PG and Crown of command

[Sackree]

I've had a thought recently and I wanted to gather an opinion on it.

Archmage
Lvl 4 high magic
4++
crown of command

21+ phoenix guard w/ razor banner.

When run alongside a BotWD lion block it makes two hard hitting and hard to shift combat blocks.

Is stubborn worth it on the PG or is it better to take BoH on the archmage instead?

[Curu Olannon]

It depends. Why is this post in the tactics section and not army lists?

[Loriel]

This depends highly on how you are using your phoenix guards.

Personally I feel that Phoenix Guards are one to the rare units in whole game that functions very reliably on their own without any support from characters, magic or other units. WS 5, almost always rerolling 15 x str 4 attacks with LD 9 and fear, makes them just perfect troopers. I view them many times as elves with 7,5 pts There isn't many special choices (bar some monsters) that can beat phoenix guards in frontal battle when both units are about the same cost. Since you are allready cutting your opponents combat res from wounds to half I seldom find them in need of stubborn. And if they are in need of stubborn the reason is that they are more likely to have my opponent spending a lot of resources (in terms of magic, movement phase etc) and in many scenarios that is very suitable, if it allows you to utilize your other forces to have full strength to destroy more points from our opponent.

My Phoenix guard is always about 20 - 25 strong and its main role is to cover my White Lion unit flank and I usually place them to face my opponent infantry and I try to avoid any monsters for attrition fight. My phoenix guard has mostly BSB with fury ring + merwyn shield, dragon armor... sometimes crown for extra defence.

So your 21 PG unit cost 390 points. You are placing 300 points mage inside of that unit (which is more likely to be your general) so unit total VP woth is 815 points. You are almost guaranteed to have +1 ward that unit is something that you could fight close combat even without losing the mage. You could even consider fencers blade + endurance + crown. Fencers blade would make many opponent hitting your mage with 5+ and almost all with 4+. still would have decent chance of 4+ ward and even 3+ ward.

Ok now you have one problem. What is the opponent you are willing to face with this superior Anvil? To be honest I don't know. What I have learned of my Allarielle (she is in 28 white lions 8 wide) she usually tends to survive two - three rounds of combat and I like to challenge with her especially if the killy characters is allready in B2B contact with her and trying to mind game with HKB. Not many opponent downs Allarielle or this mage (especially with fencer blades) in one turn, but many can do it in two - three. So you are left with two crucial choices either try to have your opponent to charge you so you are able to use apothesis to heal your mage or break your opponent in first round of combat.

If you face something inferior largish horde force you probably didn't need that character support and most likely not stubborn. You are unlikely to break that horde, since they are most likely to be steadfast with "high" ld, and they are less likely to break you up. Your mage is less likely to be killed in attrition battle. If you face something much more elite then you are much more likely to need character support, but are you willing to have your Lord fight in that battle which will be very hard to break and you are left in attrition fight and very likely to lose your mage, in this battle you are more likely to need Crown of command.

Ok then you have another option to have superior mage bunker. Phoenix guards would be extremely hard for any scout / chaff to break or any small fire arms to kill. Your mage would most likely to survive, but then you spended 25% to core and 390 points for glorified mage bunker from point allowance that you are more likely to need somewhere else. And if you play this with mage bunker you are more likely to lose one of the greatest assets in high magic and that is shield of saphery. Well your glorified body guards would be much more glorified. Most people see lore of high magic weak lore on itself and I actually has to agree, that without using shield of saphery something like shadow will outweight high in most scenarios. On the other hand this way you can use PG for points denial tactic. In short having stubborn as mage bunker is probably very very useless trait and especially that your would trade it of for Book of Hoeth.

so... To have more from 300 point investment you should increase the size of phoenix guard block to have bigger effect from the mage and much more punching power to actually break your opponent. I actually though to try Phoenix Guard horde. This big unit of phoenix guards might need stubborn especially if they get flanked.

