't like the outcome. To win a tournament (or to get a top 5 top 10 finish, depending on the tournament size), you need a strong list combined with a strong player. A list that is not competitive is just that, not competitive. And I think it is safe to assume player skill in more then just 1 player in a tournament (especially in the US masters). Which means you need a competitive list. So, 4 RBT are not compulsory. And from what I've seen, they are actually not in most competitive HE lists.

As for the cav bus. It depends in part on if you are playing an all-commers list and how many WE you expect to face. When you are building a list specifically to play WE, then the SH bus is probably not the best choice out there. But that is no reason not to have them in an all-commers list since there are more opponents then WE out there. And they still work just as well vs the other armies (or even better if people drop heavily armoured units because of WE).

Counters are there in things that easily deal with S3 T3 models. Archers, spearmen, and magic missiles. A loremaster is probably golden vs WE. Especially when backed up by a lvl2 high caster. Lore wise, on a lvl 4, if you are specifically countering WE high or fire are great I think. And then a combination of fast and tough stuff. So some reavers and PG.

Rod

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Lastly, a High elf competitive list by default comes with 4 RBTs

Nonsense.

US Masters winner?
SM's Masters list?

By default my list is not competitive, Jimmy.

Justine, US Masters winner, had 3 RBT's. A pity he didn't join the conversation and didn't share his thoughts in general but I am told he was discouraged by the comments of many forum members. Shame.

Good to know that HE competitive list has to has cavalry bus. I wonder what Tethlis would say about it

I also wonder who can decide what competitive HE list (or any list for that matter) should consist of. I imagine that player should be regular tournament player (as we talk about competitive lists). What is more, I believe he should play at tournaments with different players packs (so that he has broad experience and is not focus on a single option). I guess it is also safe to assume he should regularly place high, possibly win tournaments more often than not. Even then, I believe, such person may add that particular list has good chances in particular environment but not necessarily in all of them.

@ MartinElf

I think you face a very similar problem as other players who put their trust in knights do. I have observed some games they had against WE so hopefully I can add some comments that may provide some food for thoughts.

First of all, I would consider if you could play differently with the very same army list as you had to increase your chances of winning the game regardless. Changing the army list is easy and seems to be straightforward. However, your list has been good so far and you have probably learned how to use it against other armies already. if you incorporate changes to the army list it means that your previous successful strategies might not work any more.

Second, you learn more from the mistakes and how to use the tool your army list is by using the same tool. There are other options to deploy your troops, maybe that can be changed? For example, I understood that your opponent won first turn. I don't know who finished the deployment first but even if you had +1 bonus to the roll-off, maybe it was worth considering to position your bus at 36" so that he cannot shoot at you with all the longbows he has? It is sometimes better to prepare for worse case scenario, even if the odds are better for you.

What about formations of the units? I have seen, for instance, some players using their light cavalry to form a line with 5 models but formed in a single file. That helps them to provide hard cover to more than one unit. And since you can free reform it means that you can move quickly in your turn anyway. They are not more resilient than in regular formation but 2 lines of these, for example, have to be dealt first in order to open the path to the main target. it may be it was not the option in your game or maybe it would not help anyway but I my point is that you could look at formations and deployments that have a chance to lower the probability of being hit.

Now, how to combat WE with what you have or even with the suggested changes. As it was said your own shooting can hurt WE too. However, assuming all 4 RBT's (if you take them) can all shoot at WW and hit on 5+ is silly. It assumes that no units intervene, that there is no terrain, that all 4 can actually target the same enemy unit etc.

What 4 RBT's give you, however, is the opportunity to hurt the enemy before they can hurt you. if deployed further than WE range (I mean GG) and protected from scouts (so that they cannot be charged early) they can hurt regular units. You might actually start shooting at his GG too in some kind of shooting match. Why would you do that? First, that gives you better chance to inflict casualties, second, may earn you victory points and third, nobody likes to be shot at. Some players may start feeling nervous when they have to take casualties too. If you start shooting at targets with -2, -3 to hit modifiers then your potential may be wasted. While shooting at targets that can be hurt and even eliminated, simply makes it more as punch for punch game.

