High Magic - Is it over rated?

[cptcosmic]

high magic is not overrated, you just need the proper units to supplement the lore.

[English 2000]

Please, let's not turn this into another cannon discussion thread.

[Curu Olannon]

Please, let's not turn this into another cannon discussion thread.

What`s a "cannon discussion thread"?

[English 2000]

A thread that turns into a "cannons are OP" whinefest, or discussions about the "odds of killing xyz with a cannon".

If we're going to talk about cannons let's go back to the Empire discussion thread where between myself and Stormie we talked all about cannons and the odds of xyz happening quite thoroughly.

[RedPanda]

On cannons I hate them, only because they don't need to roll for their to-hit (which in turn they don't get any shooting penalties like bows), that and there always someway to prevent a misfire in virtually every army that has a cannon.

[Stormie]

Please, let's not turn this into another cannon discussion thread.

Let me guess, you're the kind of person who, on a grim March day, looks up at the sky, and turns to his compadre and say "At least it's not raining". And then it starts raining! So don't do that if you don't want it to rain- and don't mention the c-word if you don't want people giving their opinions on them!

[English 2000]

No Stormie, I'm the guy that hears someone else start to say "at least it's not ra.. " and tells everyone to shut up (though this year it's been never-ending snow, and freezing rain, not rain over here).

So when someone says something along the lines of "but I thought princes never got cannoned off" I ask everyone not go join said person (ie you) going down that dark path. Not that we can have interesting discussions about cannons, just that this isn't the thread for that.

[SpellArcher]

Stormie likes a laugh...



Quite frankly asking him to desist is like Cnut ordering back the waves.

[English 2000]

Stormie likes a laugh...



Quite frankly asking him to desist is like Cnut ordering back the waves.

Haha, that's quite the analogy.

[Stormie]

"Cnut" indeed

[Andros123]

Hi there!

So I've finished the tournament this weekend. Since we are only talking High Magic, I will only touch on matters in my games that was affected by my high magic..
My armie list is the same as the one earlier mentioned in this threat, but with 22 SM, 22 WL and 30 Seaguard and only on noble (BSB). AM lvl. 4 with high and lvl. 2 with shadow.

Here is the results from the tournament. 5 games:
First game vs. Vampire counts - Draw (after turn 2 and 2 miscasts, I had a lvl. 1 wizard left with High magic.)
Second game vs. lizardmen - Win! (I sat his horde of saurus warriors on fire, and my swordmasters did amazingly well)
third game vs. Bretonnia - lost (I just didn't have the answer to all that armour)
fourth game vs. Chaos warriors - I was slaughtered. (brought 2 chimeras, 3 chariots, hellcannon, skullcrushers and some chaff.) I was rushing forward which was a huge mistake.
Fifth game vs. chaos warriors - staggering victory! (1 deamon prince, 1 Chimera, huge block of warriors, skullcrushers, Gorebeast chariot, warshrine, chaff). I played way more defensively this time and was able to shoot/magic of some huge threats and finally combo charge him - it was great )

About the high magic, I don't think it work so well with this list. However, Walk between worlds is a fantastic spell. Hand of glory is also very useful. I think a list with some nobles on eagles, a Phoenix and lots of cav will be better. Our healing spell will also prove better on a list like that.
But I still find myself very often in situations, where high magic is useless. When I need to buff or de-buff it is just very weak. It doesn't answers any questions to High toughness or high armour. At least I think. What are your experiences?
I'm thinking about running shadow or heavens on the lvl. 4 AM next time and high magic on the lvl. 2. After all soulQ and drain magic are both very solid choices.

Anyway, it was my first tournament, so I'm pretty happy with the result. At least I learned a lot.

[Curu Olannon]

Congrats on completing your first tourney

About the high magic, I don't think it work so well with this list.

I agree. You can`t utilize the ward properly: there are no deathstars and no secondary supporting units. You have 2 blocks and that`s it.

However, Walk between worlds is a fantastic spell. Hand of glory is also very useful. I think a list with some nobles on eagles, a Phoenix and lots of cav will be better. Our healing spell will also prove better on a list like that.

I don`t believe in Nobles on Eagles any longer to be honest. WBW and HoG are very good indeed. Phoenix + cav is definitely a strong combo for High Magic, but so is just having cav + shooting + one block with BOTWD as well.

But I still find myself very often in situations, where high magic is useless. When I need to buff or de-buff it is just very weak.