I feel phoenix guards are excellent anvil and you don't and more likely shouldnt spend points to make them even better. In case you want to make it combat block then this stubborn, shield of saphery business starts to be more viable method. If you want to have stubborn on PG I would suggest that Noble, with merwyn shield and crown command, would probably outweight lord mage for this role. Remember that the noble will only generate 2 combat res (unless challenge) and if your opponent spend alot of close combat resources to that unit he might end up wounding allready dead model. If he doesn't take those attacks to noble and hits phoenix guard then you are more likely to have scenario where opponent gets more combat res but you are still stubborn. As noble is slightly harder to kill than 2 phoenix guards (would be ws 6 , 4+ and 4++ rather than PG ws 5, 5+,4++) every attacks spended on noble killing is likely to be wasted = less CR. Real question is that is there any real reason to spend 130 points on this noble (or 155 if BSB) or just take 8,6 more phoenix guard instead for natural steadfast... If you play BSB with stubborn crown then he will be high priority target in close combat, and is More likely to be killed + gives extra 100 points and BSB lost.

Ok. I have again released my inner Wall of Texter, but I hope this could help you to have some consideration on the matter.

Is stubborn worth it on the PG or is it better to take BoH on the archmage instead?

So in short: I would say plainly no.

[Ferny]

I'd always want the BoH on my primary lord level non-SC caster, which leaves room for either the 4++ or the CoC, but not both - and if you want the CoC then you really need the 4++. An alternative might be BSB with shield of Myrwyrm and Crown of Command?

[Cold Phoenix]

I wouldn't do it. If 3++ ward saves can't keep you Phoenix Guard alive, I think that they’re in so much trouble that Stubborn won't matter, because the unit will be dead in a couple of turns. It might help you hold against a really bad run of luck, but in most cases, I think taking the Book on your Lv4 actually provides more reliability, between the increased ability to dispel and the protection against broken concentration.

[Sackree]

It depends. Why is this post in the tactics section and not army lists?

Sorry if it is the wrong place, but I posted it under tactics because I am not interested in discussing a full army list but rather pro's and con's of using a specific combination of a unit including an item.


@Loriel
That was a very impressive analysis, and I appreciate you taking the time to give such great insight into my question. I suppose I saw the crown as an extra bit of insurance for a unit that I want stuck in combat most of the game
I think my reasoning for raising this issue was because only times I can remember my PG losing combat are when they are denied steadfast by being hit in the flank or rear so it does give them a bit of extra insurance. This being said if they are being attacked in the flank or rear it is probably my own fault to present my opponent with that advantage.

[Eirik]

I think the versatility of PG is best exploited without making them into a deathstar. PG are usually still around at the end of the game, so they seem like the obvious deathstar choice, but I think we need our points for offence so badly that putting them in a deathstar is wrong. I think buffing their offence with the razor standard, a character, or magic support is probably the best bet with these guys.

Crown of command is usually only seen on a deathstar, which is why I bring this up. If you aren't doing a deathstar, I think a different item will get you better value for the unit. In a caster it buys a book of hoeth (which buffs the PG through magic support) or a wardsave (which buffs the PG by making you more willing to engage in combat with your wizard). On a combat character it buys combat prowess, which buffs the PG in the most straightforward of ways. Our characters need their items very badly, crown is competing for those very valuable points and isn't as helpful to us as it is to more deathstar focused armies.

[Rabidnid]

To state the obvious, an Annointed will make them unbreakable and give them a 2+ save versus magical attacks.

[Sackree]

To state the obvious, an Annointed will make them unbreakable and give them a 2+ save versus magical attacks.

How does an anointed make them unbreakable?

His special rules are; ASF, fear, MR2, martial prowess! valour of ages, witness to destiny (4++), blessing of asuryan ( 6++ & ItP for the unit)

None of those make the unit unbreakable unless I'm missing something game changing.

[Rabidnid]

To state the obvious, an Annointed will make them unbreakable and give them a 2+ save versus magical attacks.

How does an anointed make them unbreakable?

His special rules are; ASF, fear, MR2, martial prowess! valour of ages, witness to destiny (4++), blessing of asuryan ( 6++ & ItP for the unit)

None of those make the unit unbreakable unless I'm missing something game changing.

Nope, you are right, me failing basic reading skills again.

[Beltar]

I think Annoited is great choice.

Make him Sword of Giant, Enchanted shield and crown of command and set him to PG
Add Level 4 Life mage with book of hoeth and Golden crown + BSB with Sword of antiheroes+ Shield of merwin and Ironcurse icon to White lions with IMBA. You have two stuborn units with 2++ on magic. Life mage is better than high to this build, because you can give to WL 5+ regen (only in few cases enemy left you have 5++ on WL from High spells atribut) or add +2/+4 toughness to PG or WL. And dwellers below are better than fiery convocation ...

