Mounted BSB and “Hold your ground” bubble for infantry

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gaz
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Mounted BSB and “Hold your ground” bubble for infantry

#1 Post by gaz »

Hey all,

I’m considering introducing a small Silver Helm bus to my list in order to get third significant combat block (the other two being BotWD White Lions and Phoenix Guard).

I’ve been playing around with the points and at 2400 you can do a bus with the BSB and one other combat character whilst maintaining two other decent sized combat blocks and some RBTs (as well as mages and reavers).

This is obviously not an original idea (I know Curu has been using such a list to good effect).

My main concern is that the bus may often be needed to fill two conflicting roles.
The first role is to function as cavalry, using mobility to set up favourable charges, and the second being to provide BSB rerolls to other important parts of the army.

The question I’d like to ask of those who’ve tried a mounted BSB is what do you prioritize with the bus when it is being used in conjunction with elite infantry?
Do you hold it back for to keep the BSB within 12” of other combat blocks?
Do you fully utilize the cavalry’s movement whilst leaving some of the infantry vulnerable to leadership tests?
Do you use gleaming pennant on one block so that it has some resistance to panic checks without the BSB? (I am considering this with my PG, effectively making them more of a pure anvil and relying on the WL and SH bus as hammers)

My observations from battle reports (Curu’s in particular) has been that it’s not too hard to keep the BSB within range of one of the infantry blocks but the other seems to be in and out of the BSB bubble throughout battles. (does this sound right to those who've tried such a build?)

I would imagine a lot of this is situational and I’d be interested to hear what general guidelines people have been following (e.g. against a hell cannon, leadership rerolls may be more important than manoeuvrability) and how reliable they have been finding their attempted play styles.

Thanks for any experience you can share,
-Gaz
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Eltherion2
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Re: Mounted BSB and “Hold your ground” bubble for infantry

#2 Post by Eltherion2 »

I had this same dilemma when i used a mounted BSB as I was to afraid to commit him to combats in case he died and I lost the important re-rolls.

I personally would keep him safe in the PG to give the infantry blocks the important Leadership re-rolls.

If you want to boost the Silverhelms maybe a cheap hero non BSB?

I keep my cavalry cheap and use them mainly as flankers, see Link below.

Silverhelms: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=64292
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Mounted BSB and “Hold your ground” bubble for infantry

#3 Post by Curu Olannon »

This sort of Helm unit has one purpose, and one purpose only: bring those characters into combat! While other Helm configurations can function differently, this is what you need to keep in mind when taking such an approach. This is also why I rarely send the unit out on its own - if the characters cannot handle whatever they`re after on their own, then it`s not worth sending the bus. The re-roll is super-essential to the infantry as neither LD8 nor LD9 are particularly reliable by Warhammer standards.

I would say that the overall configuration should depend on the context. I`ve tried running just the BSB with Helms but found it a points sink. Overall I think we lost a lot of good BSB builds with our new book, which I find to a problem in a lot of lists. I think a smallish bus (say 8, run 3x3 with the BSB) could work well as a counter-charge in a shooty-heavy shadow list with PG + WL could work, but I haven`t tried this and you might just be better off with PoS/Reaver Bow, I don`t know.

At 2400 points I find that the points are extremely tight for 2 blocks + bus. I have yet to put it to the proper test, which will happen in a few weeks. I`m leaning towards favouring one block + bus with more support at the moment, as it`s less fragile and you have more points to play with. Perhaps block + bus + frostheart could even be a nice alternative (though this pretty much leaves the Loremaster at home under ETC restrictions as book + banner + frostheart is 0-2). I`m thinking something like the following could be interesting, though very different from how my current list plays:

L4 Shadow Scepter, 4++
Prince S7 1+ re-rollable
BSB 1+ TOTS
Mage L2 Metal, Scroll

Helmbus
Archer bunker
Reavers

WL BOTWD
PG Razor

4 RBT
Frostheart

If you want the BSB on foot while having a Prince with a bus, I would probably advocate the Reaver Bow + PoS build and have him somewhat further behind. Yet another option of course is to give him a 4++ and play an L4 High Archmage with 4++ in the PG. Lots of interesting choices ;)
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Ferny
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Re: Mounted BSB and “Hold your ground” bubble for infantry

#4 Post by Ferny »

Curu's list is very much blocks+bus. In his set-up the bus is definitely a combat vehicle and I think plays quite differently to all other WL:PG blocks I've encountered.

