Why the Hate on Spearmen and Core Units?

[Rommel44]

Hey mates. Played a 3,000 point game recently against WOC and during the deployment, my opponent was surprised to see me place down a Horde of 49x Spearmen w/my BSB, as well as a unit of 14x Archers and a unit of 20x Silver Helms, who where w/a Mounted Noble (7x3 formation). Apparently, he has never seen that much Core in a HE army in awhile, as ALL HE players tend to run the minimum Core Requirement and then blow points on all of the Elite and Character choice of the HE army. Now granted, I have done that for the longest time as well, but I have started to take more Core options to try something new, and so far I have been surprised at how effective our Core Units can be. And even then, I am still able to take 2x solid blocks of 21x White Lions and a unit of 27x Swordmasters w/the Everqueen in the unit, along with 2x Eagles and 2x Bolt Throwers.

That being said, most common Core Unit taken in HE lists is Archers, as is a solid fire-base to take away Chaff Units and harass opponents with Bow fire, yet lately I have noticed that very few HE players take Spearmen anymore. To be frank, I believe to many people overlook them, as they are not only our cheapest unit, but they can provide a solid block of troops to support the Elite Units in your army. And in my area, there are a lot of Horde Armies in Skaven, Undead, Empire, and Orcs and Goblins, so having a nice block of spears is beneficial, as they can go toe to toe with most armies Core Units and come out on top.

As for the Silver Helms, yes I could drop them in favor of Dragon Princes, however not really a fan of them as I would only be able to field a small unit of them as they are super expensive to run, whereas with Silver Helms, I can get a lot more bodies and run a bigger unit of them, but still utilize all of the attacks thanks to the martial prowess rules, which would be wasted on DP. Plus, DP die just as easily as Silver Helms from what I have seen and my experience, so i just don't find them worth the points, as Silver Helms are a good Medium Cavalry who can also pack a lot of punch.

Anyways, that's just my take on it but I am wondering if HE have to be an Army where we just take the minimal amount of Core in favor of our elites to be effective? Just my thoughts on that mates.

[Bashtrigger]

I think what you're talking about refers to the old army book, where you would really want as little core as possible. In this army book, with the new rules and cheaper core, not to mention core cavalry, core is very viable and quite a bit stronger than they used to be.

[Rommel44]

I think what you're talking about refers to the old army book, where you would really want as little core as possible. In this army book, with the new rules and cheaper core, not to mention core cavalry, core is very viable and quite a bit stronger than they used to be.

I am actually referring to this book lol. Reason is that many HE apparently still only take the minimal amount of Core needed and spend the rest on other units. That being said, Spearmen still are the least used Core from what I have seen, and Silver Helms in my opinion are more worth it then then DP.

[Bashtrigger]

I think what you're talking about refers to the old army book, where you would really want as little core as possible. In this army book, with the new rules and cheaper core, not to mention core cavalry, core is very viable and quite a bit stronger than they used to be.

I am actually referring to this book lol. Reason is that many HE apparently still only take the minimal amount of Core needed and spend the rest on other units. That being said, Spearmen still are the least used Core from what I have seen, and Silver Helms in my opinion are more worth it then then DP.

Well, I use core, and I think there will be others using it as well. I think it's just the habit of taking least amounts of core possible. And the reason I take archers over spearmen, is because you're essentially just paying 1pnt for the ability to shoot, you still attack 4 deep in a horde and you have the same stats (although less armour, but how often does that little bit of armour actually come into effect). The way you're fielding them, they might actually make use of being able to attack 5 deep.

[RE.Lee]

Our core choices are clearly inferior to most of what we can pick up in special/rare - thats why people tend to run minimal core. Having said that - our grunts are far from useless. The Silver Helms make decent cavalry buses and work pretty well as heavy chaff. Archers are ok as far as BS shooting units go (though Glade Guard put them to shame...). Spearmen I love, but they just die to quickly to really be an anvil and hordes of light troops are not really the in thing where I live.

