What to do against Dual Steam tank + Dwellers empire?

[Sinsigel]

Recently, I've been writing and revising cavalry-heavy 2K list, intended for all-comers.
I wanted to try a list without special infantry block, and I also didn't want to see 25-ish expensive block
melting to nothing because of single casting of dreaded 13th spell.(Thus virtually losing the game at the moment)

However, there is one rough obstacle : Empire using lore of life and plenty of 1+ armour models.
It's a list frequently run by an empire player well-known in my meta, and looks like this

Wizard Lord(Level 4, Lore of Life)

Captain on Foot(BSB)
Battle Wizard(Scroll caddie, Lore of Death)

30-ish Swordmen with 2 detachments of 5 archers each
20-ish halberdiers with single detachment of 5 archers

Great Cannon
3 demigryph knights

Steam Tank
Steam Tank

Unsurprisingly, his infantry blocks march along the center with both flanks covered by steam tanks along with a unit of demigryphs.
Meanwhile the life wizard keep throwing 6-dice at the enemy wizard's unit hoping for IF.
And my current list is like below

Archmage(Level 4, Elven Steed, Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth) - High Magic

Noble(BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Great Weapon, Star Lance, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Dragonhelm)
Mage(Level 1, Dispel Scroll) - Lore of Metal

10 Archers
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Replace Spears with Bows)
9 Silver Helms(Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician)

9 Dragon Princes(Full Command, Ogre Blade, Banner of the World Dragon)
Tiranoc Chariot
Tiranoc Chariot

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
5 Sisters of Avelorn
5 Sisters of Avelorn

1,999pts

If I were to play against such empire list, I would try to oudeploy him and focus the cavalry units on one flank of the empire army.
Bolt Throwers and metal mage focus dealing steam tanks while silver helms and dragon princes try to charge and overwhelm demigryph units,
while reavers and to some extent chariots block steam tanks and infantry block.

Lack of infantry blocks with significant size(i.e. more than four ranks) however means I should be playing to preserve as much points as possible
and pick up relatively easy points(cannon, archers, demigryphs, lone steam tank if i'm lucky).

Still, a single dwellers can ruin my entire plan unless I spread characters(e.g. archmage in DP, noble in silver helms) and a pair of steam tanks is still extremely tough
to manage with 'only' three bolt throwers and metal mage.

I wish i could take eagles and more bolt thrower with those 10 sisters who contribute almost nothing versus these kind of empire list,
but I can't since my list is designed as all-comers.(Against VC, WoC, skaven, they're golden as everyone knows)

[Bashtrigger]

Recently, I've been writing and revising cavalry-heavy 2K list, intended for all-comers.
I wanted to try a list without special infantry block, and I also didn't want to see 25-ish expensive block
melting to nothing because of single casting of dreaded 13th spell.(Thus virtually losing the game at the moment)

However, there is one rough obstacle : Empire using lore of life and plenty of 1+ armour models.
It's a list frequently run by an empire player well-known in my meta, and looks like this

Wizard Lord(Level 4, Lore of Life)

Captain on Foot(BSB)
Battle Wizard(Scroll caddie, Lore of Death)

30-ish Swordmen with 2 detachments of 5 archers each
20-ish halberdiers with single detachment of 5 archers

Great Cannon
3 demigryph knights

Steam Tank
Steam Tank

Unsurprisingly, his infantry blocks march along the center with both flanks covered by steam tanks along with a unit of demigryphs.
Meanwhile the life wizard keep throwing 6-dice at the enemy wizard's unit hoping for IF.
And my current list is like below

Archmage(Level 4, Elven Steed, Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth) - High Magic

Noble(BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Great Weapon, Star Lance, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Dragonhelm)
Mage(Level 1, Dispel Scroll) - Lore of Metal

10 Archers
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Replace Spears with Bows)
9 Silver Helms(Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician)

9 Dragon Princes(Full Command, Ogre Blade, Banner of the World Dragon)
Tiranoc Chariot
Tiranoc Chariot

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
5 Sisters of Avelorn
5 Sisters of Avelorn

1,999pts

If I were to play against such empire list, I would try to oudeploy him and focus the cavalry units on one flank of the empire army.
Bolt Throwers and metal mage focus dealing steam tanks while silver helms and dragon princes try to charge and overwhelm demigryph units,
while reavers and to some extent chariots block steam tanks and infantry block.

Lack of infantry blocks with significant size(i.e. more than four ranks) however means I should be playing to preserve as much points as possible
and pick up relatively easy points(cannon, archers, demigryphs, lone steam tank if i'm lucky).

Still, a single dwellers can ruin my entire plan unless I spread characters(e.g. archmage in DP, noble in silver helms) and a pair of steam tanks is still extremely tough
to manage with 'only' three bolt throwers and metal mage.