[sparkytrypod]

I don't know, if you need to have the crown of command on your phoenix guard, something has gone drastically wrong!

[John Rainbow]

I don't know, if you need to have the crown of command on your phoenix guard, something has gone drastically wrong!

I would go with this too. I don't really think we should be employing tactics that rely on something like the Crown of Command as every loss we sustain really hurts.

[Ferny]

I've been giving this a lot of thought recently but from a different angle.

On the basis that the Utility BSB (Reaver/PoS) is good but it creates a conflict between BSB range and standing still to shoot better I've been looking at combat builds. Given that our tanky tank with damage dealing from 7th is now long gone I think we're left with three foot options:

1) Armour of Caledor, ideally in BotWD unit
2) Shield of Myrwyrm
2i) with MR2
2ii) with Crown of Command

Between the three I'm torn. All three options will keep the BSB where I want him for re-rolls. I'd like more utility from my BSB than just survival, but at the end of the day, survival is the top priority. I'm not actually sure whether option 1 is better than option 2, but the latter certainly give an extra edge of utility.

So I really have 3 questions:
1) Is AoC + BotWD better protection than SoM?
2) Is 4++ parry enough protection for a frontline BSB? Would it be enough if it were true 4++ (i.e. vs impact hits and thunderstomps etc)?
3) Do you find your PG would benefit from 2++? Or do they not get targetted by MM etc much due to the native 4++? Does this effectively nullify opponents direct damage/MM, or does it simply force them to target sisters etc rather than waste magic on (not) killing PG?
4) How much do you feel you'd benefit from stubborn PG? Personally I think it's a great boon: I like to absorb chariots, thunderstompers, lances etc on mine, and while usually their ward save is great, if there's a high enough volume of attacks for them to whiff it then that's a lot of points wasted in a roadblock which wasn't.

[Curu Olannon]

1) Is AoC + BotWD better protection than SoM?
2) Is 4++ parry enough protection for a frontline BSB? Would it be enough if it were true 4++ (i.e. vs impact hits and thunderstomps etc)?
3) Do you find your PG would benefit from 2++? Or do they not get targetted by MM etc much due to the native 4++? Does this effectively nullify opponents direct damage/MM, or does it simply force them to target sisters etc rather than waste magic on (not) killing PG?
4) How much do you feel you'd benefit from stubborn PG? Personally I think it's a great boon: I like to absorb chariots, thunderstompers, lances etc on mine, and while usually their ward save is great, if there's a high enough volume of attacks for them to whiff it then that's a lot of points wasted in a roadblock which wasn't.

1. Yes.
2. No. No.
3. Yes. Just try and face DE with Doombolt. 4++ suddenly isn`t all that any longer for our small units
4. Very little. You spend points trying to solve a problem which you strategy is creating in the first place

A BSB on foot can do fine with Reaver Bow + PoS. The question is why your other units end up outside of his range. With an infantry based force you are not supposed to send your units off. You are supposed to hang back and let the enemy come to you. If you`re not playing an infantry list, then you can mount the BSB and suddenly you have a plethora of options.

[Prince of Spires]

3) Do you find your PG would benefit from 2++? Or do they not get targetted by MM etc much due to the native 4++? Does this effectively nullify opponents direct damage/MM, or does it simply force them to target sisters etc rather than waste magic on (not) killing PG?

3. Yes. Just try and face DE with Doombolt. 4++ suddenly isn`t all that any longer for our small units

It depends a bit on how you look at answering the question, but I'm not completely sure I agree.

Of course, everything and anything benefits from having a 2++ ward save. And getting a better save is always great.

But I'm not sure it's worth the investment to raise the ward on PG and once you go for the PG then no other unit can take it. Halving incoming damage is already pretty sweet (a standard 2D6 s4 MM would only do something like 2 kills to PG). And the putting it on a different unit is spreading the benefit more. Assuming you have another likely candidate of course (and are not running a PG deathstar).

And, if you are really that worried about magic missiles (or other magic that allows saves), then you could always just give the lichebone pennant to the PG for a 3+ magic resistance ward and save yourself 35pts and keep the possibility to put the BotWD on another unit. The BotWD then is just overkill on a unit of PG, unless you have very specific ideas about their use or regularly run into deamons.