[John Rainbow]

Our core choices are clearly inferior to most of what we can pick up in special/rare - thats why people tend to run minimal core. Having said that - our grunts are far from useless. The Silver Helms make decent cavalry buses and work pretty well as heavy chaff. Archers are ok as far as BS shooting units go (though Glade Guard put them to shame...). Spearmen I love, but they just die to quickly to really be an anvil and hordes of light troops are not really the in thing where I live.

I second this assessment.

We have much more utility in other units. In my mind spears lose out to our elites as they perform better in the same role without the need for as much magical support (SMs more killy, PG more of an anvil). Archers also do almost exactly the same job as a big block of spears with martial prowess and also shoot which is a bonus.

Archers are ok in certain lists and fill a role that not many other units in the book can cover.

Reavers are amazing, we need redirectors and chaff as a book and these are the go to unit given that they are in core. I think this more than anything is what relegated so many eagles back to the shelf.

Silver Helms suck on their own. They always disappoint (or at least mine do) as they hit like a damp flannel and don't actually have that much staying power either after round 1 of CC. They do however provide great ablative wounds to a combat character or fill a role as redirectors/small CC units that can kill a warmachine, hence why they are found either in a big bus or in small units of 5 or so.

I use to like LSG in the last edition but now, more than ever with martial prowess I think they are too expensive and lose out to the other more focussed units that fill the same roles.

So, as most others have said, our core units have roles they can full but they are somewhat limited and therefore core is usually minimized in most successful competitive lists.

[Bashtrigger]

Our core choices are clearly inferior to most of what we can pick up in special/rare - thats why people tend to run minimal core. Having said that - our grunts are far from useless. The Silver Helms make decent cavalry buses and work pretty well as heavy chaff. Archers are ok as far as BS shooting units go (though Glade Guard put them to shame...). Spearmen I love, but they just die to quickly to really be an anvil and hordes of light troops are not really the in thing where I live.

I second this assessment.

We have much more utility in other units. In my mind spears lose out to our elites as they perform better in the same role without the need for as much magical support (SMs more killy, PG more of an anvil). Archers also do almost exactly the same job as a big block of spears with martial prowess and also shoot which is a bonus.

Archers are ok in certain lists and fill a role that not many other units in the book can cover.

Reavers are amazing, we need redirectors and chaff as a book and these are the go to unit given that they are in core. I think this more than anything is what relegated so many eagles back to the shelf.

Silver Helms suck on their own. They always disappoint (or at least mine do) as they hit like a damp flannel and don't actually have that much staying power either after round 1 of CC. They do however provide great ablative wounds to a combat character or fill a role as redirectors/small CC units that can kill a warmachine, hence why they are found either in a big bus or in small units of 5 or so.

I use to like LSG in the last edition but now, more than ever with martial prowess I think they are too expensive and lose out to the other more focussed units that fill the same roles.

So, as most others have said, our core units have roles they can full but they are somewhat limited and therefore core is usually minimized in most successful competitive lists.

I agree with all of the above, neat argumentation. I do however go over the 25% on occasion, if I feel the list merits it (like in a more shooty oriented list, where I take larger amounts of archer blocks).

[Cold Phoenix]

I'll take over 25% core, but that usually happens only in small games of less than 1500 points, or when everything else I want is in the list and I've got the points for a small unit of archers or Silver Helms.

I don't take spearmen ever; they can't fight on anything close to even terms with Saurus, Warriors of Chaos or Dark Elf Core. I really don't like having only a 5+ armour save and S3, because Spearmen die in droves and only annoy anything with a 4+ or T4. The only thing spearmen are really good at is breaking Steadfast, but that's what I bring Fiery Convocation for . I'd prefer to take archers, who can shoot or Silver Helms which are much tougher and hit at S5 on the charge, because both can do more damage and tend to be better at not giving points/combat res away.

I'd say that the reason most High Elf players go for minimum Core is that our special and rare unit choices can do much the same jobs, but more effectively. They're also the only source of sustained high S attacks outside of Characters.

