[Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

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Curu Olannon
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[Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#1 Post by Curu Olannon »

The purpose of this thread is to detail the various uses of the Banner of the World Dragon. Commonly considered one of the most broken things in the game, this banner is highly flexible as I intend to show you now. The context for this article is typical 2400-2500 point lists where Special Characters are not allowed.

.::. Banner of the World Dragon - Introduction .::.

The banner provides near-immunity to magic in all its forms, as well as making Dragons within 12" stubborn. At its moderate cost, even elite units can take it with ease, thus giving our otherwise fragile T3 5+ save elves some sorely needed protection. Multiple successful High Elf lists have used it and it can be found mounted, on a BSB or in an elite unit which can either be medium-sized or a deathstar.

Many players hate this item a lot and I consider it similar to the Book of Hoeth featured in our last book: people hate what they cannot do anything about. A failsafe 2++ against anything magical really breakes some of the basic mechanics of the game and certain armies (in particular virtually anything DoC can field) really struggle to get past this. Just like the Book of Hoeth used to grant IF on any doubles (when the cast was successful, mind you), there is nothing an opponent can do about this. At best, they can avoid it. While this might in itself be a game-winning strategy (assuming you can kill the rest efficiently), it is still annoying. It`s just basic human psychology.

Most High Elf lists can really benefit from this banner. A few noteworthy exceptions exist, but even if the banner had been MR(5) alone (which is but a fraction of its power), it would be well worth it to a lot of lists in a game where LD10 Spirit Leeches and other sniping spells are prevalent.

.::. Application Areas .::.

The Banner can be used to provide Stubborn for a Dragon, protect a cavalry deathstar, preserve points and provide a safe haven, create an infantry deathstar and provide an elite unit with some much needed durability. Where possible, references will follow.

:: Stubborn Dragon & Points Preservation (1) ::
Prince on Star Dragon: General, Shield, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The other
Trickster's Shard, 598
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: BSB, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Banner of theWorld
Dragon, 172 Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Lance, Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield,
Luckstone, Crown of Command, 140
Mage on Elven Steed: Level 2, High Magic, Dispel Scroll, 155
Mage on Elven Steed: Level 2, High Magic, 130

18 Silver Helms: FCG, Shield, 444
2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers: Champion, Bow Swaps, 95

4x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 70
1 Great Eagle: 50
1 Frostheart Phoenix: 240
Total: 2399
The Dragon and Frostheart work in tandem to create a mobile, high-damage output threat. The supporting bus is very expensive and relatively weak, but in the right matchups (High Elves actually being a perfect example) it can crash home with the Dragon for devastating effect. BOTWD + Shield of Saphery means it is very hard to get big points from the stubborn M9 bus. I`ve seen this list often get away with a minor loss, tie, or even a small win despite the Dragon + Prince going down. After all, it`s "only" 700 vp.

:: Cavalry Deathstar (2) ::
Prince on Barded Elven Steed: General, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, 285
Archmage on Elven Steed: Level 4, High, Crown of Command, Dispel Scroll, 300
Noble on Barded Elven Steed: BSB, Dragon Armour, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength, 170
Noble on Barded Elven Steed: Dragon Armour, Star Lance, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Potion of Foolhardiness, 145

2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow for Spear, 85
2x 15 Archers: Musician, 160
10 Archers: Musician, 110

11 Dragon Princes: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 399

1 Frostheart Phoenix: 240
2x 1 Repeater Bolt Thrower: 70
5 Sisters of Averlorn: 70
1 Great Eagle: 50
Total: 2399
:: Protected Elite Unit (3) ::
Loremaster of Hoeth, General, Lvl2, Heavy armour, Great weapon, Earthing rod, Biting blade, Shield
of merwyrm, 280
Archmage Lvl4, Lore of light, Book of hoeth, Ironcurse icon 280
Mage, Lvl1, Lore of light, 85

Lothern Seahelm, BSB, Shield, Spear, Light armour, Standard of disiplin 140

5 silverhelms shields 115
23 Achers Musician, 240
5 Ellerion Reavers, 80
5 Ellerion Reavers, 80
5 Ellerion Reavers Bowswap 85