I wish i could take eagles and more bolt thrower with those 10 sisters who contribute almost nothing versus these kind of empire list,
but I can't since my list is designed as all-comers.(Against VC, WoC, skaven, they're golden as everyone knows)

I used to play a lot of Life when I first started with HE, I don't do so anymore since my opponents learned to just always dispell throne of vines, without that, he'll think twice just chucking dice to get an IF.

You've got book of hoeth, so he can't really smallball well against you. My advice to you is, prioritize on blocking that throne of vines.

[Sinsigel]

Recently, I've been writing and revising cavalry-heavy 2K list, intended for all-comers.
I wanted to try a list without special infantry block, and I also didn't want to see 25-ish expensive block
melting to nothing because of single casting of dreaded 13th spell.(Thus virtually losing the game at the moment)

However, there is one rough obstacle : Empire using lore of life and plenty of 1+ armour models.
It's a list frequently run by an empire player well-known in my meta, and looks like this

Wizard Lord(Level 4, Lore of Life)

Captain on Foot(BSB)
Battle Wizard(Scroll caddie, Lore of Death)

30-ish Swordmen with 2 detachments of 5 archers each
20-ish halberdiers with single detachment of 5 archers

Great Cannon
3 demigryph knights

Steam Tank
Steam Tank

Unsurprisingly, his infantry blocks march along the center with both flanks covered by steam tanks along with a unit of demigryphs.
Meanwhile the life wizard keep throwing 6-dice at the enemy wizard's unit hoping for IF.
And my current list is like below

Archmage(Level 4, Elven Steed, Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth) - High Magic

Noble(BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Great Weapon, Star Lance, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Dragonhelm)
Mage(Level 1, Dispel Scroll) - Lore of Metal

10 Archers
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Replace Spears with Bows)
9 Silver Helms(Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician)

9 Dragon Princes(Full Command, Ogre Blade, Banner of the World Dragon)
Tiranoc Chariot
Tiranoc Chariot

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
5 Sisters of Avelorn
5 Sisters of Avelorn

1,999pts

If I were to play against such empire list, I would try to oudeploy him and focus the cavalry units on one flank of the empire army.
Bolt Throwers and metal mage focus dealing steam tanks while silver helms and dragon princes try to charge and overwhelm demigryph units,
while reavers and to some extent chariots block steam tanks and infantry block.

Lack of infantry blocks with significant size(i.e. more than four ranks) however means I should be playing to preserve as much points as possible
and pick up relatively easy points(cannon, archers, demigryphs, lone steam tank if i'm lucky).

Still, a single dwellers can ruin my entire plan unless I spread characters(e.g. archmage in DP, noble in silver helms) and a pair of steam tanks is still extremely tough
to manage with 'only' three bolt throwers and metal mage.

I wish i could take eagles and more bolt thrower with those 10 sisters who contribute almost nothing versus these kind of empire list,
but I can't since my list is designed as all-comers.(Against VC, WoC, skaven, they're golden as everyone knows)

I used to play a lot of Life when I first started with HE, I don't do so anymore since my opponents learned to just always dispell throne of vines, without that, he'll think twice just chucking dice to get an IF.

You've got book of hoeth, so he can't really smallball well against you. My advice to you is, prioritize on blocking that throne of vines.

your point on dispel priority is correct, but I personally wouldn't put much hope in it since miscast table is way too forgiving
for the havoc you can wreak upon enemy. Most of the time the wizard gets S6 hits or some 3 swordsmen die as a result.
That's something I wish to see get fixed in next edition though.

[Bashtrigger]

Recently, I've been writing and revising cavalry-heavy 2K list, intended for all-comers.
I wanted to try a list without special infantry block, and I also didn't want to see 25-ish expensive block
melting to nothing because of single casting of dreaded 13th spell.(Thus virtually losing the game at the moment)

However, there is one rough obstacle : Empire using lore of life and plenty of 1+ armour models.
It's a list frequently run by an empire player well-known in my meta, and looks like this

Wizard Lord(Level 4, Lore of Life)

Captain on Foot(BSB)
Battle Wizard(Scroll caddie, Lore of Death)

30-ish Swordmen with 2 detachments of 5 archers each
20-ish halberdiers with single detachment of 5 archers

Great Cannon
3 demigryph knights

Steam Tank
Steam Tank

Unsurprisingly, his infantry blocks march along the center with both flanks covered by steam tanks along with a unit of demigryphs.
Meanwhile the life wizard keep throwing 6-dice at the enemy wizard's unit hoping for IF.
And my current list is like below

Archmage(Level 4, Elven Steed, Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth) - High Magic

Noble(BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Great Weapon, Star Lance, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Dragonhelm)
Mage(Level 1, Dispel Scroll) - Lore of Metal

10 Archers
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Replace Spears with Bows)
9 Silver Helms(Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician)

9 Dragon Princes(Full Command, Ogre Blade, Banner of the World Dragon)
Tiranoc Chariot
Tiranoc Chariot

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
5 Sisters of Avelorn
5 Sisters of Avelorn

1,999pts

If I were to play against such empire list, I would try to oudeploy him and focus the cavalry units on one flank of the empire army.
Bolt Throwers and metal mage focus dealing steam tanks while silver helms and dragon princes try to charge and overwhelm demigryph units,
while reavers and to some extent chariots block steam tanks and infantry block.