What I observed from other games is that when the enemy simply rushed at WE with their armoured might (I believe I witnessed that in Furion's game against Italian ETC player) they failed to reach the goal. Their cavalry bus is more resilient and can be healed back but still they suffered heavy casualties. It was because the VC player didn't use the screen and didn't make sure the other wood was occupied so GG with characters could use the Moonstone.

In another game, Silver Helms and two dragons were chasing the small unit of Sisters with characters and again, without screen they were shot to pieces.

The game I witnessed that saw the player winning against WE was with WoC. That player hid 2 out of 3 characters who normally operate alone (daemonic mounts I believe) in a unit of tzeentch warriors. That meant he was slower but his characters lived. He placed his tough lord in positions where he could threat his units but was able to use cover for protection too. In order to protect his advance he sent crushers and chimera at the GG (also with some cover to prevent early losses) to attract attention. Both units died in 2 turns but what WoC player achieved was the fact the WE divided his fire between some targets. At the same time he could use his own shooting in the form of Hellcannon to target the fragile skirmishers of WE army. In the end he had only 3 characters standing but he managed to catch elven bunker. Tzeentch warriors in the meantime defeated Wild Riders because thanks to clever positioning WE player was not able to charge them with both his cavalry squadrons.

I understand that it is not easy to learn from other armies as they have different tools. But what worked for that player was:

1. He managed to occupy his enemy with units that were immediate but not the biggest threat.

2. He had his characters well screened and managed to force his opponent to divide his attention.

3. He used terrain to minimize the casualties.

4. He was persistent with his advance despite heavy losses and while pushing hard he was not reckless and he finally cornered the enemy.

I hope you can use some of the above.

Good Luck!

[Curu Olannon]

You keep pulling words out of thin air. I never said that a competitive High Elf list has to include a cavbus. I believe this is a faulty premise regardless as I have seen Coven lists work very well, for example. As far as cavbus lists go however, the successful ones I know of sport RBTs in significant numbers. Whether it's 3 or 4 isn't the point, nor is it essential, the point is that when you write such a list you start by 4 and to reduce this you need a good reason.

Nobody can decide for anyone else what a competitive list is. I simply explain how I use the term. It's quite simple actually, if I believe a list can win a tournament against other strong players with strong lists, then it's competitive. If it cannot, then it isn't. The funny thing about this is that it's a lot easier to refute a list as being not competitive (see my SM analysis for example) than it is to prove that it is.

As for rushing WE, it can be done. It depends on your configuration however, not every list can do it. While tactics are crucial to successfully performing such a rush, building flexibility into the list in the first place is extremely important as otherwise your tactics will be limited. This is the main reason why I'm a big advocate of RBTs and magic missiles in a bus/dragon list (board control being the other main reason), in a mathcup like this they make a huge difference.

[SpellArcher]

To rewind a little, I've never seen a comp system with a 40-shot cap. 70, maybe. I know ETC are currently throwing ideas around regarding certain enchanted arrows. I'd be surprised if they end up with something that doesn't allow at least 15 WW's while keeping the other archer load-out you need. Plus of course, most games worldwide are played under less or no comp.

With the new book I'd still be more worried about a Warriors list with Crushers than with Gorebeasts/Hellcannon. It's got more threats going forward and even a Waywatcher/Shadow list will have it's hands full killing the DP. As SM said, foot warriors have uses but Blood and Glory is not such an issue when you can just stick standards on existing units. I still don't think it's a good idea to have 2/3 characters in an M5 bunker here, even with Moonstone, especially when WE's have other options available.

As I understand it, the US Masters winning list has also been successful under other comps. RBT are clearly very useful against WE but Archers are Core and does the WE player really want to spend his time shooting 10pt models that kill almost as much as his 15-18 pt ones? In general I'd rather have small units of Helms than Reavers in this match-up because they will demand Waywatcher attention. If you have Reavers for all-comers though, screening a bus is definitely an idea. The bottom line is that shooting, MM's and fast threats that are not trivial to shoot will put the pressure on WE's. I don't believe M5 infantry will because few WE lists will have static units like the 40 EG block that they can catch.