28 White lions FCG, Banner of world dragon, 444

1 Frostheart Phoenix, 240
1 Great eagles, 50
Eagle claw bolt thrower, 70
Eagle claw bolt thrower, 70
Eagle claw bolt thrower, 70
Eagle claw bolt thrower, 70


The Banner here allows the Lions to perform a defensive role without being weak against anything and everything that might be thrown their way. Miscast protection is also a big bonus. The Coven of Light combined with Archers and RBT force an enemy`s hand. There are a few lists that out-gun this, but those who do struggle to find big points, and, in the case of Dwarfs, an advancing horde of Lions with BOTWD is very hard to deal with seeing as their war machines are always runed up.

:: Combined Arms (4) ::
1 Prince on Barded Steed@ 271.0 Pts
General; Heavy Armour; Shield;
Giant Blade
Dawnstone
Dragonhelm

1 Archmage on Steed @ 310.0 Pts
Magic Level 4; Lore of Life
Dispel Scroll
Obsidian Lodestone

1 Noble on Barded Steed @ 170.0 Pts
Dragon Armour; Battle Standard;
Enchanted Shield
Star Lance
The Other Trickster's Shard

5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician @ 125.0 Pts
12 Silver Helms, Shields, FCG @ 306.0 Pts

25 White Lions, FCG, Banner of Worlds Drag @ 405.0 Pts
1 Tiranoc Chariot @ 70.0 Pts

1 Frostheart Phoenix @ 240.0 Pts
1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts
4 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower @ 4x70.0 Pts

Total Army Cost: 2397.0
This list was pioneered by Furion, who`s also written about this list in an army blog on this forum. The bus is protected by Obsidian Lodestone, which coupled with Lifebloom makes it very hard to hurt by ways of magic. The BOTWD are essential to supporting this bus.


.::. Summary .::.

This is a rather short article, but there`s only so much you can say about a single item. I hope I`ve shown you some new ways to take the Banner to the field, as well as how it can create unique High Elf lists that otherwise would be be feasible. C&C appreciated :)

.::. References .::.
(1) Used by Italy and Spain at ETC2013 to great effect. Won Conquest 2014 and placed strongly (7th) at SM2014 (though the list was eventually disqualified because standins were used for 2 games, the list itself still proved solid).
(2) Highest-scoring High Elf list at ETC2013. Variations of this list also placed strongly (2nd) at SM2014 and have been run by Malossar as well (see his blog here for details: click
(3) Second highest scoring High Elf list at ETC2013. Small variations of this list won BSK2013 and Conquest 2013.
(4) Winner of multiple Polish tournaments, see Furion`s blog here for details: click
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Re: Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#2 Post by Cold Phoenix »

A couple of other options:

::Dragon Prince Deathstar::


Prince S7, 1+ re-rollable
Archmage, Lv4 High, Book and Stuborn Crown
Star Lance BSB

MSU Core Silver Helms and Reavers

Dragon Prince unit, Banner of the World Dragon (Characters in here).
Block of Phoenix Guard with Razor Banner.

Bolt Throwers X4 or 2 Frosthearts

Other points spent to taste (sisters, scroll caddy ...).

::60 High Elf Elite Infantry::

Archmage, Lv4 High, Book and 5++.
BSB with 2+ and Halberd (or can take Reaver Bow + PoS and hide in a unit of Archers)

Archers, Silver Helms and Reavers

20+ Phoenix Guard with Razor Banner
20+ Swordmasters with Banner of Discipline/Swiftness/Eternal Flame (Archmage here)
20+ White Lions with Banner of the World Dragon

3-4 RBTs

Remaining points spent on Scroll Caddy, Eagles, Shadow Warriors and/or more Elites.
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Re: Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#3 Post by Curu Olannon »

Cold Phoenix wrote:A couple of other options:

::Dragon Prince Deathstar::


Prince S7, 1+ re-rollable
Archmage, Lv4 High, Book and Stuborn Crown
Star Lance BSB

MSU Core Silver Helms and Reavers

Dragon Prince unit, Banner of the World Dragon (Characters in here).
Block of Phoenix Guard with Razor Banner.