Rod

[Ferny]

1) Is AoC + BotWD better protection than SoM?
2) Is 4++ parry enough protection for a frontline BSB? Would it be enough if it were true 4++ (i.e. vs impact hits and thunderstomps etc)?
3) Do you find your PG would benefit from 2++? Or do they not get targetted by MM etc much due to the native 4++? Does this effectively nullify opponents direct damage/MM, or does it simply force them to target sisters etc rather than waste magic on (not) killing PG?
4) How much do you feel you'd benefit from stubborn PG? Personally I think it's a great boon: I like to absorb chariots, thunderstompers, lances etc on mine, and while usually their ward save is great, if there's a high enough volume of attacks for them to whiff it then that's a lot of points wasted in a roadblock which wasn't.

1. Yes.
2. No. No.
3. Yes. Just try and face DE with Doombolt. 4++ suddenly isn`t all that any longer for our small units
4. Very little. You spend points trying to solve a problem which you strategy is creating in the first place

Yeah, I thought 2+ might be better...but with access to the cheap pseudo-ward via the shield it does give us the option to get a utility item into the PG unit without risking the AM or compromising their casting potential (as initially suggested in the OP).

A BSB on foot can do fine with Reaver Bow + PoS. The question is why your other units end up outside of his range. With an infantry based force you are not supposed to send your units off. You are supposed to hang back and let the enemy come to you. If you`re not playing an infantry list, then you can mount the BSB and suddenly you have a plethora of options.

If this discussion is interesting I'll translocate the relevant bits to my thread to avoid derailing this one (any more than I already have!), but I disagree that you necessarily sit back with the list (especially in iterations which lack RBTs), but even if you do, it's entirely possible for the BSB bunker (probably archers) to be out of position for either the lions, the PG or both. Undoubtedly being outside of BSB range in my infantry list is due to user error, but I find it does happen, and the choice of a ranged weapon for the BSB does lead to a conflict in roles, albeit one which can be mitigated by making better in-game decisions .

[Ferny]

3) Do you find your PG would benefit from 2++? Or do they not get targetted by MM etc much due to the native 4++? Does this effectively nullify opponents direct damage/MM, or does it simply force them to target sisters etc rather than waste magic on (not) killing PG?

3. Yes. Just try and face DE with Doombolt. 4++ suddenly isn`t all that any longer for our small units

It depends a bit on how you look at answering the question, but I'm not completely sure I agree.

Of course, everything and anything benefits from having a 2++ ward save. And getting a better save is always great.

But I'm not sure it's worth the investment to raise the ward on PG and once you go for the PG then no other unit can take it. Halving incoming damage is already pretty sweet (a standard 2D6 s4 MM would only do something like 2 kills to PG). And the putting it on a different unit is spreading the benefit more. Assuming you have another likely candidate of course (and are not running a PG deathstar).

And, if you are really that worried about magic missiles (or other magic that allows saves), then you could always just give the lichebone pennant to the PG for a 3+ magic resistance ward and save yourself 35pts and keep the possibility to put the BotWD on another unit. The BotWD then is just overkill on a unit of PG, unless you have very specific ideas about their use or regularly run into deamons.

Rod

The issue is that there's potentially 'free' utility to be added to the unit. The OP suggested CoC on an AM but I think the cost of this is too great (no option for protection or reduced magical output, no BotWD protection). But if you take the Shield of Myrwyrm on a BSB, who, after a lord-level general, is your second 'must have' character, then you've still got 35pts of utility to give him. The ranged version works well but if you're going the SoM route then you do have the option of either MR2 or Stubborn for 'free', or at any rate, just at the cost of not having the shooty version of the BSB, which is probably a fair trade if you can keep him alive.

I don't think any other unit loses out through this - who else would take MR2? I've seen some builds where an AM in a non-BotWD unit takes MR3 instead of 4++ but that's about as close as I've seen.

RE: other options to boost the PG - bannerwise lichebone would be great, except that I think their potential is helped so much more by taking razor, so that's out. Likewise the BotWD, which I also agree is largely wasted on them.