[Curu Olannon]

For reference, could someone post the US Masters list? I think I must have been confusing it with the Crossroads GT one, I`m not sure which is which ^^

[Lord Anathir]

It really depends on the comp pack, but if its allowed and not hit hard there is no excuse not to have 4 rbt except maybe in dragon + dual frosties list offensive list. Rbt bring so much to the army for so cheap its silly, almost stupid, to not have them.

[Findolfin]

My take on this is that it will be a hard match up for a cav list or combined arms army. I faced a wood elf bow line before and even with their old book, my infantry blocks were not able to engage in time and my bows / bolters at BS 4 did little to his units hidden behind fences, forest and the likes. They also shredded my helm bus to pieces without all the new toys they just got.

I’ve learned to deal with such gun line situation by switching to my double 15 strong bus list for a basic target saturation ( Offering 2 targets is still a lot better than one) , having fast cav , reserve infantry to back up depleted bus and enough archery to kill off chaffs.

But looking at all that WE anti-armor, I’m not so certain now that I can guarantee one of my bus will get there. My 10 archers, 10 sisters, 2 rbts would be akin to 4 rbts but honestly, I do not see them able to supress the wood elves fire. In practice, theses woodie guys will use MSU, have better BS, can move/march and shoot, use forest for cover which all makes it hard to put a dent at range or to engage as they outmanoeuver us.

Realistically, BS 4 will not cut it, be it archers or bolt throwers you will still be at long range and have to deal with cover /skirmish if he knows how to play. Sisters could be a good answer but that 24’’ range means they could die first. We don’t have templates. Magic missiles and MSU seems the best answer. I’ve been thinking lately about throw away shadow warriors units ( 5-6 models ) to tie into place targets for my cav charge, unfortunately you can’t charge first turn ( yet still shoot ) but turn 2 onward, I am wondering if they could do well enough in cc to tie theses 10 model units so they can’t shoot turn 2 or even beat them on their own. I’m thinking 2 front 3 deep formation. Just brainstorming here.

[SpellArcher]

I don't think you need to outshoot the WE's. Just provide some sort of counter-threat to stop them focusing their resources entirely as they please.

[Seredain]

Personally I'm a great believer in 'live and let live' when it comes to our rare choices, but for myself I'm actually quite firmly in the '4 RBT unless good reason' camp at the moment. So far I've kept it down to 3 so I can pop regen with sisters. However, since the switch to the High Magic / Phoenix Guard / Ring of Fury combo (a loadout which, along with the large core archers, sets me up rather nicely for wood elves), I haven't worried about regen units so much as I can break them on the elites' 3+ ward without relying on doing a huge number of wounds. I'm therefore pretty tempted to drop the 5 sisters and take the extra range, universal AP and flexi-shot that the extra repeater brings (once I get it painted up).

I have yet to play new woodies, but I suppose a very simple way to stop your characters getting wiped is to deploy them with shooting-resistant infantry because, without cannons, WE can't snipe them without dedicating characters for the purpose (and of which I am much less afraid than I am of WW). The helm bus then turns into a large fast core unit perfect for running over light troops without exposing you to major lossess against the watchers. Meanwhile, access to bolt throwers, core longbows, Walk Between Worlds, Hand of Glory and magic missiles gives us plenty of ways of taking these nasty units out. Our armoured characters get a lot scarier once the armour-snipers are knocked out, and our army has more ways to do this than most.

I recommend Tethlis' latest batreps to anyone looking for tips - they're a great read and very informative.

[Eltherion2]

+1 to no

I used 2 units of 6 Silver helms vs. WE's and they drew a lot of fire. One unit got into a big block of Dryads eventually winning with support. Both units died to a man.

The Tactics I will employ in future is to try and knockout the Waywatchers with Magic Missiles while keeping the Silverhelms away.

Also get the Silverhelms in to combat ASAP.