Lack of infantry blocks with significant size(i.e. more than four ranks) however means I should be playing to preserve as much points as possible
and pick up relatively easy points(cannon, archers, demigryphs, lone steam tank if i'm lucky).

Still, a single dwellers can ruin my entire plan unless I spread characters(e.g. archmage in DP, noble in silver helms) and a pair of steam tanks is still extremely tough
to manage with 'only' three bolt throwers and metal mage.

I wish i could take eagles and more bolt thrower with those 10 sisters who contribute almost nothing versus these kind of empire list,
but I can't since my list is designed as all-comers.(Against VC, WoC, skaven, they're golden as everyone knows)

I used to play a lot of Life when I first started with HE, I don't do so anymore since my opponents learned to just always dispell throne of vines, without that, he'll think twice just chucking dice to get an IF.

You've got book of hoeth, so he can't really smallball well against you. My advice to you is, prioritize on blocking that throne of vines.

your point on dispel priority is correct, but I personally wouldn't put much hope in it since miscast table is way too forgiving
for the havoc you can wreak upon enemy. Most of the time the wizard gets S6 hits or some 3 swordsmen die as a result.
That's something I wish to see get fixed in next edition though.

There are exactly 6 results out of 11 which you don't want to see (2, 3, 4, 10, 11 & 12) and which I don't find to be very 'forgiving'. Sure, you're more likely to throw any 'middle result' like 5-9, but I can't count on two hands the number of times I either blew up way to many of my own guys, or got sucked into the warp, or was useless for the rest of the game because I lost 2 or 3 wizard levels.

Whether or not you find the table forgiving is a very subjective thing. If I don't have something to mitigate miscast damage (like throne of vines, or BotWD) I'm bound to think twice about throwing more than 4 dice on a spell. Losing more than a 100pnts of models or your mage (easily 200pnts), is not a prospect I relish.

If you're so scared of dwellers, mitigate by putting your characters in a unit that doesn't care about getting a dwellers (like cheap archers). You'll give him the choice about trying to snipe your characters, and hitting a unit worth nothing, or hitting your valuable special choices, but not hitting any characters. Then when combat is about to start, run your characters to where you want them to be. Either way, the gains for him will not be as big, therefore (if you stop throne) the miscast losses have more chance of surpassing the gains.

Otherwise, if your games are friendly, try to set up a house rule that allows ward saves (and magic resist) against all spells that cause wounds or remove models. Thats the rules we implemented when I pummeled my Ogre friend 6 times in a row with Pit of Shades. Warhammer should be fun to play, after all.

[Prince of Spires]

There are exactly 6 results out of 11 which you don't want to see (2, 3, 4, 10, 11 & 12)

The results 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12 are more 12 out of 36 then 6 out of 11...

Rod

[Curu Olannon]

See my most recent reply in the dispel scroll thread. In my opinion this is a matchup you`re set up to lose. I can`t see what you can do about this list: as long as he chucks 6d6 at Dwellers you`re in trouble. You can`t deal with his 29 wounds of 1+ save special stuff either, because the highest strength in your list (apart from RBTs which will be shot down very quickly) is 5. Barring luck (particulary with the winds), you will lose regardless of what you do (assuming equally skilled opponents). The one thing you can hope for is to lock down his STanks and reach his infantry with enough units / strong enough units to take out his characters. STanks take a lot of time to kill stuff in combat as it only attacks every player turn (not twice per game turn as most other combat units), so locking it down can be an option.

Now I would argue your list isn`t the strongest I`ve seen, but apart from tailoring I don`t see what we can do about dual-STank Dwellers Empire at 2k and have a fair chance. L4 Death/Shadow is of course a good starting point (perhaps especially Death as you have 1 point up base on Spirit Leech and he has no ward, so suddenly your spell is more dangerous than his), but this requires a major list re-write as High Elves can`t simply swap lores and be good-to-go.

[Rabidnid]

See my most recent reply in the dispel scroll thread. In my opinion this is a matchup you`re set up to lose. I can`t see what you can do about this list: as long as he chucks 6d6 at Dwellers you`re in trouble. You can`t deal with his 29 wounds of 1+ save special stuff either, because the highest strength in your list (apart from RBTs which will be shot down very quickly) is 5. Barring luck (particulary with the winds), you will lose regardless of what you do (assuming equally skilled opponents). The one thing you can hope for is to lock down his STanks and reach his infantry with enough units / strong enough units to take out his characters. STanks take a lot of time to kill stuff in combat as it only attacks every player turn (not twice per game turn as most other combat units), so locking it down can be an option.

