High Magic - Is it over rated?

[SteVieBizzLe]

First of all, hello everyone!

Been a long time high elf player and forum troller, but only recently stumbled across Ulthuan.net (travesty, i know). So to kind of introduce myself I wanted to make my first thread a pertinent one.

High Magic.

When I first read its rules when the new book came out, like most i was very impressed and excited to start using it. However after a few games, the reality set in and i found that the lore was very predictable and almost counter intuitive. I shall explain.

Lore Attribute

Shield of Saphery, what a suberb lore attribute, probably the best in the game from any lore. However to really get the use from this lore attribute, we have to stick the archmage up front in a combat unit. This is exactly where an expensive T3 wizard does NOT want to find himself. The alternative is to have super protected archers...

So further analysis of the lore in use on the table, kind of takes the shine away from this really awesome lore attribute. Now there are ways to get around this problem, ie take the D. Prince bus so the archmage can hide his a** in the second rank. However this leads into another problem I found from running High Magic.

Spell selection

High Magic has some ridiculously good spells, when considered in isolation. Lets take an example spell set you might roll:

Soul Quench
Apotheosis
Hand of Glory
Fiery Convocation

Its gets to the high elf magic phase. the archmage is in a dragon prince unit, which is in combat. Straight away, we cannot cast Soul Quench. Lets also assume no characters have taken wounds (at T3 they usually die outright before you can heal them IME), so Apotheosis is useless. We can cast Hand of Glory which wont make much difference as the princes already hit on 3's and we cannot get the enemy hitting on 5's, so the opponent lets it go. Then throws all dice at fiery convo and probably stops it, unless of course you get IF. So we cast 1 pretty pointless spell and only get +1 to the ward save of the unit. Rather disappointing magic phase by elf standards.

What this means in short, I have found that every game I have taken High Magic i find myself with only 1 spell to cast that will make a difference, which of course is then dispelled by my opponent.

And to simplify, I just find High Magic underwhelming at best, and useless at worst (when you consider all the factors necessary to maximize its effects). Now this is all just from my own experience playing with the new book and I know for sure that some of you will have a different opinion to mine.

maybe I have just been unlucky with my use of High Magic, either way let me know what you guys think!

-SteVie

[Nicene]

You can cast Apotheosis without healing any wounds, just for the ward save.

[RedPanda]

Do not put the Archmage in your Dragon Prince Unit. A High Magic archmage is mainly used out of combat.

If you wish to give them a ward save boost, a lv1-2 mage would do better than high archmage in a dragon prince unit being you only need to boost their ward save by 1-2.
You can also instead use a beast mage.

[Tethlis]

The big thing with High Magic is that, except for Fiery Convocation and Vaul's Unmaking, most of your spells are going to be less spectacular than a rulebook lore. The advantage is almost entirely in the Ward Save. When I use High Magic, I build the list around it. Giving the Level 4 a Ward Save, giving him an appropriate unit to run around in, plus supporting combat characters to provide additional hitting power, etc. are all considerations that go into playing a "solid" High Magic list. If your Level 4 is simply going to hang out in the backfield, then yes, High Magic spells aren't all that great. The lack of focus or redundancy in the Lore means that you're unlikely to get through a spell that you really need, unless you risk the Miscast or your opponent messes up his Dispel priority. If you go for maximizing the Ward Save though, viewing the Ward Save as the true function of using High Magic, it becomes much more effective.

[SpellArcher]

This is exactly where an expensive T3 wizard does NOT want to find himself.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=57709

It's all about the synergies IMHO. The Book (and Blessing of Lileath) is really important so you can spam stuff and ratchet up the Ward save. Support caster is a very good idea, both for the scroll and simply for a bigger spell repertoire, avoiding some of the problems you've outlined above sir. Plus Drain Magic may be a better pick than the missile.

Edit: Partly ninja'd by Tethlis.

[SteVieBizzLe]

I agree with most of the points that you guys have said, although its not in my play style to take a magic lore to simply bump up a single unit. It is a good lore with some good spells, the problem is getting those good spells without loremaster (something we really should have as a magic item or something).