[cptcosmic]

HE can field equally annoying shooting phase at 2400 points while still having a strong melee presence

archmage lvl 4 with BoH and 4+ ward (leader of the gang)

noble bsb on barded steed with dragon armor, sword of might, enchanted shield, ToTS and Golden Crown (someone has to do the moral duty)
handmaiden with reaver bow, potion of strength and charmed shield (boobs for LD boost )

14 helms full command (brave nobility with armor, what is not to like? + guards for the noble)
3 x 5 reavers with bows (troll squad nr. 1 )

20 White Lions full command and banner of the derp (manly dudes with axes and fur coats + guards for archmage)
2 Kitty Karts (because lions are cool)

2 eagles (troll squad nr. 2)
14 Sisters (more boobs & guards for handmaiden)
4 RBT (pew pew)

I can imagine that this list could be quite annoying to face if you cant get rid of the eagles or reavers playing cat and mouse with you while a hail of arrows and bolts fly in your face.

[Stormie]

Do you think it’s possible to keep a cavalry bus in reserve? Deploy them in the corner, use turns 1-3 to root out and kill off the Waywatchers and then advance rapidly for the final three turns. In fact, in this matchup, most people seem to be assuming the cav bus is a bunch of Silver Helms containing 2+ mounted characters. But why do the characters have to go in the cavalry unit anyway? Did GW sneak a cannon on the back of the new Treeman model or something? Ahh I see Seredain's also suggested this, nice

Deploy your mounted characters on the edges of your infantry, and advance strongly up the centre, keeping a powerful LD bubble in the right place. Nothing in the Wood Elf army will be able to touch those characters (although, feel free to allocate 1 normal/flaming shooting attack per batch of hits onto your 1+ re-rollable save characters to save your rank and file’s lives), and you might even want to charge out a character per turn at the occasional juicy target- just make sure the Waywatchers are dead by then

A unit of 12 Silver Helms is, what, 300 points? If the Waywatchers do smash them up in 2 turns, then it’s a shame but you can afford the loss of 300 points and still crush the enemy, for sure.

[MartinElf]

@ Swordmasters

thanks for your comments .

i have said in this thread, most prob got lost, that the helms were screened by reavers as you have said, and some terrain in the front, but they got shot off, then the screen was gone, and then the helms were shot to death.

First things i have said.

i no way have i said it impossible for them to use. my friend did get stupidly lucky with shots at times but it happens, in the game, my lvl 4 of heavens was power drained by 3 level from there very first spell of the game which did not help.

my deployment was terrible, which didnt help. he was stupidly lucky / me unlucky doing 7 wounds to the frostie in 2 rounds of shooting, and me failing to save 6 of them dead frostie, if the frostie didnt die to the stand and shoot reaction his character bunker and archer block were in serve trouble as the turn after i would of charged the phoniex guard in. i also failed a flank charge with an eagle into his waywatchers, needed a 5 !!!. i the eagle had made it in and held for a turn, the frostie would of been at them turn 2 , i also cast a ring of fury at them, did 10 hits, but only managed 3 wounds, there were lots of 1's and 2's in the dice so a lot of things didnt go my way. however the power of waywatchers was all to be seen.


this is not about the game i played . as i played it awful . my list wasnt good enough, and i played it wrong. so one result.

i am still on the fence with 4 RBT's i have been using 2 for a long time now, and more is always better, however i agree with the points made, in an infantry heavy list, it can be hard to get clear shots, and if you cant get clear shots with all 4, then dont take them. so with 2 big blocks of infantry, and 2 units of 15 archers, and a silverhelm bus all to fit in my deployment, its going be a very tough ask. so i may stick with 2, and get a level 1 fire wizard instead

i also think units of 2 tiranoc chariots have there place, 8 wounds, 2 d6 impact hits, 21 inch charge range, 5's to wound from wood elf bow fire. they will take some heat off the bus, if deployed correctly.

@stormie

i also agree with what you say about mounted characters. it be very sensivle to deploy the mounted bsb in with banner of the world dragon unit, and then march a long, and when close enough, charge some of the true flight units, would 100% recomend doing this tactic, yes your 12 silver helms are going die, but if you got no characters, and use them as battering ram, and taking fire off your actually stuff your going to use to kill then great

[Stormie]

I don't understand how it could get to the position of your entire bus AND characters shot to death in 2 turns. That means he must have had a good first turn's shooting- so why didn't you take the hint and run your characters 18" to the nearest infantry unit? Literally, adapt or die. I guess it must've been quite shocking to see Wood Elves so strong, I haven't fought em yet.