Tethlis and others have a more classic WL:PG set-up, with support from combinations of RBTs, dragon princes, frosty, more bodies, sisters and/or 2nd mage to taste. In this set up the BSB is usually on foot with reaver/PoS and either enchanted shield or, more commonly it seems, charmed shield and halberd.

The foot BSB suffers from needing a bunker, which is either risky combat blocks or missile blocks which he can't split fire with, and needing to be close to the action for BSB re-rolls but not wanting to move (closer) if he's in an archer bunker. He's also recognizably frail in combat should the enemy make contact.

I've recently come across the mounted noble BSB with enchanted shield, dawnstone, PoS, lance and heavy/dragon armour and I think he looks very viable in almost any sort of list, but certainly in the WL:PG blocks as an alternative to the reaver/PoS foot BSB. You'd lose the extra (high S) magical shooting, which certainly helps (and contributes towards your 150ish points serving a secondary role beyond flag waving and staying alive), but probably isn't in and of itself game breaking. It's simply a very solid use of points. But against that you gain S6 attacks on the charge, with an option of S9 (the foot model caps at 7), or S7 in round 2 or to receive a charge, coupled with re-rollable 1+ AS (against a single 3+ at best). He's certainly more tanky (or even just plain survivable!) and he is enough of a combat threat to contribute to a secondary role.

But he does need a suitable bunker/vehicle. I think dragon princes are (generally) best suited to flank threat and support in minimum units and don't really need his help to succeed in their role. Silver helms work well at minimum squad size (or thereabouts - see Eltharion's excellent guide where he uses 6+ch) to clear chaff or add flank CR etc, or in bigger units to form the chassis of a bus. But with this build (and I don't claim credit for this - was it Lacai who was discussing it recently?) I think you are best served with an in-between number - about 8 or so, with full command. This unit now serves a different role to the two described...you don't necessarily want it charging down chaff, nor do you want it galloping headlong into the enemy's finest. Rather, it can sit back with your infantry battline, keeping pace, charging as and if required, providing the Ld bubble without conflict. There's not a lot this unit can do that your infantry can't and you don't want it in combat willy nilly, but it should be able to pick or choose its battles much better than any other BSB+unit build I've seen.

Best of all, it's easy to fund. Compared to the infantry build, it's only about 21 points extra IIRC. And bumping the helms up from min is about 100 from core, meaning maybe one less unit of reavers or helms or fewer archers, depending on your set up.
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Re: Mounted BSB and “Hold your ground” bubble for infantry

#5 Post by Curu Olannon »

The problem with mounting him in a non-cavprince infantry list is that you suddenly need to spend points on Silver Helms. If you`re running Shadow AM, chances are these points are better spent on Archers to improve Withering and Mindrazor capabilities. If you`re not running Shadow, chances are you`re either running High (in which case 4++ and PG for the Am + BSB is viable), or your build should likely have been different. This is stereotyping, but you get my point.

I think Dragon Princes are a poor investment. I`ve tried them loads and it simply boils down to S5 on the charge, which we can do with our core.
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gaz
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Re: Mounted BSB and “Hold your ground” bubble for infantry

#6 Post by gaz »

To clarify, my queries are less to do with list design (I know that SH + characters, PG and WL are all solid units) and more to do with how such a list functions when the combat units have different speeds but there is a strong incentive to keep them clustered for leadership tests.

I think I understand the Tethlis style list fairly well and I think I also understand the lists where everything is fast (cav +monsters, etc.).

I am a little unclear on what to prioritize in game with a major cavalry unit when it is to be used in conjunction with elite infantry blocks.

I forsee a lot of situations where I might see a juicy target for my cav bus to run off after, resulting in the infantry being outside of BSB range. I’m curious about how more experienced players have managed the dilemma under different circumstances and how it has worked out for them.

I’m more looking for advice on what to do in the movement phase rather than how to build the list (beyond minor alterations). I realise this is somewhat vague and situational but I figured folks might have some valuable experience to share.