I like having tactical flexibility from my whole list, including magic. High magic is just a little too one dimensional when used to its main strength.

Thanks for the replies!

-SteVie

[SteVieBizzLe]

This is exactly where an expensive T3 wizard does NOT want to find himself.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=57709

It's all about the synergies IMHO. The Book (and Blessing of Lileath) is really important so you can spam stuff and ratchet up the Ward save. Support caster is a very good idea, both for the scroll and simply for a bigger spell repertoire, avoiding some of the problems you've outlined above sir. Plus Drain Magic may be a better pick than the missile.

Edit: Partly ninja'd by Tethlis.

A support caster is one thing, but going a lvl 4 is another. a lvl 2 with both sigs is actually really useful and something i do play. Even drain magic is situational, I haven't had a need to cast it yet. Maybe thats my meta, maybe its my luck.

-SteVie

[Tethlis]

Drain Magic is circumstantial indeed, but so are many of the other spells. I think the key is to make sure you always have something you can cast that's useful, so you can maximize the Ward as well as applying a useful effect to the table. Drain Magic doesn't always qualify as useful, but in some matchups it can be absolutely fantastic. Thankfully, as a default spell, it means we can always grab for it if we feel we need it.

[SpellArcher]

I reckon you need High Magic on the lvl4 so you can use the Book, the +5 and the quantity of spells that buff the Ward to best effect. Take another Lore on the lvl 2 to give you that range of options the Lvl4 won't have on his own.

[Curu Olannon]

High Magic is not underwhelming, it is different. It is created to give you the most mileage out of the Book of Hoeth, with an attribute that can make lots of units super-durable. A number of successful lists have proven its viability.

What you cannot expect however is to take High Magic on a level 4 mage, chuck the 6D6 as you do with oh-so many of the rulebook lores and win games in the ensuing phase.

[RedPanda]

Well high magic is more of a utility lore, basically does everything (healing, buff, do damage, debuff, dispel, give ward save, protection movement)

Also some lores are better with certain type of armies, an example is the Life lore which is perfect for high defense units, high HP monsters, and/or large sized units, but it is bad for MSU armies (cannot being back fallen units if the entire unit is dead).

[SteVieBizzLe]

High Magic is not underwhelming, it is different. It is created to give you the most mileage out of the Book of Hoeth, with an attribute that can make lots of units super-durable. A number of successful lists have proven its viability.

What you cannot expect however is to take High Magic on a level 4 mage, chuck the 6D6 as you do with oh-so many of the rulebook lores and win games in the ensuing phase.

First of all, how do you make 'lots' of units super durable? you effect one unit. Unless you mean lots of units that can benefit well from the attribute

Secondly, don't presume to know what i expect from using the lore of high magic. I despise any lore that relies on throwing 6 dice at a bomb spell and is the reason i refuse to take lores of life and death as you fall into that trap.

Thirdly, the BoH is good with any lore not just high magic.

And finally, yes you can build a successful list with high magic, but forgive me for not jumping at the chance to take a massive deathstar unit and making it 'unkillable' with the lore attribute and basically having a boring game.

In all honesty, nothing you said defends the lore of high magic in any way

[RedPanda]

You do have to realize that most mages will better outside of combat if they have 4 spells to select from being a few of them goes to waste being you have to target the opponent.
This is not just a High magic problem, but all with all lores.

Beast, Life and High magic does better being they have a few aspects that affect themselves in combat, still you are likely to nuke 1-2 and rarely 3 spells out of your random spell list because you got into combat. While other lores literally lose their entire spell list and become useless being they only have what 1 spell out of their entire selection that can affect in the middle of combat.

Unless the mage is built around being in combat with their spell selection or lore attribute, dont put them in combat. Also decide if the mage is overkill for its application (like putting a lv4 High Archmage in a movement 9 calvary which will see combat on the first 2 turns is inefficent when you can easily just toss a lv2 mage for the ward save which casts as a lv3)

[Tethlis]

Interesting discussion. My replies in blue.

First of all, how do you make 'lots' of units super durable? you effect one unit. Unless you mean lots of units that can benefit well from the attribute

I suspect he meant that lots of units within our book all like having Shield of Saphery. Silver Helm and Dragon Prince Cav Busses, Phoenix Guard, White Lions, Swordmasters, these are all units that can be the focal point of a Shield of Saphery setup.