Now I would argue your list isn`t the strongest I`ve seen, but apart from tailoring I don`t see what we can do about dual-STank Dwellers Empire at 2k and have a fair chance. L4 Death/Shadow is of course a good starting point (perhaps especially Death as you have 1 point up base on Spirit Leech and he has no ward, so suddenly your spell is more dangerous than his), but this requires a major list re-write as High Elves can`t simply swap lores and be good-to-go.

Can he pick spells? because getting throne and dwellers is problematic for us these days.

In any event, I would suggest you just set his unit on fire with convocation or snipe him with arcane unforging - or change lores to death and go bowling.

[NexS]

One nasty trick I used to do with a Lv4 shadow mage and archer-heavy lists is use Withering on demi gryph knights and spray arrows at them.
Empire players have an unhealthily strong bond with their demi gryph knights and if you've hand of glory'ed and enchanted blades'ed(if you're taking metal as well) your archers, you're hitting and wounding on 2's or 3's. With that many hits and wounds, they're sure to lose a few wounds (enchanted blades gives you armour piercing too ). This makes for a very unhappy empire player.

I may be a little cruel at times.

[Lord Anathir]

His list doesn't look like it has comp? If not, then your list should also reflect no comp... which for high elves is I think either teclis, 4rbt, world dragon lions, flying nobles OR (maybe) dragon, griffon, 2 birds, helms/reavers, eagles, dp. Its always good to play on an even footing.

[Prince of Spires]

You can`t deal with his 29 wounds of 1+ save special stuff either, because the highest strength in your list (apart from RBTs which will be shot down very quickly) is 5. Barring luck (particulary with the winds), you will lose regardless of what you do (assuming equally skilled opponents).

Not sure I agree. It aint over till the fat lady sings and all that.

Basic tactic I would assume is
- reavers and tiranocs aim for the great cannon T1. It should then get 1 turn of shooting, meaning 2 RBT left
- 6 dice searing doom at the 1+ stuff together with RBT shots.
- Fiery convocation the big units with any dice left. Left overs can go on tempest / soul-quench (boosted) / hand of glory or walk between world as needed.
- archers and sisters are used to redirect / railroad a steamtank

target priority for me would probably be
- great cannon (with the RBT and tiranocs it just has too many good targets) (so 4 units go for it T4)
- demigryph knights (searing doom + 3RBT shots should make a dent, followed by the starlance bsb)
- stank (redirect / deal with as needed)

With the book, you have a slight upper hand in magic, so use that.

Rod

[Curu Olannon]

The cannon should be deployed on the table edge. Assuming 50x50 that`s 34" away from your starting line. Tiranocs with M9 would take at least three turns to reach it, assuming no protection. A sensible general here would deploy infantry + archers around, so even Reavers would have a hard time reaching it. Besides if they go for the cannon, they can`t help in keeping the STanks busy. He can also place demis in front of the cannon - it`s not like he has to advance. Take a look at this report for example (link: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 21#p871221), it`s impossible for me to get at the Cannon. Good artillery line players know how to do this: Good Dwarf players can even keep flyers away from the most precious WMs. Also the cannon should at least be able to get soft cover (if not hard!) for your RBTs, meaning that one RBT averages 1/3 wound per turn of shooting at best.

Basically you can 6-dice fiery convocation on his bunker: if he`s willing to sacrifice the unit then you`re in trouble, however if he cannot then he has to spend loads of dice to dispel it, thus reducing the chance of him getting off Dwellers (reliably dispelling Fiery is 5-6D6 with an L4). The problem is, once Dwellers kills your mage it`s next to impossible to get back in the game with Lifebloom on his side. Being so far behind in terms of magic is extremely hard to get back from (I`ve had my fair share of games like this), even more so when the matchup is this hard.

[Prince of Spires]

How is he behind in terms of magic? It's a lvl4 + caddy vs a lvl4 with the book + caddy. If anything, the HE list is ahead in terms of magic. Also, both lists have several spells that will cause serious hurt on the opponent. Throne + Dwellers is obvious. But in a magical shootout, searing doom and fiery convocation can put out some hurt here as well. And, a big difference is that throne + dwellers are a bit more dependent on each other.

Assuming he even gets dwellers (and as you like pointing out, he will not once every 10 games), you can scroll it T1 and then there is always the option of suicide charging something into the unit to kill of the mage. 3 SH have a decent chance. At least enough to keep him busy for a turn. Also, without throne up, he might just be less likely to 6 dice dwellers. After all, having your general sucked into the warp is not fun.

Beginning of the game I would use the sisters and archers to keep the stanks busy. They don't do much vs this empire list anyway. Which should free up the reavers for a turn or 2.