True, because your list is not made to take advantage of it. As I have stated multiple times previously, there is no "I win" button in this lore, unlike Shadow with its Enfeebling, Withering and Mindrazor. However with proper application, the ward save should be significant enough to be a serious buff of its own. Drain Magic and Hand of Glory can be very good combat spells, but they are situational.

It doesn't answers any questions to High toughness or high armour. At least I think. What are your experiences?

It does. Things with High toughness and high armour fear superior mobility, which HoG and WBW provide. Just because the lore doesn`t provide a direct damage spell which flat-out kills a unit of Skullcrushers doesn`t mean it doesn`t have the tools you need.

I'm thinking about running shadow or heavens on the lvl. 4 AM next time and high magic on the lvl. 2. After all soulQ and drain magic are both very solid choices.

Shadow has the "I win" button you seem to miss. Heavens is strong, but beware that this is a lore which, like High Magic, requires careful application. In a typical combat you might have Iceshard + Convergence, and you can`t expect to get more than one through. This won`t change a combat which you`re losing heavily.

Overall you have to pick a lore which suits your list and vice versa. You can`t just pick units and bring the lore you like. High Elves require more careful play than that, you need a clear focus for the army and you have to know how it`s supposed to work.

[Wilda Greenbough]

'High Magic - Is it over rated?'

Reading that title heading gave me the most shocking sense of deja vous, - because way way way back in 6th Edition days I can remember reading a thread exactly like this one.

[Andros123]

Congrats on completing your first tourney

Thank you! It was a lot of fun and I can only recommend people, who want to improve their game, to try it out.

Phoenix + cav is definitely a strong combo for High Magic, but so is just having cav + shooting + one block with BOTWD as well.

Shooting why? My 30 seaguard worked well i think, and it definitely asked some questions to my opponent, when I threw Hand of Glory and upgraded their BS. 30 shots after all with BS 5-7.
But I just don't really see the synergy with having lots of groups with 10 archers and bolt throwers.

Quote:
It doesn't answers any questions to High toughness or high armour. At least I think. What are your experiences?


It does. Things with High toughness and high armour fear superior mobility, which HoG and WBW provide. Just because the lore doesn`t provide a direct damage spell which flat-out kills a unit of Skullcrushers doesn`t mean it doesn`t have the tools you need.

Okay, I have very mobile units, but that doesn't really kill the chimeras or the amoured knights. I need to take these things head on, which can be very risky if I don't get those double charges in.

Overall you have to pick a lore which suits your list and vice versa. You can`t just pick units and bring the lore you like. High Elves require more careful play than that, you need a clear focus for the army and you have to know how it`s supposed to work.

When I mentioned shadow on the lvl. 4 and high in lvl. 2 it was with regard to this list. The list is pretty balanced and not super competitive, but allows me to explore all phases of the game. So if anything it at least provide me with some nice experience, before going with the phoenix guard, knight buses and so on:).

However I still like high magic. I just realized that it might be a bit more difficult to play or make fully use of then other lores. I think I made some pretty good decisions (and horrible ones as well) with the walk between worlds for example. Also Arcane Unforging proved very useful. I striped a chaos hero from his magical armour just before slaughtering him.
So it is very useful, but also situational, which require the general to see these situations, which I think can be difficult.

[Bashtrigger]

My own experiences with High magic have been mixed, It has definate potential, and with a PG bus it's potentially gamewinning, but unless the list is specifically tailored for it, Lore of Shadow will have more synergy with the High Elf army in general.

These days I still love to take High Magic on my lvl2 though. You're guaranteed a way to nullify the opponents buffs in your fase, you're guaranteed a relatively cheap and decent magic missle (although the range could be better), you might roll a cheap and effective buff in Hand of Glory, you might roll a cheap but very usefull tactical advantage in Walk between Worlds and you'll be casting as a lvl 3 to boot.

Whether you consider High Magic overrated or not entirely depends on how high you rated it in the first place though. I consider it a very welcome addition to my Shadow arsenal, even in lists not tailored to High Magic.

[Curu Olannon]

High synergizes well with shooting + cav because it`s a type of list who can easily get points without easily giving them away. The ability to hang back and safely rack up to what eventually becomes 13-7 or is very powerful. Sea Guard shoot worse than Archers. Armoured Knights are most definitely countered well with WBW as the main problem with these are their superior mobility. Hand also helps here. The Chimerae is a niche element but even they can`t charge a full block of Lions. Besides, boosted Soul Quench is dangerous for them.