Secondly, don't presume to know what i expect from using the lore of high magic. I despise any lore that relies on throwing 6 dice at a bomb spell and is the reason i refuse to take lores of life and death as you fall into that trap.

Well then... What do you expect? I think he was speaking rhetorically in terms of "expectations". Simply saying that, unlike a lot of other lores, High Magic's focal point has nothing to do having an uber spell. So players who use that as a means of defining a successful magic phase are going to find High Magic to be disappointing under that criterium.

Thirdly, the BoH is good with any lore not just high magic.

True, but the book makes the most of its potential in a magic phase where you get natural bonuses to cast, as well as have relatively low casting values for all spells. High Magic fits that description perfectly: with two low cast value default spells, low cast values across the board, and lots of spells that can be cast no matter what the situation or setting, you basically have a lore that ensures you can attempt 4 spells a turn with a reasonable chance of success. Using 4 re-rolls a magic phase with Book of Hoeth puts it to greater use than one or two re-rolls that a player might make use of with a different lore.

And finally, yes you can build a successful list with high magic, but forgive me for not jumping at the chance to take a massive deathstar unit and making it 'unkillable' with the lore attribute and basically having a boring game.

I'm with you on this one. I really like the fact that High Elves can build a great list that doesn't rely on ~800 points of characters all crammed into a unit with a 3+ Ward Save. I've tried it several times for the sake of completion, but it makes for a damn unsatisfying game.

In all honesty, nothing you said defends the lore of high magic in any way

Well if we're talking about the "optimal" way to use High Magic, I'd say he did a fine job. High Magic is at its best when you use the book and sling a ton of spells to buff a unit. Some people are into that, some people aren't. If you don't like that approach, then yes, High Magic is a pretty lackluster Lore because it lacks the focus necessary to enhance a playstyle unless you heavily optimize its lore attribute.

[Gondarion]

While it is clearly optimized on a L4 with Book High Magic does work very well on a support L2, as some of the spells it provides are notably different than those found in other lores, especially Drain Magic and Arcane Unforging. So you can take a Loremaster or L4 with Shadows and get great utility out of the L2 with the +3 to cast.

[Curu Olannon]

High Magic is not underwhelming, it is different. It is created to give you the most mileage out of the Book of Hoeth, with an attribute that can make lots of units super-durable. A number of successful lists have proven its viability.

What you cannot expect however is to take High Magic on a level 4 mage, chuck the 6D6 as you do with oh-so many of the rulebook lores and win games in the ensuing phase.

First of all, how do you make 'lots' of units super durable? you effect one unit. Unless you mean lots of units that can benefit well from the attribute

Secondly, don't presume to know what i expect from using the lore of high magic. I despise any lore that relies on throwing 6 dice at a bomb spell and is the reason i refuse to take lores of life and death as you fall into that trap.

Thirdly, the BoH is good with any lore not just high magic.

And finally, yes you can build a successful list with high magic, but forgive me for not jumping at the chance to take a massive deathstar unit and making it 'unkillable' with the lore attribute and basically having a boring game.

In all honesty, nothing you said defends the lore of high magic in any way

Number 1: High Magic and Lots of Durable Units

Poor wording on my part. In theory you could boost multiple units with multiple mages in the same phase, but this was not what I meant. What I meant was that we've seen success with different units being supported by High Magic. Cavbus, Swordmaster support block and PG deathstar are good example of very different units and these show how versatile the lore attribute is: a cavbus typically uses it for points-denial, a Swordmaster support block goes from being very mediocre to being pretty decent, while the PG are turned from resilient to a WTF-BBQ style 3++ deathstar (given the right characters, of course).