[MartinElf]

I don't understand how it could get to the position of your entire bus AND characters shot to death in 2 turns. That means he must have had a good first turn's shooting- so why didn't you take the hint and run your characters 18" to the nearest infantry unit? Literally, adapt or die. I guess it must've been quite shocking to see Wood Elves so strong, I haven't fought em yet.

the bsb survived i did run him to the nearest infantry unit, where he lived, i was aggressive with the other one trying take some fire and moved him solo, to try and get some rear / flank charges, however he died to a IF spirit leach, so i never got to see that.

his first turn was stupidly good.

Killed 5 reavers from 10 shots, ( true flight guys ) to removed -2 modifer for the other units of waywatchers

10 waywatchers at hardcover of bus, from terrain ( needing 5's ) killed 4, and the other 10 not at hardcover need 4's ( moved longed range ) killed 6 more. so i had 2 left after turn 1.

also bit of a mistake from my part, i thought he had taken dwellers on his level 4 ( not sure why he didnt ). however i let him cast regrowth on his waywatchers after i had shot them for a bit, and had killed 5 of them, and brought them all back, he had moved his level 4, just within 24 inches of the swordmasters so i thought he must have dwellers

[Tethlis]

I try to make my statements based off of tabletop experience, simply because there are so many variations and permutations of this game that it's very difficult for all of us to enter a discussion with the same expectations. Nods to the all the players in this thread. I continue to learn a lot from your contributions, and discussions of this nature. Seredain, thanks for comment regarding batreps. Check for my thread in the tactics discussion on Asrai for something that's more up-to-date. I'm behind in updating my thread here.

Responses with regard to HE fighting WE:
-In tandem with Swordmaster's comment about my list... HE infantry can be highly effective against WE, because they have strong resilience and a higher Wound count against ranged missile fire compared to other options. The question of being able to "catch" opposing threats is a good one, but it is not necessarily the challenge that many players think it is. Not everything in a WE army has the mobility of Scout Skirmishers and Fast Cavalry. Yes, Scouts, Waywatchers, Fast Cav, etc. are hard to pin down, but the WE Core seems deliberately built to make sure an opponent has something that gives up points to an opposing general. I believe that's why Dryads received their nerf, why Scouts were moved to Special, etc.

Specifically, Glade Guard are extremely static, so unless a player builds purely for avoidance and doesn't take Glade Guard, he's forced to either limit the avoidance/mobility of his army, or limit his volume of bowfire. Either one is an advantage for HE players. If there are Glade Guard on the table, it gives us units that infantry can catch and beat. If the Glade Guard are not on the table, and someone features only Glade Riders in Core (haven't heard of anyone doing this, but it's been discussed) then that heavily restricts the shooting effectiveness that WE have. So I think it's important to state that WE can have lots of firepower, or lots of avoidance, but not both, because Glade Guard are easy to catch.

-I believe the Helm bus can remain viable, but I fully agree it needs supporting missile fire plus additional chaff units to cover it. I think that Reaver screens don't necessarily do the job now either; they can be removed with Glade Guard or Scout bows, leaving the Bus itself vulnerable to Waywatchers. I actually think the Bus setup may want to be modified to include the primary big Helm Bus unit, with multiple min-sized Helm units as screens. This min-sized helms will be highly resistant to non-Waywatchers bows, meaning that Waywatchers need to dedicate a shooting phase to removing the screen, reducing the number of shots hitting the bus itself. This setup also has broader tournament application, since min-sized Helm units are generally very useful as a utility unit, but can also screen against the rising number of BS-based shooting we're seeing (Dark Elves, Dwarves, etc.)