Also,

Silver Helms suck on their own. They always disappoint (or at least mine do) as they hit like a damp flannel and don't actually have that much staying power either after round 1 of CC. They do however provide great ablative wounds to a combat character or fill a role as redirectors/small CC units that can kill a warmachine, hence why they are found either in a big bus or in small units of 5 or so.

Don't dismiss Silver Helms as secondary combat units. I know that they can't deliver on their own, but in conjunction with a Frostheart or Dragon, they can be very useful. I've had 10 with FC and a Frostheart grind down and destroy 20 Temple Guard (who were under Soul Blight) and a Slann . They are also a real threat to allot of weaker monsters and bunkers, between S5, ASF, 2+ and movement 9. In my last game against Dark Elves, a unit of 6 Silver Helms with Musician (ranked 2x3) charged a Kharibdyss which was threatening my flank. They gave it 4 wounds, took 3 back and beat it by charge + wound. It was out of range of the general or BSB and broke, eventually running off the board.

[Prince of Spires]

taking a step back, I think that the problem with our core is that the most important stats in WH are S and armour/ward save.

S does 2 things, it gives you wound and removes armour saves, which mean you can more reliably kill stuff. Armour / ward means that you're protected from (low S) attacks which reduces the killing potential of your opponent.

Our core has neither. Which means that our special (and rare) units perform better in almost all situations, especially give the cost of both of them. Our core doesn't have the armour or numbers to stick around and doesn't have the S to do enough killing. Simple comparrison, what would you rather take, a SM or a spearman. You can get 3 spearmen for every 2 SM. Both have a 5+ armour save. But that is about where it ends. SM have an axtra attack, so the 2 SM have about the same # of attacks as the two spearmen do. But the attacks are s5 (and WS 6, which is nice but not essential when fighting elites) and even have a 6+ ward vs BS shooting to boot. That s5 compared to s3 is huge and would even be worth it if you didn't also get an extra attack in the mix. S5 gives you a 2+ to hit vs a 4+ and it gives -2 to armour.

The other core units perform different roles which means they have some value and are worth taking. Which is why HE players complain less about their core. Reavers are great, but you only need so many redirectors (1 or 2 units are golden, 4 is a bit overkill perhaps). Same with S3 BS shooting. There are only so many targets out there worth shooting that you don't need all of them.

Rod

[Rabidnid]

I really like spears. You get 50% more for the same price as SM or WL. Sure they are S-3 but they go first with re-rolls. Wissans or okkams makes them into a much more effective unit. Silver helms can run down all kinds of chaff and artillery. Expectiong them to fight a serious unit is silly, but they can really help control the battlefield. S-3 shooting I have largly abandoned, the reavers bows being my only S-3.

[Andros123]

The problem with spearmen is the fact that they just die to almost anything really. Because who are they really gonna fight? You will never be able to field as many spearmen as other horde armies can do, and they are so vulnerable to shooting (templates specially). Pair them up with anything with armour (4+ and more) and you will die. Monsters can kill spearmen all day with thunderstomp. So it is really just other dudes with t3 and 5+ armour, they can be effective against. With archers you get to pick your opponents t3 guys and kill them, because you have your 30 inches.
But again, can you puff up their strength or lower your opponents armour or toughness, then all these attacks with re-rolls is pretty good.

Yesterday I had a game where I used 12 silverhelms, some archers and reavers in core. Worked very well. I had a prince with a giant blade riding along with my silverhelms. That unit just is awesome. It plowed through a 10 man unit of warriors and finally killed a unit of chaos knights. So imo, they work very well for protecting a killy character that dish out 4 s7 attacks with re-rolls to hit.

[John Rainbow]

I have thought of one thing that spears offer that our other units don't - rank bonus and static CR. As an army we don't really have other units that favour hording them up except maybe archers which could go into a deep formation if required. We just don't usually have enough numbers in elite units to do this. You have to make a tactical choice use spearmen to do this however. I can see it really helping in a list with a small(ish) bus where the static CR of the spears in combo with the damage output of the bus can be used to break people in a turn. Obviously you are walking a fine line between adding CR for yourself and simply giving easy wounds to your opponent with the spear unit though.