Thanks for the replies,
-Gaz
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Re: Mounted BSB and “Hold your ground” bubble for infantry

#7 Post by Ferny »

Curu wrote:The problem with mounting him in a non-cavprince infantry list is that you suddenly need to spend points on Silver Helms. If you`re running Shadow AM, chances are these points are better spent on Archers to improve Withering and Mindrazor capabilities. If you`re not running Shadow, chances are you`re either running High (in which case 4++ and PG for the Am + BSB is viable), or your build should likely have been different. This is stereotyping, but you get my point.
I disagree here. Tethlis has run Shadow very successfully and it's certainly a good lore, no less so in a WL:PG list. However, I've actually found these two units between them have enough teeth to take on anything (when boosted by magic), but the specifics of the magic don't matter too much. Loremaster for regen on lions, iceshard and miasma - sure. Heavens for iceshard and re-rolling 1's, why not. High for 3++ PG and loads of interesting spells - it works. I actually find lore choice really difficult with this list because, while magic is critical, the details are largely redundant between lores.

Here are a couple of sample core lists for 2,400

Core: 604
8xSilver helms +FC: 214
5x spear reavers+mus: 90
5x spear reavers+mus: 90
18 archers+FC: 210

Core 609
8xSilver helms +FC: 214
5x spear reavers+mus: 90
5x spear reavers+mus: 90
5x spear reavers+mus: 90
5x silver helms: 115
(additional command to taste): 10

I don't think the helms look out of place in either list...
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Re: Mounted BSB and “Hold your ground” bubble for infantry

#8 Post by Ferny »

Gaz wrote:To clarify, my queries are less to do with list design (I know that SH + characters, PG and WL are all solid units) and more to do with how such a list functions when the combat units have different speeds but there is a strong incentive to keep them clustered for leadership tests.

I think I understand the Tethlis style list fairly well and I think I also understand the lists where everything is fast (cav +monsters, etc.).

I am a little unclear on what to prioritize in game with a major cavalry unit when it is to be used in conjunction with elite infantry blocks.

I forsee a lot of situations where I might see a juicy target for my cav bus to run off after, resulting in the infantry being outside of BSB range. I’m curious about how more experienced players have managed the dilemma under different circumstances and how it has worked out for them.

I’m more looking for advice on what to do in the movement phase rather than how to build the list (beyond minor alterations). I realise this is somewhat vague and situational but I figured folks might have some valuable experience to share.

Thanks for the replies,
-Gaz
Gaz - if you're going for the bus approach a la Curu then I think different movement rates, different targets for your units and a general need to get your prince into combat ASAP becomes an issue, but I don't think that issue exists in the non-bus approach. To clarify - do you envisage your mounted BSB being part of a bus or more akin to the one I posted? Either approach should, I think, work fine - but they have very different issues.

Incidentally, I've just re-read Eltharion's post above and something like Myrwrm+Crown of Command or MR1+potion make decent foot options for boosting a 'combat' BSB in the PG block.
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Re: Mounted BSB and “Hold your ground” bubble for infantry

#9 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Ferny - indeed Silver Helms can work, but not having the 20-or-so Archers drastically reduces the effectiveness of Withering. With only RBTs and some Sisters to take advantage of it it`s nowhere near as powerful as it could`ve been otherwise.

Anyways, back to Gaz. The short answer is that it depends. Against non-wm armies (of which there are quite a few!) you can simply run him with the infantry. If the WMs are runed anyway, just put him with the BOTWD-unit (something I will be sure to do against Dwarfs instead of hoping for the Helms to stay alive to provide LoS!). This pretty much leaves Empire, Chaos Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdoms, Bretonnia, Tomb Kings and OnG as the only ones where you need the cavprotection. Against these I`m guessing your infantry is advancing rather hard regardless, so the bubble shouldn´t be a problem. With 2 blocks + bus your backline is virtually non-existant, save for some RBT which are, quite frankly, expendable (just make sure to space them over 6" apart to avoid cascading panics etc).

If you have to move the BSB + Prince away so that the bubble is hard to maintain, think about which unit is the least likely to panic. If the enemy presents a magical threat, the Lions can go the furthest away. If the threat is one-hit-panic, such as flame cannons, then you have a harder choice.

Beyond this it`s just too situational to give general advice. If you could present a game where this has been an issue it would be easier to evaluate. It boils down to 2 things:
1. Deployment largely dictates what you can do
2. Prince + BSB do not -have- to go with the Helms
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Re: Mounted BSB and “Hold your ground” bubble for infantry

#10 Post by Eltherion2 »

Well another advantage of the mounted BSb was he is immune to the Dreaded 13th and with Dragon Armour 2+ vs. to Searing Dooms and other Flaming Attacks.
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