Number 2: Expectations and High Magic

First of all, your entire analysis is based on the single spell focus, so I wasn't assuming anything. You did not delve into how casting many spells is inherently superior with a high cast bonus and BoH re-rolls, nor how synergies appear when multiples are cast. Anyways, I will get back to this point, so let's talk expectations now. Most players look to magic as their powerhouse, where their army lacks another. Examples include Winrazor, the Skillers Below and Purple Game Over which are widely (and infamously) known for their ability to single handedly win games. Thus, most players forego the nitty-gritty details of a tactical magic phase, unfortunately. High Magic was written specifically to force this mindset to be successful. If your list does not reflect this mindset, you are incapable of taking advantage of it. Unlike Shadow, which you can apply to any list and it will be incredibly powerful, High Magic forces you to think (roughly) as follows: "Given my list in an all-comers environment, how can I benefit greatly, reliably and in different ways of getting multiple, smaller spells through in my magic phase?". If you cannot answer this question, chances are you haven`t done your homework and shouldn`t be taking high magic.

Number 3: BoH and power relative to Lore

Your argument here is a no-brainer: of course an item which improves casting is GOOD with any lore. However, on an Archmage, it is clearly vastly superior on High Magic than any other lore. Why? With an innate +5 to cast, you want to be casting as few dice per spell as possible. If you cast 1D6, the cast bonus provided by the Archmage accounts for over +100% to the result, relative to expected value (3.5 for a single die). If you spend 6D6, it is much less significant. Therefore, to maximise the advantage of his innate bonus, the fewer dice per spell, the better. Likewise, Book of Hoeth increases the expected value of a SINGLE D6, so the less dice you use, the more effective the item. Combined, these facts make it incredibly hard to defend against a trickle magic phase from a Level 4 Archmage using the Book of Hoeth with High Magic. Granted, an argument could be made that BoH is also very good on 6D6, since it increases the chance of IF. I consider this to be outside the scope of the current discussion, as the difference between ~25% and ~30% is negligible since you are praying for luck, regardless, to get your spell off with IF.

Number 4: Variants of High Magic Lists

As I examplified previously, High Magic can be used in a number of different ways to achieve success. You don`t have to build a deathstar with it, but you have to merge it into your army. I`ll provide 3 list examples with explanations of why High Magic is such a strong choice:

Seredain`s combined arms approach (cav prince + bsb, am 5 ICI++ and BoH on foot with 20 Swordmasters carrying BOTWD. Lots of shooting and SHelm delivery system for Prince + BSB): The Archmage allows the Swordmasters to provide a main combat unit that would otherwise be impossible: while BOTWD is great for magical enemies, they are still very fragile to mundane attacks. The ICI gives them a great base for Shield of Saphery against a plethora of enemies and Deflect Shot also synergizes very well here. Also note that WS6 means that any cast of Hand of Glory makes them WS7 and thus WS3 needs one better to hit. This can be taken advantage of by bringing a support caster with Miasma, or Heaven`s with Iceshard. Also note that a 20-strong unit like this is VERY dangerous with increased M and WBW is a brilliant spell on them. The rest of the list can benefit from Apotheosis (1+ re-rollable prince) and Fiery Convocation (helping with clearing Hordes). Clearly a well-thought way to utilize High Magic without making a deathstar of it.

Points-denial Cavbus (Star Dragon, 2x Nobles and 2x L2 Mages with 13 Silver Helms. The rest of the core is Reavers, while RBTs, a Frostheart and Eagles round out the list for 2400 points). One of the best HE lists at the ETC `13. Basically, an opponent cannot target anything in this army: things just move too fast. Furthermore, the SHelms are too numerous and too strong with Shield of Saphery to be shifted at range. Lastly, 2x L2 can double up on Soul Quench to provide this army with real ranged hitting power to win chaff-wars and go for small wins where appropriate and full-on cannot be applied. Although the bus totals like a thousand points complete with bonuses, it`s by no means a deathstar but a very effective way of capitalizing on the big monsters without bleeding easy points from core. High Magic`s default Soul Quench also provides extreme flexibility and Hand of Glory, Walk Between Worlds and Apotheosis are great spells with this list (Fiery is too hard to cast on 5D6 with level 2`s). Also note that despite only having level 2`s, due to taking High the casting bonus is +3, making it harder to dispel.