Yes, it will not be an easy game by any means. The empire list is a lot tougher then the HE one. And you could use some luck (especially early game where it matters most). But I disagree that it is hopeless from the start. Empire going second, having a 1-1 first magic phase and missing the first cannonshot (all not unlikely in itself) can realy turn this game upside down. Or empire just not getting dwellers.

Rod

[Sinsigel]

The reason why I took high magic for my archmage despite its weakness against dwellers is because I wanted to my magic to offer
protection to my cavalry units, and high magic was the lore that could and still show versatility.
Doom divers, organ guns and helblaster volley guns were my great concerns and I expected high magic to provide protection against these.
Hence the reason I didn't choose shadow or death initially.

Against this kind of empire list however sheer offensiveness of shadow/death looks more appealing, like many others have remarked.
This of course means I should seek to protect cavalry units by using means other than Lv4 mage.
My initial idea is to mount the caddie and choose high magic, hoping to provide bonus to ward save with little dice as possible.
The ward save of course is useless against dwellers, but at least the scroll caddie's spells are only a supporting tool.
Shadow archmage will be using most of the dice in the matchup.

Lord : 340pts
Archmage(Level 4, Elven Steed, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation) - Lore of Shadow

Heroes : 315pts
Noble(BSB, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar)
Mage(Level 1, Elven Steed, Dispel Scroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury) - High Magic

Core : 502pts
10 Archers
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Replace Spears with Bows, Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)
9 Silver Helms(Shields, Musician)

Special : 456pts
9 Dragon Princes of Caledor(Full Command, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Banner of Eternal Flame)
Trianoc Chariot

Rare : 386pts
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
9 Sisters of Avelorn

1,999pts

To be honest I opted to write a list that which, unlike my previous 2K lists, doesn't get crippled by single IF 13th spell(thereby erasing more than half of my PG block)
and at the same time best exploit HE mobility.
However as it can be seen from other members' comments on this matchup, I have wondered and am still wondering if I can really stand up against such list with such cavalry heavy army.
I know that every lists have their own worst matchups, but I just wanted to 'mitigate' such hopeless situation by trying different units.
Games starting from 2.5K at least allows some more options such as dual PG+WL block with 4 RBT or something, but at 2K level it's indeed a tough job.

[Curu Olannon]

He is behind when Dwellers kills his mage, not from the get-go. The problem is that no matter how you play it, Dwellers is a problem for a high elf list with an Archmage no matter what: if the spell goes off you`re 50-50 to die. If he doesn`t get Dwellers the matchup looks better because in this case you can actually hang back and play the ranged war. That`s 1 in 10 games indeed However it`s important to note that if it does happen, your L4 with book ensures a superior ranged presence.

I still stand by my statement that barring luck, it`s lost.

@Sinsigel - if war machines are an issue then death is certainly a good choice! Sun instakills them, caress is super powerful (S-) and spirit leech is dangerous

[Sinsigel]

He is behind when Dwellers kills his mage, not from the get-go. The problem is that no matter how you play it, Dwellers is a problem for a high elf list with an Archmage no matter what: if the spell goes off you`re 50-50 to die. If he doesn`t get Dwellers the matchup looks better because in this case you can actually hang back and play the ranged war. That`s 1 in 10 games indeed However it`s important to note that if it does happen, your L4 with book ensures a superior ranged presence.

I still stand by my statement that barring luck, it`s lost.

@Sinsigel - if war machines are an issue then death is certainly a good choice! Sun instakills them, caress is super powerful (S-) and spirit leech is dangerous

Cannon isn't my primary concern. Steam tanks are, hence the shadow lore for the archmage.
Death has two spells that have decent chance of hurting the tanks : Spirit Leech and Purple Sun.(You can add soulblight but -1T seems a bit underwhelming)
Shadow on the other hand has withering, pit of shades and mindrazor.
These are more apporopriate spells and are IMHO more devastating than what death offers.
Tournament-wise, Shadow is also more suited for fighting against tough, high-I armies such as WoC.


P.S.
Suppose opposing life wizard is about to cast dwellers on turn 2.(I can assure that I will have my important units out of dwellers' range during first turn at least)
Here is my thought : All three mounted characters join different units.

For example, archmage joins relatively disposable silver helms, scroll caddie joins dragon princes, meanwhile the BSB
joins a unit of 5 reavers. Strange as it may sound, but in order to shoot down the BSB reliably with warmachines it takes at about three cannons
if I set the unit carefully : First cannonball to kill one or more reaver to deny LoS, second to remove golden crown and the third to remove BSB.

He does have archers, but I'm prepared to shoot them down with my own archers and sister, and getting near the reaver unit is also a problem
for empire archers. Worse, some of his cannons might misfire, miss.
Or even cannot shoot accurately because the cannon is hiding behind units, being unable to draw line of sight to that sweet spot for cannonball.
(i.e. "5.5. inches in front of that unit please.")