[Andros123]

Yes, you definitely have a point about removing steadfast for big enemy blocks. However, you first need to win combat and when you bring your spears into a fight, you should expect heavy casualties which means a lot of CR to your opponent. But I works perfect if you can combo charge and "clip" a corner of the enemy unit with your spears, however I find this very difficult to pull of.

[Rabidnid]

The problem with spearmen is the fact that they just die to almost anything really.

And swordmasters don't? I run lots of phoenix guard, find that SM are not really worth their points and have as many silver helms and reavers as I have a use for. 20 spears with FC and a magic banner is a a better bunker than a unit of archers. Staying in touch with the phoenix guard and dealing with the occasion combat suits spears far more than archers.

[Rommel44]

The problem with spearmen is the fact that they just die to almost anything really.

And swordmasters don't? I run lots of phoenix guard, find that SM are not really worth their points and have as many silver helms and reavers as I have a use for. 20 spears with FC and a magic banner is a a better bunker than a unit of archers. Staying in touch with the phoenix guard and dealing with the occasion combat suits spears far more than archers.

Hate to say it, but all of our Infantry can die very easily, with the exception of Phoenix Guard, so you really can't say that Spearmen are bad to them dying to easily when most of our units are the same. Granted Archers might be a safer choice at Core because they can shoot, however in general, besides War-Machines, many players and most armies don't take a lot of shooting, with the only exception being WE as they all can shoot, and S3 shooting isn't exactly something to get excited about, as most of the time my Bolt Throwers are far more effective at clearing chaff then my Archers

Spearmen to me seem like the Red-Headed Step Child of our Core, but I still fell there is a use for them. They provide us with a large body of troops that can dish out a lot of attacks w/rerolls against most Core Units in the game, give us a solid base for CR, and can also provide a distraction to enemy spells and shooting so they are not shooting at my Elite Units. Plus, magic is a great way to make these guys go from decent to something your opponent cannot ignore. Lore of Shadows is always a popular choice, yet even the signature spell for Lore of Beasts alone makes these guys sooo much better, as now they have to deal with 51x S4 attacks w/rerolls to hit when charged, and now they are T4. They have gone against the Bull Horde, Chaos Warriors, Saurus Warriors, and Dwarf Hammerer's and everytime my Spearmen have performed well, and having a horde of Spearmen is always great to have as it helps address the weakness of bodies when fighting horde armies.

Yes our Elite Units our better in terms of Stats and Rules, however besides a few units, the HE army as a whole has on average a 5+ save, which isn't amazing to say the least but thats what we are stuck with. Might be just me, but I love my Spearmen and I think HE Core Units can be effective if used correctly. Just in this case I opted to run Silver Helms over DP as DP in my opinion are too expensive for what they do, and I can get more bodies with the Silver Helms.

[Andros123]

Hate to say it, but all of our Infantry can die very easily, with the exception of Phoenix Guard, so you really can't say that Spearmen are bad to them dying to easily when most of our units are the same.

That's very true. But as I also wrote, they just don't have that many good match ups. Because who are they really gonna fight? Having a unit which HAS to be buffed to be useful sounds a bit risky to me. Compared to swordmasters they are much more fragile. Yes they both have t3 and 5+ AS, but swordmasters have WS6 and most importantly, are able to strike down a lot, before being struck back. They win combat because of their ability to grind down our foes. Spearmen and their s3 cannot get that job done.
Every time I use them, I usually find myself in a situation where I feel that I am giving my opponent free CR. I'm probably using them wrong, but as a support unit, I find them horrible because they go in there and kill nothing and provide your opponent with the opportunity to get a lot of CR and make your stronger units flee.

[John Rainbow]

Yes, you definitely have a point about removing steadfast for big enemy blocks. However, you first need to win combat and when you bring your spears into a fight, you should expect heavy casualties which means a lot of CR to your opponent. But I works perfect if you can combo charge and "clip" a corner of the enemy unit with your spears, however I find this very difficult to pull of.

I did mention this in my post about giving up free res from dying spearmen.

[Andros123]

I did mention this in my post about giving up free res from dying spearmen.