[Curu Olannon]

I wasn`t talking about BOTWD on PG, but rather if you want to spend 35 points on stubborn I think you should consider 30 points for MR2 instead

[Ferny]

I wasn`t talking about BOTWD on PG, but rather if you want to spend 35 points on stubborn I think you should consider 30 points for MR2 instead

I guess this has the advantage that you can (in principle) jump the BSB out of the unit before combat and he's still served his role, whereas the CoC BSB doesn't if you chicken out...

[Curu Olannon]

To be honest I don`t think an MR BSB is viable, he`ll be so left alone. But as for the general case, I think PG are better served with MR than stubborn. A loremaster for example. In general though it`s hard to get a good configuration since the character loadout(s) will be awkward.

[Ferny]

I wonder if it could ever make sense (outside perhaps of a PG bus/star) to take a 'spare' noble or mage to carry these items? As you say, configuration is awkward, IMO whether for a noble or a loremaster (or AM), although made possible by the parry shield...

[Curu Olannon]

I suppose a Loremaster could do it. AM is very risky since you lose the ward. Loremaster with MR2 and parry is decent, but still feels a bit weak vs Death...

[Ferny]

I suppose a Loremaster could do it. AM is very risky since you lose the ward. Loremaster with MR2 and parry is decent, but still feels a bit weak vs Death...

I'm not sure he could do that and keep BoH - doesn't LM need to buy a magic sword to match the shield, whereas a noble can simply keep his mundane hand weapon?

[Ferny]

It's just occured to me that there could be a third character with 'spare' capacity: the scroll caddy. Mine often goes with the PG (partly a hangover from high magic days, partly range, partly I have a cool model for this unit now, partly ring of fury, partly lack of available bunkers)...now accepting that this isn't necessarily the best place for a non-ring, non-high mage, but they are a bit of a throwaway character - they could take a scroll and MR1 and still have 10pts spare if you wanted. High magic does make sense in this context, it's just I like iceshard blizzard so so much.

[Curu Olannon]

Does he necessarily need the BoH? Without it`s impossible (55 + 15 + 30 = 100, no room for a magic weapon). Depends on the overall configuration, if you`re running a light council with an AM for example it makes sense to have the book on the L4

[Loriel]

I'm not sure he could do that and keep BoH - doesn't LM need to buy a magic sword to match the shield, whereas a noble can simply keep his mundane hand weapon?

Interesting observation. In same sense annointed has only halberd (well he wouldn't benefit from merwyrm shield anyway)

We assume that all troops and characters have turned up to the battle with at least one suitable fighting hand weapon each, although many troops are also equipped with one or more other, more specialised weapons. As the main rules assume that every warrior has a hand weapon, we don't need to discuss further special rules — a model with a hand weapon fights precisely according to the rules laid out in earlier sections. However, there are many other types of weaponry available to the warriors of Warhammer

[Ferny]

I'm not sure he could do that and keep BoH - doesn't LM need to buy a magic sword to match the shield, whereas a noble can simply keep his mundane hand weapon?

Interesting observation. In same sense annointed has only halberd (well he wouldn't benefit from merwyrm shield anyway)

We assume that all troops and characters have turned up to the battle with at least one suitable fighting hand weapon each, although many troops are also equipped with one or more other, more specialised weapons. As the main rules assume that every warrior has a hand weapon, we don't need to discuss further special rules — a model with a hand weapon fights precisely according to the rules laid out in earlier sections. However, there are many other types of weaponry available to the warriors of Warhammer

Yay - good catch - no need for the 5pt magic weapon tax now! Although maybe it's worth it just for ethereals if you have the points spare.

[Bashtrigger]

It depends. Why is this post in the tactics section and not army lists?

Sorry if it is the wrong place, but I posted it under tactics because I am not interested in discussing a full army list but rather pro's and con's of using a specific combination of a unit including an item.


@Loriel
That was a very impressive analysis, and I appreciate you taking the time to give such great insight into my question. I suppose I saw the crown as an extra bit of insurance for a unit that I want stuck in combat most of the game
I think my reasoning for raising this issue was because only times I can remember my PG losing combat are when they are denied steadfast by being hit in the flank or rear so it does give them a bit of extra insurance. This being said if they are being attacked in the flank or rear it is probably my own fault to present my opponent with that advantage.

If this is your problem, then changing the BSB you might already include in that unit, into a Lothern Sea Helm gives you the same effect, but for only 25pnt, and still allows you to buy enough protective gear.