Or i could just stick both BSB and scroll caddie to dragon princes but that does increase the risk of losing both.
If you dear members were playing with the empire list in OP, would you find such character placement tricky to handle,
or would you find it to be purely theoretical?

[Curu Olannon]

My apologies, I was still on the old list ^^

Ok so L4 Shadow gives us a few options: As Withering and Enfeebling are remains in play spells, these should hopefully help with your defense. Pit is deadly against STanks. The problem with Dwellers however is still present and as dangerous as ever. Your ranged presence will be reduced very quickly (you can assume that the Empire will target RBTs ASAP and you have few Archers/Sisters).

Splitting characters is ok, but it`ll only work for one-two turns before their units lose LoS!

[Bashtrigger]

You keep mentioning you want a list that doesn't get hurt by 13th so much. Have you ever thought about MSU style?
Swordmaster of Hoeth can help you a lot with that, it also gives you more stuff to direct his Stanks with. Since these kinds of lists pack some more small arms fire, it will also give you more opportunity to shoot down his cannon (small arms fire, if taken in sufficient numbers, does wonders against war machines).

Otherwise, Shadow should give you a nice arsenal against his tougher stuff. Don't forget a mindrazor on DP will do wonders against Stanks as well, if you've managed to get his wounds down some (you don't want it to survive to grind your princes, that stuff hurts).

But if you consider the dweller's to be the more immediate threat, Death gives you some options to try and snipe his mage before he gets yours, while still providing you with answers.

[Rabidnid]

But if you consider the dweller's to be the more immediate threat, Death gives you some options to try and snipe his mage before he gets yours, while still providing you with answers.

Death lvl 4 and and a shadow lvl 1 with miasma

[Sinsigel]

Perhaps it was my mistake on not specifying every bits in the OP empire list, but most of the time the life wizard carries
talisman of preservation. Furthermore, the difference between wizard lord and loremaster's LD is only a single point,
meaning unless I roll unusually high and he rolls unluckily low spirit leech is hardly significant.

Same problem goes for caress of laniph. Although bjuna's fate has good chance of dealing some wounds,
he still has 4+ ward save and my wizard has to be too close to the wizard lord.

Hence I chose to take shadow instead of death. Not only the effectiveness of sniping spells diminish
but without the purple sun shadow is much more versatile.

[Grenic]

Lord : 340pts
Archmage(Level 4, Elven Steed, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation) - Lore of Shadow

Heroes : 315pts
Noble(BSB, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar)
Mage(Level 1, Elven Steed, Dispel Scroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury) - High Magic

Core : 502pts
10 Archers
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Replace Spears with Bows, Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)
9 Silver Helms(Shields, Musician)

Special : 456pts
9 Dragon Princes of Caledor(Full Command, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Banner of Eternal Flame)
Trianoc Chariot

Rare : 386pts
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
9 Sisters of Avelorn

1,999pts

Where your current list is now, for an all comers 2000 point combat focused list, it should work out ok. But like others have noted it will face some difficult match-ups.

I’m still not sure about the sisters though. I realize that you are likely looking for them to score hits on an Abomination (you must see a lot of rats in your local area, I see very few anymore), but another Great Eagle may prove to be more useful especially given your need to control when and how combats occur.

Dropping the sisters would allow you to add another Great Eagle and a 4th Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower. Alternatively, you could just go with 5 sisters if you really need the flaming S4 shots and still add the Great Eagle. However, I would go with the former as it keeps your number of drops down, I think with your list going first is a big advantage as it means that you hopefully will only see Dwellers once before getting into combat with the DP bus. With a single scroll this means that you have a 75% chance of making it through.

I would also consider swapping back in the metal mage instead of using high magic. As the model has the ring, you can likely look to throwing that seemingly always present lone PD at it. As you already noted, you expect the Archmage to use most of the PD anyway. Having a metal caster does put pressure on the Empire player as he/she needs be cautious with DD use. Ideally you should be able to coax out the Dispel Scroll turn 1 between withering and searing doom. This also means that the metal mage won’t be in the DP bus.

For your Core, I would move to 3 units of Reavers (plus musician), 2 with Bows and the third with bows and spears. I would also add a standard bearer to the Silver Helms. Excluding the Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers, this would convert the list into a fully chariot/cavalry/flying list.

If you find that you have to counter vanguard units, then replace the T-chariot with a unit of 5 Shadow Warriors.

Good luck with your games.

It will be interesting to see what you ultimately decided to use and how the games went.

[Sinsigel]

Yes, Grenic I constantly come against WoC, skaven and troll-heavy orcs & goblins
hence the sisters in almost every list of mine.