As for High L2 with this list, I suppose it`s fine but I doubt it`s the best to be honest.

[Bashtrigger]

My comment was mostly a reply to the topic in general (High Magic being overrated or not?) I don't consider it overrated because I personally love to wield it on my lvl2 for the reasons mentioned above, I never considered a certain army list while making that post

But after looking at his list, I don't agree with your sentiment that High Magic on the lvl 2 wouldn't work in his case. Having some percieved threat on his lvl 4 (a pit of shadows, a dwellers below etc.) that might come up, I'd hesitate more dispelling my oponent's High Magic, especially since he'll still cast as a lvl 3. And you basically shouldn't be focused on getting of more than 2 spells anyway, so if you start of with your HM spells on your lvl 2, chances are he'll let one of those through, to have dice left for what your lvl 4 can dish out. A lvl 4 with Shadow, augmented by a lvl2 with High Magic should do fine in that list.

The next list would be a nice example of a list I've played with some succes that works really well with High Magic:

Archmage (lvl4)
book of hoeth
High Magic

Anointed (general)
giant blade

Mage (lvl2)
dispell scroll
Shadow

Noble (BSB)
talisman of preservation
great weapon

Handmaiden
reaver bow
potion of strength

14 Sisters of Avelorn

22 Phoenix Guard
full command
razor standard

9 White Lions

9 White Lions

20 Archers
full command

10 Archers

10 Archers

5 Ellyrion Reavers
replace with bows

5 Ellyrion Reavers
replace with bows

Total: 2400

Here you take advantage of everything HM has to offer.
You make use of the +1 ward save (PG bus)
You make use of hand of glory (either the sisters or your larger block of archers, later on your PG in combat)
You make use of WBW (fielding your WL in a block of 3x3 makes it really easy to WBW them into a flanking position, because wheeling will hardly cost movement, and you can WBW your groups of 10 Archers into a redirecting position)
The only thing less important now is Apotheosis, but your eagle, BSB or Anointed might still be happy you're packing it
The last 3 spells will always be usefull

To use Soul Quench, just stay in frontrow untill you feel you'll need to charge soon or untill your opponent gets into range for his charge, note that you can use WBW after casting your SQ to return your Archmage to second row

If either the BSB or Anointed dies and exposes your Archmage, use the Smoke and Mirrors from Shadow to pull him out (sacrificing your lvl2) otherwise make use of Melkoth's to reduce return fire and slow them down and hope on a Enfeebling Foe, Withering or Okkam's Mindrazor to augment combat
And note that Melkoth's on his unit for -WS and hand of glory on yours for +WS will almost guarantee him needing 5's to hit!

If you don't fancy Shadow on the lvl 2, a lore of Beasts (wyssan's obviously) or a Lore of Heavens will work fine too (hand of glory - he needs 5's, iceshard blizzard and he now needs 6's to hit, not to mention protection against shooting)

[Viale]

I like High Magic on a level 2 wizard, to me it is an extremely versatile lore and typically brings something I can use without expending too many power dice, that is, if I'm bringing a Loremaster/level 4 as well. I think you have to have the lore in mind when building your army, just as every other part. So instead of choosing lores to make up for deficiencies it should be complementary throughout building your list. Some lores, on a level 2 at least, could probably be substituted fairly easily but have their own problems - casting cost and utility is my immediate concerns.

There are a few factors that may differ from person to person: do you make all-comers lists or not? how many points do you usually play? what is the most fun aspect of playing High Elves(cavalry, infantry, big things)? I always make all-comers lists, even knowing I'm going up against my friend playing dwarfs I will include a dispel scroll if I think my army lacks magical defense in general. My group usually play 2000 pts battles since we rather have more games than longer games and 2000 pts allows for people to bring what they wish while having to make some hard decisions (can't have it all). I like dragons, shiny knights, chariots and feel is's not an elven army without at least some archers. This coupled with the points allowance my group uses leads to me finding high magic very good. My lord allowance is all used on the prince on dragon. My unit of 3 chariots have many wounds, so does my flame and frost phoenix. I order to squeeze in some magic defense I have a level 2 with the scroll. This feels imperative due to the low model, high cost setup my army comprises.