My bad. I seem to have been to eager

[RedPanda]

I rather the spearmen use swords over spears, that or the rules change to anyone who has a shield gets a parry save. (never made sense to me why only swords)

[Eirik]

The reason people want min core is as follows.

Spears are not great, unless your plan is a block of 50 with mindrazor
Archers, helms and reavers are good, but you can usually get more than you need with the 25% allotment
Seaguard are just archers that are more expensive, worse at arching, and more speary

Given the above, unless your list uses core in a strange way (massive silver helm busses, tons of small units of reavers for avoidance, overwhelming volumes of archery, a spearhorde for casting mindrazor on) you aren't likely to need more than 25% of your points to get what you need. That's why people take the min 25%

I'll note that the mindrazor strategy is less common these days because we lost magic options in the new book, even a L4 is about 10% likely not to get mindrazor in a given game. In the 7th ed book you could take the silver wand for 10pts and be essentially guaranteed whatever spell you wanted.

[Bashtrigger]

The reason people want min core is as follows.

Spears are not great, unless your plan is a block of 50 with mindrazor
Archers, helms and reavers are good, but you can usually get more than you need with the 25% allotment
Seaguard are just archers that are more expensive, worse at arching, and more speary

Given the above, unless your list uses core in a strange way (massive silver helm busses, tons of small units of reavers for avoidance, overwhelming volumes of archery, a spearhorde for casting mindrazor on) you aren't likely to need more than 25% of your points to get what you need. That's why people take the min 25%

I'll note that the mindrazor strategy is less common these days because we lost magic options in the new book, even a L4 is about 10% likely not to get mindrazor in a given game. In the 7th ed book you could take the silver wand for 10pts and be essentially guaranteed whatever spell you wanted.

You still can, but it requires you to take a (or more) lvl2's with the same lore

[Tethlis]

There's more to Fantasy than having one unit beat another unit.

Spears are quite good at beating equivalent light opposition (right, I know, who cares) but they're also good at being Steadfast for a few turns. Most of our units simply cannot hold any serious threat in combat for multiple turns. Silverhelms are too expensive to be taken in deep ranks, and the ranged capability of Archers is best in small or medium sized units.

The result is that Spears can only up a lot of threats for 2 or 3 rounds of combat, and they can do so very reliably. That's a role that's unique for everything in our army except Phoenix Guard and White Lions; arguably two of our most competitive choices.

I'm not claiming Spears are good, but they're not bad either.

[NexS]

I really like spears. You get 50% more for the same price as SM or WL. Sure they are S-3 but they go first with re-rolls. Wissans or okkams makes them into a much more effective unit. Silver helms can run down all kinds of chaff and artillery. Expectiong them to fight a serious unit is silly, but they can really help control the battlefield. S-3 shooting I have largly abandoned, the reavers bows being my only S-3.

I've always maintained that the quality in the spearmen is that they are essentially a blank canvas that soaks up augments willingly. I think this is a good value - however, you have to build your army list around them if you want to use them. I find that (as previously stated) you have to take alot of them as they die too easily to be effective in small units, but I like to put an Anointed in there, giving them a 6+ ward save, and a level 2 High Mage to buff it as much as allowed by your opponent.

[Viale]

I think spearmen utility hinges a bit on whether you take a loremaster or not. He brings so many juicy augments/hexes to your side that you can get them quite nasty for little effort. Having 4(wyssans, miasma, iceshard and earthblood) really makes it easy to give them that little edge they usually need. Granted one of them needs the loremaster to join them but does our elites really need him anyway?

now granted using those to buff a swordmaster unit might make for better killing potential, but I would rather have my speamen becoming a little tougher in combat than something that can already dish out the pain.

[Prince of Spires]

Of course there are things you can do with spears. Mindrazor is the obvious one of course. And almost all buffs work great on them.

The thing is that other units just do it better. A unit of 50 spears is great and all. But steadfast doesn't really mean much these days, especially in a unit of 50. Stuff that doesn't care about steadfast is not going to care about those spearmen. And steadfast units will just be bigger. Those 50 spearmen are also 225 skaven slaves after all.