Swapping the high magic lv1 for metal is also what I've been thinking during the discussion.
It adds more pressure to the empire on dispel priority and in worst case when archmage is dwellered below,
the metal mage can attempt to chuck 6-dice searing doom.
Against doom divers or organ guns, I can just put the mage in DPs for ward save bonus.

[Rabidnid]

Perhaps it was my mistake on not specifying every bits in the OP empire list, but most of the time the life wizard carries
talisman of preservation. Furthermore, the difference between wizard lord and loremaster's LD is only a single point,
meaning unless I roll unusually high and he rolls unluckily low spirit leech is hardly significant.

Same problem goes for caress of laniph. Although bjuna's fate has good chance of dealing some wounds,
he still has 4+ ward save and my wizard has to be too close to the wizard lord.

Hence I chose to take shadow instead of death. Not only the effectiveness of sniping spells diminish
but without the purple sun shadow is much more versatile.

Why not run life and swap dwellers instead? Use beasts and cast wissans on your unit or savage beasts on your archmage? Use light and cast net on his unit so he has to pass a strength test to cast that turn? Use potion of strength on your Arcxhmage during the critical turn?

Dwellers spam is a sad old one trick pony. Choose a lore that suits your style and just murder the wisard or his unit in the normal course of the game.

[Bashtrigger]

Perhaps it was my mistake on not specifying every bits in the OP empire list, but most of the time the life wizard carries
talisman of preservation. Furthermore, the difference between wizard lord and loremaster's LD is only a single point,
meaning unless I roll unusually high and he rolls unluckily low spirit leech is hardly significant.

Same problem goes for caress of laniph. Although bjuna's fate has good chance of dealing some wounds,
he still has 4+ ward save and my wizard has to be too close to the wizard lord.

Hence I chose to take shadow instead of death. Not only the effectiveness of sniping spells diminish
but without the purple sun shadow is much more versatile.

Well, Dwellers doesn't really have an awesome range either, so I figure he's coming to you anyway. And against a S3 T3 model, both Laniph and Bjuna will have a decent chance of killing him off, 4+ ward save or not.

But don't get me wrong, Shadow is always a very fine Lore to take

[lomarot]

I guess the mage sits in the swordsmen unit, sit back miasma movement on the mage unit + wither and focus your 45 arrows (bt+bows+sister) all wounding on 2 he will take 2 turns to arrive in range of dwellers, by that time his unit will be few men left in charge range of the dragon princes who can charge them and destroy, use the Reavers and the eagle to block Stanks from charging your Dragon Princes

[Bashtrigger]

Well, I hadn't played against Skaven a lot, but I just had 2 games in a row against them (two different lists) in a local tournament and dreaded 13th absolutely massacred me. I was playing a funny tzeentch list with a well protected chosen unit. Seems there's no protection to be had against the 13th though, I just gained a very healthy (more like paranoial) respect for that spell.

Now I see why you take it into account when building your list

[Sinsigel]

I'm sorry for pulling out nearly two-month long post, but I did play a game against the empire list I worried about most.
And I thought I'd just use the already existing post rather than starting new one.
My apologies in advance if this caused some problems.

His army list had General, lv4 Life wizard, BSB, warrior priest and master engineer as characters.
He also had 50 swordsmen, 20 handgunners, 25 halberdiers, 3 demigryphs, 2 cannon, 1 volley gun and steam tank.
So while he didn;t have dual steam tank, his firepower is considerably better than just single great cannon.
Below was the list I used

Lord : 340pts
Archmage(Elven Steed, Level 4, Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth) - High Magic

Heroes : 284pts
Noble(BSB, Halberd, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar)
Mage(Level 1, Dispel Scroll) - Lore of Metal

Core : 500pts
10 Archers
6 Ellyrian Reavers
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)
8 Silver Helms(Shields, Full Command)

Special : 456pts
9 Dragon Princes of Caledor(Full Command, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Banner of the World Dragon)
5 Shadow Warriors

Rare : 420pts
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
5 Sisters of Avelorn
5 Sisters of Avelorn

2,000pts

The game was tense and close one, although losing my BSB to dwellers(the archmage in the same DP unit survived though)
gave him just over 270pts to seal a victory for empire.(At the end of game I earned 694 Vp, whereas he earned 910 Vp)
My heavy cavalry and chaff hunted down empire warmachines and demigryphs, while avoiding their infantry.
Picking points with superior mobility did help, but it didn't mitigate 24" threat range of dwellers and durable steam tank.

But then again I did make one obvious mistake during deployment.
Having fewer drops than my list, he prematurely showed his entire formation before I could deploy my key combat units.
Steam Tanks and demigryphs were both placed at his left flank. The right flank only had handgunners and halberdiers.
My mistake was deploying the DP unit facing his left flank.