Bolt Throwers X4 or 2 Frosthearts

Other points spent to taste (sisters, scroll caddy ...).

::60 High Elf Elite Infantry::

Archmage, Lv4 High, Book and 5++.
BSB with 2+ and Halberd (or can take Reaver Bow + PoS and hide in a unit of Archers)

Archers, Silver Helms and Reavers

20+ Phoenix Guard with Razor Banner
20+ Swordmasters with Banner of Discipline/Swiftness/Eternal Flame (Archmage here)
20+ White Lions with Banner of the World Dragon

3-4 RBTs

Remaining points spent on Scroll Caddy, Eagles, Shadow Warriors and/or more Elites.
Have you seen either of these in competitive action? My point was to illustrate what "we know" works. As there are countless theoretical options, I didn`t feel like going beyond this. It`s up to people themselves to experiment.
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Re: Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#4 Post by Cold Phoenix »

Have you seen either of these in competitive action? My point was to illustrate what "we know" works.
For the Dragon Prince Deathstar you just have to go to Malossar Dragonborne's Army Blog; he's got a number of versions, scattered throughout the 15 pages there. Some don't have the Phoenix Guard, others swap the Lv4 for a Loremaster. I've used some variations on it myself, but usually at 2000 or 3000 points, which didn't seem to be quite what you had in mind.

As for the 60 High Elf Elites, I've done alot of thinking and really want to test it, but don't have any White Lions yet :( . I do know that most of my opponents can't easily deal with 2 blocks of High Elf Elites, let alone 3.
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Re: Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#5 Post by Bashtrigger »

I just want to add that you can use the BotWD well with an Archmage with Shadow, because you can use the smoke and mirrors by switching your Archmage before the misfire result happens, giving your Archmage protection against the misfire, while keeping him safe in a mage bunker at all other times. This does require another character (usually my BSB for me) in the combat unit with the BotWD, and you have to be carefull not to do this when in combat, or when in easy charge range. (If either happens, just eat the miscast, without switching)
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Re: Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#6 Post by Tethlis »

Hey, one of those lists looks familiar!

That's a great summary. I also agree with Bashtrigger's concept about using the Shadow lore attribute to help swap the Archmage in and out of danger as necessary. If the AM is outside of the BotWD unit and Miscasts, I can swap her into it before resolving the Miscast to receive the protection of the BotWD and prevent too many Elves from dying due to Strength 10 hits. If she's in the unit, I can swap her out to help her avoid close combat and mess with my opponent's plants to assassinate her.
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Re: Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#7 Post by Bashtrigger »

Tethlis wrote:Hey, one of those lists looks familiar!

That's a great summary. I also agree with Bashtrigger's concept about using the Shadow lore attribute to help swap the Archmage in and out of danger as necessary. If the AM is outside of the BotWD unit and Miscasts, I can swap her into it before resolving the Miscast to receive the protection of the BotWD and prevent too many Elves from dying due to Strength 10 hits. If she's in the unit, I can swap her out to help her avoid close combat and mess with my opponent's plants to assassinate her.
Exactly! :D

Just a neat little trick, not really gamebreaking, but still fun to use, and a lots of people tend to forget about the sheer utility of smoke and mirrors (in general, not only for this) :wink:
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Re: Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#8 Post by Prince of Spires »

One thing that could perhaps expand this article is an idea of how the banner is used in game. What sort of things do you do with a banner unit (given the lists above) and where does the banner make the difference?

Just an idea.

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Re: Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#9 Post by Bashtrigger »

One important part where the BotWD makes a difference, is that it protects high value units against certain (magical) ranged threats (dwarven war machines with runes, sisters of avelorn, the cascet of souls, magic missles etc.)

Otherwise, is has a lot of value against certain melee units (anything with daemonic attacks, combat lords with magic weapons, anything ethereal) If any such threats are fielded by your opponent, the unit with BotWD is the one that should be deployed opposed to it

Thirdly, the banner has some value in combination with mages (protection against miscasts) and with certain magical items (forbidden rod comes to mind)

Feel free to add more tactical applications, so they can be added in the main article (hopefully)
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Re: Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#10 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

This article is a very good summary of some of the options and if suggested as "summary" then there would have been no issues with it. As "tactical" it has a lot flaws, however.