And ask yourself, would you rather have 50 spearmen or 30 PG (if both were core). Instead of 20 bodies (in 2 ranks) more you get a 4+ wardsave, which is worth 30 bodies. You lose 20 s3 attacks, but the attacks you are making are at higher S (so more likely to wound and go through armour), at higher WS (so more likely to hit), at higher I (you're pretty much guaranteed rerolls agains anything not ASF).

Another option, 50 spearmen instead of 35 SM / WL. The SM have 5 whole attacks less. But again, they are at (a lot) higher S, higher WS. You do lose the reroll (which compensates a bit there). Same armour, but better protection against BS shooting. Steadfast is nice on the spearmen, but the SM easily kill that extra rank worth of models to remove steadfast. You only need 5 or 10 extra kills. And 2+ to wound vs 4+ to wound easily gives you that.

I think most people would go for PG or SM if they were core. Which explains why people go minimum core. If it comes out of the same points, then other units are just better. Which is how it should be of course, since they are core, not special. Even if you factor in buffs. You can buff the other units just as easily. And they all need them less then spearmen do. Which makes a lot of tactical sense. Of course your opponent will try to disspell mindrazor on your spearmen if you are in combat with them. And then what do you do with them?

Rod

[Rabidnid]

And ask yourself, would you rather have 50 spearmen or 30 PG (if both were core). Instead of 20 bodies (in 2 ranks) more you get a 4+ wardsave, which is worth 30 bodies. You lose 20 s3 attacks, but the attacks you are making are at higher S (so more likely to wound and go through armour), at higher WS (so more likely to hit), at higher I (you're pretty much guaranteed rerolls agains anything not ASF).
Rod

So rather than my current 50 PG I should run 80 instead, but what should I then use for core?

[Prince of Spires]

So rather than my current 50 PG I should run 80 instead, but what should I then use for core?

Hm, that wasn't my point. Probably should have been more clear. My point was more, if PG were core, would you rather take 50 spearmen or 30 PG. Same amounts of points. Both offer a ranked up anvil type block. Spearmen have 2 extra ranks (assuming horde), though the PG could go 4*7 to sacrifice some attacks (vs horde units) to reduce that to 1.

If your choice here is that you would rather have the PG then the spearmen if both are core, then that is an easy explanation of why people go minimum core (in the case of spearmen here). Once the points come out of the same slot, then there are better choices out there. And when you go above 25% core then you are effectively spending special points.

And this then goes to the rest of the core as well. You only need so many reavers, and once you go above 25% then eagles and SW are actually just as viable a choice as reavers. Same with SH. You only need 10 or so before you start seeing diminishing returns and other choices become better.

Archers are probably the only unit that really performs a role that is difficult to copy with special units. Which is probably the reason why most armies with core over 25% will have at least some archers in core. But s3 BS shooting only goes so far. So you don't really want or need more then what the 25% core gives you.

As a side note, 45 archers are probably just as good a block as 50 spearmen. you get 5 fewer attacks and no armour. But most units that can shrug off 50 ASF s3 attack will not care about 5+ armour anyway. And in return you get 30+ BS shots each turn you're not in combat (and not marching). They can be just as easily buffed as spearmen. After all, 40 or 50 mindrazored ASF attacks makes little difference. Whatever you're in combat with will probably die anyway.

Rod

[Rabidnid]

As a side note, 45 archers are probably just as good a block as 50 spearmen. you get 5 fewer attacks and no armour. But most units that can shrug off 50 ASF s3 attack will not care about 5+ armour anyway. And in return you get 30+ BS shots each turn you're not in combat (and not marching). They can be just as easily buffed as spearmen. After all, 40 or 50 mindrazored ASF attacks makes little difference. Whatever you're in combat with will probably die anyway.
Rod

BS-4/S-3 shooting it is pretty irrelevant and stops units from marching as much as they might wish. SW, bolt throwers or sisters are a better source of shooting. Comparing core to core, spears have the option of a magic banner which is unigue to our core in the current book, a 5+ save and cheaper than the other 2 options. 20/30 spears with FC and gleaming pennant of banner of discipline is a remarkably solid bunker that can be the target of okkams, earth blood or wissans. Running a third unit of PG as my mage bunker is an option which I choose not to use.