This leads to high magic becoming very complimentary:

Drain magic: helps defend my prince/silver helms/fire or flame phoenix from nasty hex spells

Soul Quench: brings a bit more firepower to my army(the only other thing I have that shoot are 3 chariots and 15 archers)

Apotheosis: This lets me heal some of my many multiwound models

Hand of Glory: can really help my silver helms, chariots or phoenixes, or give my archers a little help in eliminating a dangerous chaff unit. The initiative boost can potentially be what leds you reroll or not

Walk Between Worlds: I have not rolled this spell yet, but I imagine both my chariots or archers could benefit from the mobility boost. Having a flame phoenix also presents a very tasty option for this spell.

Tempest: This can help whittle down my opponents biggest unit even though they might have toughness 4, the -1 to hit is nice and could help my expensive low WS models survive: Silver Helms, flame phoenix

Arcane Unforging: this can perhaps turn the entire game, if getting rid of that key item.

Fiery Convocation: This is just like tempest, just much better - whittle down large combat blocks with the added effect of sucking up my opponents power Dice in his turn I he wants to get rid of it - hopefully leading to me not being smashed by magic.


The only place I feel the lore being out of place is actually the lore attribute. I have my mage running around with the archers making the shield somewhat wasted potential. The little added protection against miscasts makes it not quite useless, and the fact I'm playing my archers somewhat aggressively(I'm not averse to charging them into combat with chaff/light troops) means I play them in a manner that sees them benefiting a bit, +6/+5 ward save is better than none.


I was contemplating Life magic instead since it provides the nice "regain wounds" lore attribute. The problem with life on a level two mage in my opinion is Regrowth and Throne of Wines and the casting cost. It is an amazing lore on a level 4 but on a level 2 I feel there is too many spells that becomes a waste.

Casting cost is also something I consider a boon regarding High Magic. I feel my level 2 wizard actually has a chance of getting both spells through no matter which ones I get. Whereas if it was another lore I feel a bit more apprehensive towards getting just one spell through if rolling bad for the Winds of Magic.


I suppose my point is that I can explain/defend each and every spell in the High magic lore as well as the see the potential complimentary role of all of them in conjunction with how I play my army.

[cptcosmic]

My comment was mostly a reply to the topic in general (High Magic being overrated or not?) I don't consider it overrated because I personally love to wield it on my lvl2 for the reasons mentioned above, I never considered a certain army list while making that post

But after looking at his list, I don't agree with your sentiment that High Magic on the lvl 2 wouldn't work in his case. Having some percieved threat on his lvl 4 (a pit of shadows, a dwellers below etc.) that might come up, I'd hesitate more dispelling my oponent's High Magic, especially since he'll still cast as a lvl 3. And you basically shouldn't be focused on getting of more than 2 spells anyway, so if you start of with your HM spells on your lvl 2, chances are he'll let one of those through, to have dice left for what your lvl 4 can dish out. A lvl 4 with Shadow, augmented by a lvl2 with High Magic should do fine in that list.

The next list would be a nice example of a list I've played with some succes that works really well with High Magic:

Archmage (lvl4)
book of hoeth
High Magic

Anointed (general)
giant blade

Mage (lvl2)
dispell scroll
Shadow

Noble (BSB)
talisman of preservation
great weapon

Handmaiden
reaver bow
potion of strength

14 Sisters of Avelorn

22 Phoenix Guard
full command
razor standard

9 White Lions

9 White Lions

20 Archers
full command

10 Archers

10 Archers

5 Ellyrion Reavers
replace with bows

5 Ellyrion Reavers
replace with bows

Total: 2400

Here you take advantage of everything HM has to offer.
You make use of the +1 ward save (PG bus)
You make use of hand of glory (either the sisters or your larger block of archers, later on your PG in combat)
You make use of WBW (fielding your WL in a block of 3x3 makes it really easy to WBW them into a flanking position, because wheeling will hardly cost movement, and you can WBW your groups of 10 Archers into a redirecting position)
The only thing less important now is Apotheosis, but your eagle, BSB or Anointed might still be happy you're packing it
The last 3 spells will always be usefull

To use Soul Quench, just stay in frontrow untill you feel you'll need to charge soon or untill your opponent gets into range for his charge, note that you can use WBW after casting your SQ to return your Archmage to second row

If either the BSB or Anointed dies and exposes your Archmage, use the Smoke and Mirrors from Shadow to pull him out (sacrificing your lvl2) otherwise make use of Melkoth's to reduce return fire and slow them down and hope on a Enfeebling Foe, Withering or Okkam's Mindrazor to augment combat
And note that Melkoth's on his unit for -WS and hand of glory on yours for +WS will almost guarantee him needing 5's to hit!