The author claims that: "The purpose of this thread is to detail the various uses of the Banner of the World Dragon." However, there are no descriptions of these other than "push the units forward". There are no examples from games, no diagrams explaining ideal situations in which the units should be to get the maximum benefits from the Banner etc.

The author also says that "My point was to illustrate what "we know" works" and refused to add the lists other member of the forum suggested on the basis that they might not have been tested in the competitive environment. But he himself does not provide any evidence the lists he presented are actually successful. Does he expect other forum members to take his word at face value?

If the lists he presented are the ones he used to great success himself surely he can point out at what tournaments he placed high with them, what players pack were in use (to give better understanding in what environment the list was successful), what type of enemies they fought. These are very important information for any reader.

It seems that at least one of these army lists was created and used by another player. But there was no links to his topics, no credits were given for his achievements. It is simply unfair to do so. If some of the other lists are also designed by other players, the author should have linked their games/topics and give them credit for their successes.

What is more the author of the article concludes "I hope I`ve shown you some new ways to take the Banner to the field, as well as how it can create unique High Elf lists that otherwise would be be feasible."

It sounds like if it was him alone who provided the lists rather than compiling them from other members. It is not known what criteria he used to assume particular army list is viable in competitive environment. I think it is quite arrogant to provide lists with no further context and then promptly rejecting another forum members his ideas.

The author, being a moderator, should put even more effort to keep the high standards of this forum and heavily re-work this article. Otherwise it is just a lazy attempt at writing a "tactical" article.
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Re: Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#11 Post by Curu Olannon »

Lots of good points here! This was meant to be a draft and I haven`t gotten around to working on it more. Hence my last post was a request for reference, as I know where I have my own. I didn`t move it to the Articles forum and your feedback highlights an ongoing discussion we (Lores & Heralds) are having: How do topics get moved from tactics => tactic articles? Currently any Lore/Herald can do so at his/her own, but we are discussing whether we should implement a process for doing this, to ensure higher quality among the threads in this forum.

I`ll move this topic back to the tactics forum and rename its title to make it clear that as of now, this is just a draft :)
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#12 Post by dragonelf »

As a separate point, you can't jump your wizard out of a unit when casting shadow spells that miscast. The rules state that miscast happens when a spell is resolved, the shadow spell teleport happens after a spells effects have been resolved. Which would also include the miscast. That is part of the spell's resolution.

It also makes sense and stops cheeky teleporting to avoid blowing up your own troops.
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#13 Post by Curu Olannon »

dragonelf wrote:As a separate point, you can't jump your wizard out of a unit when casting shadow spells that miscast. The rules state that miscast happens when a spell is resolved, the shadow spell teleport happens after a spells effects have been resolved. Which would also include the miscast. That is part of the spell's resolution.

It also makes sense and stops cheeky teleporting to avoid blowing up your own troops.
Rulebook, miscast wrote: Once the effect of the spell has been resolved, the Wizard now needs to roll 2D6 on the Miscast table to see what happens to him
Rulebook, Smoke and Mirrors wrote: After a spell from the Lore of Shadow is successfully cast and resolved, the casting Wizard...
So both events take place at the same time. This means that the controlling player can decide what happens first: if he wants the miscast to take effect first, that`s perfectly fine. If he wants Smoke and Mirrors to take effect first, that`s perfectly fine as well ;)
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#14 Post by Bashtrigger »

Curu Olannon wrote:
dragonelf wrote:As a separate point, you can't jump your wizard out of a unit when casting shadow spells that miscast. The rules state that miscast happens when a spell is resolved, the shadow spell teleport happens after a spells effects have been resolved. Which would also include the miscast. That is part of the spell's resolution.