[Bashtrigger]

As a side note, 45 archers are probably just as good a block as 50 spearmen. you get 5 fewer attacks and no armour. But most units that can shrug off 50 ASF s3 attack will not care about 5+ armour anyway. And in return you get 30+ BS shots each turn you're not in combat (and not marching). They can be just as easily buffed as spearmen. After all, 40 or 50 mindrazored ASF attacks makes little difference. Whatever you're in combat with will probably die anyway.
Rod

BS-4/S-3 shooting it is pretty irrelevant and stops units from marching as much as they might wish. SW, bolt throwers or sisters are a better source of shooting. Comparing core to core, spears have the option of a magic banner which is unigue to our core in the current book, a 5+ save and cheaper than the other 2 options. 20/30 spears with FC and gleaming pennant of banner of discipline is a remarkably solid bunker that can be the target of okkams, earth blood or wissans. Running a third unit of PG as my mage bunker is an option which I choose not to use.

You keep saying BS4 S3 shooting is irrelevant, but I just don't see why. A group of 30 archers takes down a warmachine in 1-2 turns, kills fast cav outright in one turn, kills stuff like GE and Sabretusks in one turn, and is quite able to reduce hordes of T3 guys by a significant amount before combat ensues (speeding up the process of penetrating their steadfast). Not to mention monsters with a low save (like the Greater Daemons), I've had them take off 3 wounds of a Bloodthirster in one round of shooting.

Quite, quite significant. Please notice it's not always about the strength of the shooting, numbers count for a lot as well.

And take this into consideration, on 30 archers, you've only paid 30pnts more than you would for 30 spearmen. So taking out just one sabretusk has already won you your points back.

This is not to say that spearmen can't play a role in HE army lists, but do not disregard archers because they 'only' shoot at BS4 and S3.

[Rabidnid]

As a side note, 45 archers are probably just as good a block as 50 spearmen. you get 5 fewer attacks and no armour. But most units that can shrug off 50 ASF s3 attack will not care about 5+ armour anyway. And in return you get 30+ BS shots each turn you're not in combat (and not marching). They can be just as easily buffed as spearmen. After all, 40 or 50 mindrazored ASF attacks makes little difference. Whatever you're in combat with will probably die anyway.
Rod

BS-4/S-3 shooting it is pretty irrelevant and stops units from marching as much as they might wish. SW, bolt throwers or sisters are a better source of shooting. Comparing core to core, spears have the option of a magic banner which is unigue to our core in the current book, a 5+ save and cheaper than the other 2 options. 20/30 spears with FC and gleaming pennant of banner of discipline is a remarkably solid bunker that can be the target of okkams, earth blood or wissans. Running a third unit of PG as my mage bunker is an option which I choose not to use.

You keep saying BS4 S3 shooting is irrelevant, but I just don't see why. A group of 30 archers takes down a warmachine in 1-2 turns, kills fast cav outright in one turn, kills stuff like GE and Sabretusks in one turn, and is quite able to reduce hordes of T3 guys by a significant amount before combat ensues (speeding up the process of penetrating their steadfast). Not to mention monsters with a low save (like the Greater Daemons), I've had them take off 3 wounds of a Bloodthirster in one round of shooting.

Quite, quite significant. Please notice it's not always about the strength of the shooting, numbers count for a lot as well.

And take this into consideration, on 30 archers, you've only paid 30pnts more than you would for 30 spearmen. So taking out just one sabretusk has already won you your points back.

This is not to say that spearmen can't play a role in HE army lists, but do not disregard archers because they 'only' shoot at BS4 and S3.

And if you have a couple units of sisters and a couple bolt throwers you do not need archers. Why take unarmoured archers when you can have a cheaper troop type with better protection that can have a magic banner. I just sold 40 archers because they are useless in an army with sisters, bolt throwers and silver helms. The spears can march every turn and do not need to reform for combat.