-Deployment is key, for very obvious reasons. A HE player asleep at the wheel (i.e. a player who is negligent and not paying attention) will be caught out and have his Helms and RBTs shot down due to vulnerable deployment. Helms, obviously, should be screened. RBTs should be deployed at the back of the table edge to protect against Turn 1 or Turn 2 Hagbane Poison taking them down, and also screened to protect against Waywatcher multiple shot looking to score a couple 6s to Wound. Very basic steps, but steps that HE players may not be expecting because they aren't accustomed to armor-ignoring shooting. Similarly, as Seredain mentioned, you may not want to deploy characters with the Bus if you're concerned they can't survive what the opponent will throw at you. If your opponent rolls up Withering and is itching to 6-dice it, you may want to stash characters in separate units in the same way you would when fighting Dwellers. Remain flexible and creative is just as important as relying on a strong build. Flexibility in lists encourages creativity, and creativity can be an edge if you think you're about to hard-countered.

Bottom line: I don't think the Helm Bus is worthless, but I think the traditional support units that it utilizes need to be modified to give it defensive screens as long as possible. I do agree that 4 RBTs (or 3 RBT + lots of Sisters) are a competitive staple, and remain highly valuable versus Wood Elves. I disagree that the Helm Bus is a necessity for competitive HE play, but as I mentioned, many of us are playing in different environments with different expectations. My experiences won't necessarily match those of Anathir or Swordmaster. Hell, I can get in my car and one tank of gas will put me in a completely different environment where my experience and list will surprise and be surprised by opposing setups. It's important to remember that no matter how prepared tournament players may be, there is always going to be some variation in the lists they bring. Players will not perfectly agree on what is "optimal". 8th edition books encourage this kind of variety (HEs especially so, since we have multiple builds all proven to work), and different comp and tournament packets encourage even further diversity. Even highly polished lists with good competitive tools will not be identical to one another, since they're a product of the generals who use them and the environment in which they practice (or the tourney environment that they anticipate.)

[Curu Olannon]

First of all: nobody`s claiming that you need a silver helm bus to have a competitive list. However, such a unit is the heart of this topic and should thus be the premise for discussing tactics.

Which leads us to the RBTs, for obvious reasons. Regardless of how you run a silver helm bus, chances are you`ll be filling up characters to the max, which leaves 600 points after core tax is payed @2400 games. Now you can go double-frostheart (depending on comp), shooting heavy, or a mix of the 2 for supporting your bus. All of these options are viable against Wood Elves, with the shooting heavy (i.e. no frostheart) probably being the worst in this particular matchup. Variations do of course exist, but that`s not the point: the point is what a default configuration allows you to do, to help players understand just why these configurations are default. With 4 RBTs, you pose a threat that is impossible to replicate in any other way. As has been pointed out, they will never get to shoot with needing 5s to hit (not all of them at the same time at least), but this is because a good player will respect the danger which an RBT hitting on 5s presents. Thus, they allow you to create certain no-go zones on the table where your opponent simply cannot place his Waywatchers. This is very valuable, as even if they`re not even targeting the Waywatchers when the game begins, they`ve helped your bus` survivability.

If you`re not really running a bus but more of a minimal character bunker such as Seredain, you have an infantry unit which you can skip your characters to. Against Wood Elves this is an easy and safe move to perform, the only downside is that you`re limited to M5.

So to conclude, the bus is not dead. You need to think about what tactics the rest of your list allows you play however. You can`t just stack a number of characters in a huge unit of Helms and expect to only have good matchups. When you face an army such as Wood Elves, which are not trivial to counter, it`s time to start looking at how your support elements can maximise their value. There is no silver bullet here as terrain, specific lists and comp packs / scenarios all play a difference, but a few rules of thumb exist, such as the RBT scenario described above, which is indeed what makes these configurations default. Flexibility, adaptability, reliability are key terms here. A one-dimensional list will always be at the mercy of matchups, and while Warhammer is inherently very rock-paper-scissors like in nature, some lists have more polarized matchups than others. Indeed, overpowered elements allow you to simply forgo this fact and do well regardless (triple-bloodletter block with heralds from last DoC book spring to mind), but apart from these (of which HE arguably don`t have any) you need to take steps to ensure your list isn`t that one-dimensional to be successful.