It also makes sense and stops cheeky teleporting to avoid blowing up your own troops.
Rulebook, miscast wrote: Once the effect of the spell has been resolved, the Wizard now needs to roll 2D6 on the Miscast table to see what happens to him
Rulebook, Smoke and Mirrors wrote: After a spell from the Lore of Shadow is successfully cast and resolved, the casting Wizard...
So both events take place at the same time. This means that the controlling player can decide what happens first: if he wants the miscast to take effect first, that`s perfectly fine. If he wants Smoke and Mirrors to take effect first, that`s perfectly fine as well ;)
+1, it's allowed, so why not use it? :)
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#15 Post by Cherubis »

In what way does the BotWD protect a unit from miscast damage? I don't have the book handy as I'm traveling, but iirc it provides a ward save against all magic "attacks" and not "damage". A miscast isn't an attack so much as the models under the template are "hit". Please explain? This is how my (admittedly small) group interprets the item.
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#16 Post by Galder »

Cherubis wrote:In what way does the BotWD protect a unit from miscast damage? I don't have the book handy as I'm traveling, but iirc it provides a ward save against all magic "attacks" and not "damage". A miscast isn't an attack so much as the models under the template are "hit". Please explain? This is how my (admittedly small) group interprets the item.
From GW FAQ:

"Q: What are ‘magical attacks’? (p68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered
to be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically
noted as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items
are also considered to be magical attacks, unless their
description specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls
on the Miscast table are treated as magical attacks
."
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#17 Post by Ether Dude »

From this summary, I got take the banner of the world dragon, add it to a large unit, ignore many game mechanics that other players rely on and thereby preserve points.

How is this worth a tactics article? I will also echo the thought that this is list construction, not anything particularly earth shattering or interesting especially as the "competitive" scene moves toward hyper-defensive play styles where combat units do nothing but deter the enemy from getting into combat.

If you were to make this a full article, I think it would be much more useful to discuss what to do against this particular banner. That would be a tactics article worth making and reading and would go past the dull discussion of "how to never risk any points ever."
How it can create unique High Elf lists.
If you took a sample of the lists in the army list section of the forum, what percent would include the banner? I'm guessing well above 90, and in almost all of these cases, it's on a large unit which serves as a character bunker. Unique indeed.

I'm sorry if this is overly negative, but this summary might be worth a sticky in the army lists forums. Even then, 5 minutes on the internet will tell you this banner is under costed and over effective. Add to this that it's a style of play I abhor and object to being presented as the default, you find why I have such negative views toward this type of article.
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#18 Post by Curu Olannon »

From this summary, I got take the banner of the world dragon, add it to a large unit, ignore many game mechanics that other players rely on and thereby preserve points.
Congratulations, this is the first step to realizing how to play with the banner. Like so many other choices in this game, for example Warlocks, Terrorgheists, Hell Pit Abominations, Skullcannons, Ironblasters, Beasts of Nurgle and Daemon Princes, the item is so good that there is very little reason not to take it. It basically alters the way a game is played. Note that, also like the other choices, it isn`t an autowin and you need to know how best to apply it to make it work well.
How is this worth a tactics article? I will also echo the thought that this is list construction, not anything particularly earth shattering or interesting especially as the "competitive" scene moves toward hyper-defensive play styles where combat units do nothing but deter the enemy from getting into combat.
The problem with the tactics articles section is that it really does encompass more than just pure tactics. We considered different names but eventually ended up with the current one. Many articles are inherently more strategic in nature, such as this, and thus has more in common with army lists than tactics. As for the competitive scene, I highly disagree. The top 6 armies I`ve seen in recent times here included DE flyer-aggro with shooting backup, HE cavstar, TK sphinxspam, Skaven bell, more DE and HE Star Dragon. I don`t see any of these as hyper-defensive. If what you say is true, I`d expect Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs along with shooty-OK and Empire to rack up the big kills, yet neither of them has made an impression on me as of late.

---

Countering the banner is outside of the scope I intend for this article (I really do need to finish it though). As for unique HE lists, call it what you want but I fail to see how one common denominator implicitly makes a list non-unique. It`s like saying every army with a dispel scroll isn`t unique.

