Shadow Warriors - a new 70pt Skeinsilver for the new meta?

[Ferny]

Over on another thread a few comments were trickling in about the new (or rather, newly more important) role for scouts as vanguard blockers.

I know the analogy to skeinsilver isn't quite right, but what if we think of them as a 70pt magic item for board control which also gives up to 5 BS5 S3 scouting shots/turn and can be used as chaff/redirect/emergency bunker etc as a bonus.

I know not many lists found the points for them, despite them being OK, because they competed with things which were better. But might you drop a RBT or some elite infantry from the big blocks or whatever to include them now?

Does this role warrant their inclusion, and to what extent is it list dependent?

[Curu Olannon]

Interesting topic I`ll sit still for a while as I haven`t played these myself, but am wondering the same things you`re questioning in the OP. Let`s see what people who have some experience with them have to say

[SpellArcher]

Well, I use Waywatchers which are slightly different but there are similarities.

They stay in my list because though horribly expensive they can do several useful things. So sometimes they take out a warmachine, sometimes screen things, sometimes pen back Vanguarders or other Scouts, sometimes an emergency redirector (Shadow Warriors obviously better for this). They also have a KB threat, key when you lack RBT.

Some games they won't do much but it's a decent trade-off I feel.

[Tethlis]

It's definitely a good idea. I don't know where the points would come from in my lists, but it's a good idea. Board control is king.

[John Rainbow]

I actually feel like a better trade in a list like mine (and plenty of others) might be the 6 sisters I run for a unit of SWs. Thinking about it, the 6 sisters represent easy points and if they lose a single member of the unit, they go from reliably knocking off that one wound on a troll to not being able to do so and thus regen remains an issue.

[Ferny]

If you're running two units of sisters then losing one or dropping the size of one might be viable, but I wouldn't trade a single unit of 6 John - then you lose even unreliably stripping regen as well as hexwraith counter and you're switching S4 with perks for S3 scouting - looks like a poor deal to me.

But for Tethlis, assuming your current list is the one with 2x10 sisters?, then I think John's right in that points could be re-allocated from there. Your S&S would be weakened and vs some targets your sisters will be less effective in and of themselves, but they'd still be force multipliers and you'd get all the benefits of the SW.

Now for us poor UK boys who play at just 2,400pts, points are even tighter...so I'll wait and watch to see what the US does and then see whether it can translate easily across the Atlantic

[John Rainbow]

@Ferny: in principle I agree with your comments. However, my experiences have shown that 6 sisters get reduced to ineffectiveness in terms of stripping regen almost instantaneously by a good opponent. As such I'm tempted to remove the unit completely from my lists or, beef it up.

[Ferny]

I'd maybe look to beef it up rather than go the other way. Personally I'm a fan of 2x5 - I'd like to like bigger squads (8-10 or more with handmaiden) as their stand and shoot should be respectable, but perhaps like you I find them too vulnerable to magic/missiles so I prefer to keep them small and flexible.

[Viale]

I have started bringing them to all my battles. I love the extra threat I can put on my opponents warmachine/backline. The mere fact I have scouts in my army is enough to put a spanner in my opponents deployment. Combined with reavers and a phoenix/eagle I can have quite a bit of units running around behind my opponents regiments - very handy for that +2 combat resolution from rear charge and +1 charge in a combat my infantry/cavalry has been bugged down in. At 70 pts I have also been using them as redirectors if needed, its cheaper than reavers and if they can buy me a turn I'm not hesitant to use them for that purpose.

[HugoMac]

And in the end, you can always pay them the unit champion, and play the conga within a forest...

[Malossar]

I actually feel like a better trade in a list like mine (and plenty of others) might be the 6 sisters I run for a unit of SWs. Thinking about it, the 6 sisters represent easy points and if they lose a single member of the unit, they go from reliably knocking off that one wound on a troll to not being able to do so and thus regen remains an issue.

This is why I dropped one unit of 6 in place for 5 shadow warriors. Not only are they great vangaurd blockers, but they start setting up those double flees even earlier.

When played right I don't lose the shadow warriors unless I'm tapped out of redirectors and they're the last resort. Or in one game when they were cut down in shame by the crew of a hellblaster >.<

Remember that with LOS, cannons must target the ground, so they're usually in vulnerable positions. same with the new dwarf flame cannons as they tend to be in the front lines to maximize fire range on turn 1 which usually allows my shadow warriors a potentially juicy charge

[Ratvan]

I've played two units of 7 for a 5-6 games now and find them a really useful addition to my MSU lists. In one game versus OnG a unit managed to bait a SOBU bus into position to remove the Level 4 thanks to a lurking unit of Swordmasters and themselves taking out the Blorc BSB in CC. Pretty much won the game for me

[English 2000]

I've been saying for a long time that a unit of 5 is an auto include for me.

Not only do they kill (non-dwarven) war machines easily, they force my opponents to deploy differently.

If I can't get close to a war machine (or there are none) they block vanguarding. Most armies have some sort of vanguarding move now, even the stunties are getting in on the action.

They can redirect if needed (though Reavers and Eagles are preferred).

Arguments about Sister shooting being better while technically correct are missing the point. Shadow Warriors are a tactical unit, killing anything other than a war machine is a bonus. They are there to disrupt, not kill.

I'm not sure about the conga line shenanigans idea. Your champion challenges, they refuse and depending what you face they wipe you out to a man.

[Ferny]

I'd be nice to actually field the lovely new shadow warrior models AS SHADOW WARRIORS!

Interesting to see so much love for them given how much hard shoulder they've had over the years.

In MSU I could do an almost straight swap: 1 min swordmasters for 1 min shadow warriors. In elite infantry bricks I guess you could drop the numbers slighty and not loose too much performance. Would anyone who takes 4 RBTs consider a straight switch there? I'm really looking for support elements we could shave off our basic lists to squeeze these boys in...any more ideas?

And for those of you who do include them same question in reverse - if they weren't in, what would you have in their place?

[English 2000]

I don't field that many rbts, but my options for swapping out the Shadow Warriors are
a) 3rd RBT
b) 2nd Eagle plus White Lion and Swordmaster Champions
c) Tiranoc chariot

So far I've never dropped the Shadow Warriors.

[Malossar]

I would drop the 4th bolt thrower. I find three are necessary, four is just overkill and will struggle to find clear firing lanes especially in an MSU build where you're swarming the table with bodies.

[Viale]

Not only do they kill (non-dwarven) war machines easily, they force my opponents to deploy differently.

Dwarfs can't get the 4th(engineer upgrade) crew member any longer, so it is doable now. They are still hard as nails, but not entirely impossible anymore to engage in close combat.

[Count]

Any battle report with heavy use of SW?