If you don't fancy Shadow on the lvl 2, a lore of Beasts (wyssan's obviously) or a Lore of Heavens will work fine too (hand of glory - he needs 5's, iceshard blizzard and he now needs 6's to hit, not to mention protection against shooting)

you are actually wasting alot of potential.

first, you have only one serious combat unit, everything else is squishy and easily run over. the PG will simply be avoided and the rest of your army will be cleaned of the table... you need atleast another combat unit that is able to hold a charge for 1 round thus you are able to retaliate with your PG deathstar

second, if you take an anointed then take him together with the lvl 4 high archmage and put them both into a bigger unit of white lions. if you are looking for a combat character supporting the PG just take the prince.

[Bashtrigger]

My comment was mostly a reply to the topic in general (High Magic being overrated or not?) I don't consider it overrated because I personally love to wield it on my lvl2 for the reasons mentioned above, I never considered a certain army list while making that post

But after looking at his list, I don't agree with your sentiment that High Magic on the lvl 2 wouldn't work in his case. Having some percieved threat on his lvl 4 (a pit of shadows, a dwellers below etc.) that might come up, I'd hesitate more dispelling my oponent's High Magic, especially since he'll still cast as a lvl 3. And you basically shouldn't be focused on getting of more than 2 spells anyway, so if you start of with your HM spells on your lvl 2, chances are he'll let one of those through, to have dice left for what your lvl 4 can dish out. A lvl 4 with Shadow, augmented by a lvl2 with High Magic should do fine in that list.

The next list would be a nice example of a list I've played with some succes that works really well with High Magic:

Archmage (lvl4)
book of hoeth
High Magic

Anointed (general)
giant blade

Mage (lvl2)
dispell scroll
Shadow

Noble (BSB)
talisman of preservation
great weapon

Handmaiden
reaver bow
potion of strength

14 Sisters of Avelorn

22 Phoenix Guard
full command
razor standard

9 White Lions

9 White Lions

20 Archers
full command

10 Archers

10 Archers

5 Ellyrion Reavers
replace with bows

5 Ellyrion Reavers
replace with bows

Total: 2400

Here you take advantage of everything HM has to offer.
You make use of the +1 ward save (PG bus)
You make use of hand of glory (either the sisters or your larger block of archers, later on your PG in combat)
You make use of WBW (fielding your WL in a block of 3x3 makes it really easy to WBW them into a flanking position, because wheeling will hardly cost movement, and you can WBW your groups of 10 Archers into a redirecting position)
The only thing less important now is Apotheosis, but your eagle, BSB or Anointed might still be happy you're packing it
The last 3 spells will always be usefull

To use Soul Quench, just stay in frontrow untill you feel you'll need to charge soon or untill your opponent gets into range for his charge, note that you can use WBW after casting your SQ to return your Archmage to second row

If either the BSB or Anointed dies and exposes your Archmage, use the Smoke and Mirrors from Shadow to pull him out (sacrificing your lvl2) otherwise make use of Melkoth's to reduce return fire and slow them down and hope on a Enfeebling Foe, Withering or Okkam's Mindrazor to augment combat
And note that Melkoth's on his unit for -WS and hand of glory on yours for +WS will almost guarantee him needing 5's to hit!

If you don't fancy Shadow on the lvl 2, a lore of Beasts (wyssan's obviously) or a Lore of Heavens will work fine too (hand of glory - he needs 5's, iceshard blizzard and he now needs 6's to hit, not to mention protection against shooting)

you are actually wasting alot of potential.

first, you have only one serious combat unit, everything else is squishy and easily run over. the PG will simply be avoided and the rest of your army will be cleaned of the table... you need atleast another combat unit that is able to hold a charge for 1 round thus you are able to retaliate with your PG deathstar

second, if you take an anointed then take him together with the lvl 4 high archmage and put them both into a bigger unit of white lions. if you are looking for a combat character supporting the PG just take the prince.

I take the anointed in the PG because the anointed starts with a 4+ ward and therefore allows me to take the +3str blade, a prince would not

And with 7 drops before I have to drop my PG, plus enough small arms fire to whipe his redirecters, I've never had someone easily avoid my PG, granted it has happened but only once.