Full-on Deathstar (E.g. 25 PG, Razor Standard, Prince with S7, 4++ etc etc). The most "classic" way to employ the Shield of Saphery, a list even recently won the US Masters with this approach! Well, not much needs to be said here, really: get anything off and you`re good to go with a rock hard unit. Anything else is kind of more of a bonus, really, and even then the lore has some incredibly good spells: WBW is great on a deathstar, as is +M. Drain enables you to fight stuff you otherwise wouldn`t want to, like a regen-toting Ogrestar for example.

High Magic is about flexibility, redundancy, tactical spell casting and list synergy. It is not an auto-win lore, nor is it underwhelming. However it is a lore that requires skill to properly utilize, and the army to go along. Not every army needs it, nor can fully take advantage of it, but those who do can wield it with devastating effects.

[SpellArcher]

Despite no longer using High Magic, I've a lot of respect for it because of the way it forces you to interweave elements of your army as Curu has outlined. I don't think I ever rolled more than four dice with it under the old book. Convocation is a nice option but as said it isn't the focus of the Lore. However, there is something beautiful about rolling up a 6 v 4 phase after drawing the scroll and simply removing a monster with a bubbled Savage Beast for example. 6-dicing is just one option you have but if the opponent hasn't planned for it he's going to suffer. It just shows what a headache dealing with the full range of magic phases out there can be.

[Stormie]

It’s a very difficult lore to judge, because a lot of the spells really are situational, but they do cover a lot of the bases; need to obliterate a small enemy unit? Can do. Massive deathstar? Can do that as well. 1+ re-rollable enemy character? You can even snipe him and destroy his magic items. But it really does take quite a lot of skill and planning (and perhaps some luck) to get a good set of spells going. I’ve only used High Magic a few times, and it might just be my playstyle but there’s rarely been more than one must-cast spell, especially if/when the Mage is in combat.

If you take a lot of far-reaching damage spells (Soul Quench, Fiery Convocation, Arcane Unforging), then you might have a good selection of spells before combat, but once there you’re stuck with not a lot to do. Or you can go for the general utility spells, which are sometimes excellent- you’ll very rarely not have a use for Walk Between Worlds. But is Hand of Glory really so amazing? Boost up a single unit’s BS, and even a big unit, say, 15 Sisters, might turn 5 hits to 10 hits… in which case a 2D6 Str 4 missile would do more magic. Or casting on a Bolt Thrower… you’d be better off with Amber Spear nearly every time.

Then there’s the Lore Attribute, which people go absolutely gaga overm especially on this site. If you only ever have a single worthwhile target, then sure yeah it’s great, but if they’re put off from shooting Swordmasters thanks to a 4+ ward save then there’s probably Archers or Reavers or anything that will make up for it. It does help you force your hand a bit more, but that brings us back to the problem of, if you’re pushing your Swordmaster block forwards safe in the knowledge that they will have a good ward save, then you could still get charged, and do you really want your Archmage vulnerable? Probably not.

I’m also consistently amazed that people love their one-dicing so much. If you attempt three one-die spells before you launch into your final strong spell, then that’s three 1/9 attempts at failure, which adds up to about a 1/3 chance that you’re going to screw up your best spell that phase. And those one-dicers probably include at least one spell that does little else than raise your ward save. Don’t make the mistake of being so greedy with your dice. I remember reading a tournament report who kept using only 4 dice to try and cast Fiery Convocation with his Book of Hoeth, which is about 75% chance, and kept commenting as if he’d been really unlucky every time he’d failed. Pehaps he thought that the dice average out, and that because he’d already failed, that he was sure to succeed again (but in fact, that’s not how dice work).

Still, I think it’s a decent lore, not totally amazing but then it doesn’t have to be. I think a lot of gamers are a bit disappointed by it because the Lizardmen do so much better from it than we do, e.g. a Slann in a unit of Temple Guard will certainly be advancing on the enemy, better use for movement and WS additions, etc.