At that point I was a bit confident about the ability of 4 RBTs and metal mage to nuetralise the steam tank.
It didn't work out well however. Wind of Magic was generally low(2,1 for two consecutive phases), and the metal mage never casted single searing doom successfully.
While demigyphs were easily dispatched by charging DP, i had to spend some turns avoiding steam tank trying to charge my DPs.

It was at those moments(when DPs were moving away from tank) when the dwellers struck my DP unit.
Luckily, majority of DPs and archmage survived but the BSB was removed, giving the crucial 274Vp to empire player.
It might have been better for me to concentrate heavy cavalry at empire's right flank, crushing fragile handgunners and halberdiers
so that both tank and demigryphs would be moving from left to right flank. RBTs might have been much more efficient as demigryphs could expose their flanks.

Apart from deployment mistakes, I did miss the sheer destructive potentials of death and (especially) shadow.
High Magic is indeed versatile and does increase ward save, but the latter is useless against the empire list I faced today.
Unless I can play higher points level where Ican afford S7 prince and other tools, Lv4's Lore should provide spells with good offensive power.
Hence the revised list below.

Lord : 340pts
Archmage(Elven Steed, Level 4, Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth) - Lore of Shadow

Heroes : 321pts
Noble(BSB, Great Weapon, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar)
Mage(Elven Steed, Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury) - High Magic

Core : 507pts
10 Archers(Standard Bearer)
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers
9 Silver Helms(Shield, High Helm, Musician)

Special : 456pts
9 Dragon Princes of Caledor(Full Command, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Banner of the World Dragon)
5 Shadow Warriors

Rare : 372pts
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
8 Sisters of Avelorn

Total : 1,996pts

[Rexhavoc]

So this guy frequently takes a dual stank list to friendly games? Its guys list this that push people away from fantasy by sucking the fun out of games. Any Empire player will be the 1st to say that Stanks are way under priced and the random movement rules are just broken. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of a little exploit (1stank) but pouring points into that aspect and overwhelming the game balance just for some cheap wins is lame. God I couldn't look my opponent in the eye while plopping down 2 Stanks.

Ok I'm off my soap box, sorry......to business then. I definitely like the change of making ur level 2 the high Mage and freeing up ur lv4 for a more Killy lore. Your AM is pretty mobile. Death may be the way to go. Sniping his lev4 off is going to be imperative. Dwellers is obviously a problem but the Stank/Life combo is equally as bad. He will be healing up those Stanks with every cast making them more of a nightmare. Once u deal with the lev 4 those sniping spells actually work pretty well vs WM's and those Stanks too. empire is not a high leadership army so Doom & darkness may help u try to panic off one of those blocks of infantry with a focused fire shooting phase. Soul Blight just rocks so no need to explain there. Purple Sun is another obvious pro. Use the speed of ur cav to get to a good flank angle and let it fly.
I think unless you pull off a game changing gamble like a well placed PS you will have an extremely hard time defeating this list with the one you have chosen. His is ridiculous and yours is a bit on the softer side. Unless u are open to a list overhaul I'd go bold on ur magic and roll the dice.

[Dalamar]

Eh, the couple times I get to face a steam tank it generally worries me a lot and then blows itself up. Last game it scored less points than it was worth, cannon misfired 2 times out of 3 shots and it was dead before it got a chance for another one.

Steam Tanks are particularly vulnerable to anything that ignores armor or uses their subpar stats (other than T/S) so:
Eagle Claws with single shot should put a couple wounds on it every turn. Once down 4-5 wounds it's actually not scary at all.
Searing Doom and Golden Hounds will be priority spell for your opponent to dispel
Spirit Leech will go against its Ld7 (while its out of general's range)
I believe also they are now classified as chariots... so Curse of Arnheir (and Amber Spear) will see them move a lot less (because who in their right mind will risk a 33% chance to take d6 wounds with no save on a steam tank?)
Finally you have Soulblight/Withering to make it more vulnerable to missile fire as well as Pit of Shades or Purple Sun to take advantage of its mediocre I.

We're looking at
Metal, Shadow, Death and Beasts all about equally good to deal with a steam tank or two.

Dwellers is on the other hand is a seriously overrated spell. I've been playing with lore of Life for a while now and always drop Dwellers for something better. If your opponent bases his battle plan on a hard to cast (compared to other insta kill spells) #6 that's rather short ranged then he plays by gimmicks (which you can tell by the rest of the army as well) that need to be exploited.

Small units will make his Dwellers relatively useless. Small units of White Lions will be able to chop Steam Tanks into small bits once shooting brings them down a notch. Plenty of Chaff will keep demigryphs at bay.

So I'd say go with an MSU list supported by Metal magic (best overall against army with that much armor, not just tanks) or a Loremaster (you lose out on some of the upper end spells but gain in versatility) and plenty of high strength shooting. I wouldn't bother with archers, but Eagle Claws and even Skycutters will make short work of his demis and tanks.