If you don`t like the Banner I suggest you make a list work without it and explain to the rest of us how this can be done. Whining about it in multiple threads where its usage is central does not help you in the least and only creates a bad atmosphere here on the forum. What is the purpose of it, really?
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#19 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Curu Olannon wrote:Nobody can decide for anyone else what a competitive list is.
Curu Olannon wrote:The top 6 armies I`ve seen in recent times here included DE flyer-aggro with shooting backup, HE cavstar, TK sphinxspam, Skaven bell, more DE and HE Star Dragon. I don`t see any of these as hyper-defensive. If what you say is true, I`d expect Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs along with shooty-OK and Empire to rack up the big kills, yet neither of them has made an impression on me as of late.
Ah, so all this talk about "optimization" and "proof of concept" is irrelevant. It is also not necessary to tell where these list performed, under what players pack. No need to give credit to the players who lead these army list to victories either. All that matters is if the lists impressed you or not. :lol:
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#20 Post by Curu Olannon »

Let me rephrase, since you`re just out to get me:

At the last 2 tournaments here, the top Empire was 8th/34 @60bp and 14th/101 @64bp. Top shooty-OK was 9/34 @60bp and 4/101 @71bp (and even then this latter result was skyrocketed by a very good matchup and 18-2 in the final game). Top Dwarfs 20/34 @45bp, 85/101 @36bp.

Now granted there are some other defensive lists as well. Chaos Dwarfs didn`t perform well either, nor did OnG.

So, neither of these lists impress me because they do not perform well. The one exception is shooty OK (which was played by rusty, a very capable player) in one tournament, and even then he was never in a position to be able to win. I fail to see how this means that the competitive scene is moving towards hyper-defensive play styles, which was the original claim. As I elaborated on, the high-placing lists have, almost without exception, been aggressive in nature.

In a nutshell, these are Icarus lists: apparantly godlike to not-so-skilled players when wielded by good players, but when they get too close to the sun, they fall down. At SM, a very skilled Empire player had 55bp after game 3. He then met the winning DE list, going 0-20, and met a hard WoC Game 5 as well, losing barely @9-11, for a total of 64bp. The same thing happened to me/my list. The lists aren`t exactly weak per se, they just aren`t strong enough to compete for the top spot unless they get very lucky. Ultra-defensive lists inevitably face these matchups, as they all have super-hard counters and when the cannons fail at a critical point, the game is over by a landslide.
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#21 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

You missed the point. I said you consider the list good/competitive if it impresses you.
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#22 Post by Curu Olannon »

You missed the point, because a list impresses me if it performs well. A list impressing me and a list being competitive is the same, logically equivalent. Thus, one implies the other and vice versa.
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#23 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

You see, this is where we finally agree. There is no other criteria for list competitiveness. Just your opinion. And this is all your expertise in this topic or many others, is based on.

Also, if you want a good atmosphere on the forum you, as a moderator, should lead by example.
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#24 Post by Prince of Spires »

All right, let's bring this back on topic, which is Banner of the World dragon. Any discussions about army lists and when they are competitive can be done in a separate topic if you want.

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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#25 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Rod,

Sure but don't you think army list selection criteria matter in the case of this topic? Curu presented some army lists but rejected the lists suggested by Cold Phoenix. The only criteria we have at the moment is that the list needs to impress Curu. However, how is that making his opinion more important that the other? Did he win a tournament with any of these lists he presented? No. In fact, did he use them all himself and speaks from experience? Not in all cases as he borrowed the lists from other players (not to mention he didn't bother giving a credit to the player who used particular list). Did he at least provided some explanation how Banner of the World Dragon was crucial to the victories particular army achieved? No.

Also, don't you think the form of the post is relevant to the discussion? First, the lists posted by others are ignored. I understand why my own feedback was ignored but when Ether Dude didn't agree with some claims Curu made he got this reply:
If you don`t like the Banner I suggest you make a list work without it and explain to the rest of us how this can be done.
So, you have poorly written article by an author who does not accept criticism and wants others to take his word at face value. Where else such issues are to be discussed if not in his own topic? How do you suggest to follow with the discussion about the topic if such issues are present? Finally, is that the quality of the posts and attitude accepted by the Loremasters on this forum?
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Re: [Draft] Article Submission: Banner of The World Dragon

#26 Post by Curu Olannon »

Okidoky, lists have been thoroughly revised to include solely the ones who have tangible results (PS! Tethlis go win and tournament as I`d love for the PG + WL wombo-combo to get back in the mix ;) ) that I know of. Several lists also have multiple references, which strengthen them a lot.

I`ll get around to working on the rest of the article later.
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