Besides, a flank charge with one of those WL groups often allowed me to hold for at least one turn (sometimes my opponents too) thanks to stubborn, allowing me to set up the charge in my turn again with the PG.

The only thing I was wondering about when I played that list was to go less character heavy, because I used a lot more characters in that list than I normally would.

In all fairness, the list worked fine for me, but I suppose it always depends on your metagame, when my friend started to play more empire with double steamtank and griffin knights, he gave me a lot of trouble. I think I've won about 50-60% of my games with that list, which definately doesn't make it my best list, but it's a High Magic centered list and it worked after a fashion.

You're welcome to post an example of how you would play a High Magic centered list

[cptcosmic]

I take the anointed in the PG because the anointed starts with a 4+ ward and therefore allows me to take the +3str blade, a prince would not

And with 7 drops before I have to drop my PG, plus enough small arms fire to whipe his redirecters, I've never had someone easily avoid my PG, granted it has happened but only once.

you are wasting a bunch of special rules with the anointed in the PG, points which could be spent better somewhere else. with the prince you can take the merwyrm shield and still rock a huge ward in combat.

amount of drops and archers are nice but does not help against everything. there is terrain, TLOS and cover. hiding chaff first and then move them right infront of your PG is not hard and your archers cannot do anything about it. all you can do is trying to reform, charge them or shoot them with to hit modifieres but the gist is that I have delayed your only combat unit.

beside that your small WL are a liability considering you have one big unit because they are too small. I will happily charge them with my serious combat units, wipe them out and overrun past your PG into your backline. if you keep them back they are simply wasted, everything is decided by the time you manage a flank charge with a unit that is kept in the backline.

just saying.

[Bashtrigger]

I take the anointed in the PG because the anointed starts with a 4+ ward and therefore allows me to take the +3str blade, a prince would not

And with 7 drops before I have to drop my PG, plus enough small arms fire to whipe his redirecters, I've never had someone easily avoid my PG, granted it has happened but only once.

you are wasting a bunch of special rules with the anointed in the PG, points which could be spent better somewhere else. with the prince you can take the merwyrm shield and still rock a huge ward in combat.

amount of drops and archers are nice but does not help against everything. there is terrain, TLOS and cover. hiding chaff first and then move them right infront of your PG is not hard and your archers cannot do anything about it. all you can do is trying to reform, charge them or shoot them with to hit modifieres but the gist is that I have delayed your only combat unit.

beside that your small WL are a liability considering you have one big unit because they are too small. I will happily charge them with my serious combat units, wipe them out and overrun past your PG into your backline. if you keep them back they are simply wasted, everything is decided by the time you manage a flank charge with a unit that is kept in the backline.

just saying.

Well, again, post a list you think works then, I wanna be able to challenge with my Lord, and I fight a lot of Ogre Kingdoms, Merwyn shield works against a lot of things, but it's not failsafe, additionally the extra 2 magic resist helps protect the unit from magic missles. I've done all the thinking through and this is how it ended up, and like I said, I've had succes with the list.

But again, if you think you can do better, then post your own list, we can talk about eventualities all day long, but I've played the list, so I'm well aware of it's weaknesses and it's strengths.

I never said I was some genius mastermind with the best list out there. This is a list I've played with some succes that in my opinion utilized High Magic well.

[cptcosmic]

I didnt meant to talk your list down, all I said is that you could milk abit more out of it with some adjustments

[pk-ng]

The next list would be a nice example of a list I've played with some succes that works really well with High Magic:

Archmage (lvl4)
book of hoeth
High Magic

Anointed (general)
giant blade

Mage (lvl2)
dispell scroll
Shadow

Noble (BSB)
talisman of preservation
great weapon

Handmaiden
reaver bow
potion of strength

14 Sisters of Avelorn

22 Phoenix Guard
full command
razor standard

9 White Lions

9 White Lions

20 Archers
full command

10 Archers

10 Archers

5 Ellyrion Reavers
replace with bows

5 Ellyrion Reavers
replace with bows

Total: 2400

Your list is illegal for starters.

[Stormie]

Wouldn't it be nice if 9 White Lion units were legal though?

[Bashtrigger]

Wouldn't it be nice if 9 White Lion units were legal though?

Hah lol, since Swordmasters are 5+, I just assumed White Lions were too, and now I'm taking a better look, it's now actually only the Swordmasters that allow 5+ unit size