[Curu Olannon]

Stormie, I think (based on your post exclusively) that you`re still in the wrong mindset for High Magic. As I noted above, you need to build your list around the lore, not just pick units you like and then slap on a lore at the end. You question Hand of Glory. If you do not have a super-strong unit to receive it at all times, then probably the fault lies with the roster. Examples of units who can really benefit:
- mid-to-big sized elites. Boosting movement is insane on our infantry.
- mid-to-big-sized Archers and Sisters. Provides more hits which can be crucial e.g. to take down a war machine.
- Any elite infantry or cavalry unit in combat. Most others elites are WS5, meaning our elites automatically receive +1 to hit if the spell goes off. Swords being WS6 don`t have this problem, but in return they are guaranteed WS7+ (5+ to hit for WS3-) and can even go as high as WS9 (hitting most lords on 3+ and WS4- now need 5+). Take a Heaven`s mage for backup with Iceshard and Hand of Glory suddenly looks scary: if you go for the deathstarbuild a character with Glittering Scales can really capitalize on these things.

Overall I agree that the spells aren`t insta-cast-win, but if your list is built correctly then you`ll see that the impact of spells such as Drain, Soul Quench, Hand of Glory and Apotheosis become way more significant. I also agree about your sentiment re: 1D6 casting. I`m much more comfortable spending 2D6, as 89% for multiple casts is a little on the low end. Still though, the fewer dice the more significant the bonus +5 and BoH re-roll: at 2D6 with High Magic you have a sweet spot where your spells will be incredibly hard to stop while maintaining a trickle effect. Of course there`s always the threat of 1-dicing with a high probability as well for your opponent do consider, but I hardly ever base entire phases around it.

[Selvhan]

I like to have a mage lvl 2 with High magic. It's +3 to cast and if I don't roll the spell I want/need, both sig are still useful.

Since I never really know against who I will play, I often like to have my AM using the lore of Light.

[RedPanda]

In my opinion High magic is about "stacking" the odds in your favor with a swiss army knife which is easy to use at the cost of game breaker delete unit off table spells.
Literally everything in our lore has some type of way of debuffing/chipping away at the enemy or buffing ourselves.

It is a different mindset than the core lores, Beast magic is the closest core lore to high magic for the correct mindset of how to think about our lore.
Think of it like buffing our unit or debuffing the enemy unit in order for our units to do the job with ease.
The mage is not doing the work almost like he does not exist, he just is just the sun in the opponent's eyes so your army can defeat the enemy with ease.

[Stormie]

Stormie, I think (based on your post exclusively) that you`re still in the wrong mindset for High Magic. As I noted above, you need to build your list around the lore, not just pick units you like and then slap on a lore at the end. You question Hand of Glory. If you do not have a super-strong unit to receive it at all times, then probably the fault lies with the roster.

Ahh, fear not, I do know this, in fact I've said it before myself in previous discussions

Examples of units who can really benefit:
- mid-to-big sized elites. Boosting movement is insane on our infantry.

Really, is it that insane? A third of the time you're looking at 1" extra movement. Useful? Sure. Jaw-droppingly amazing? Probably not. Give me a Flamespyre Phoenix and Walk Between Worlds, now that's how you do some amazing cheap magic!

- mid-to-big-sized Archers and Sisters. Provides more hits which can be crucial e.g. to take down a war machine.

But in my post I gave a genuine example of this spell's use, the spell being cast on a unit of 15 Sisters- you're unlikely to get a bigger unit than that. Let's get some maths on here:
1) They need 6+ to hit. Best improvement makes them 3+ to hit- you've just gone from 2.5 hits to 10 hits (Average 7.5 hits, sometimes 5). In other words- for the same level of "luck" in your diceroll, you'd have been better off with a 2D6 S4 missile.
2) 5+ to hit, would hit 5 times, now with spell you're up to 7.5/10/12.5. Again, better off with a 2D6 MM.
3) 4+ to hit, would hit 7.5 times, at this stage you're getting diminishing returns and would certainly have been better off with the MM.

Those extra few hits may well help you kill a warmachine- but for the same level of luck you'd have got more hits from a magic missile.

That's with a much larger unit than nearly everyone uses! You can do the same sort of calculations with a unit of 30 Archers, roll well you'll bag 15 more hits, more likely you'd get 10 extra S3 hits. Again- give me the MM!

Of course there are mitigating factors that make it worth while- that bit of extra movement to help you for positioning, you could have a Reaver Bow character in the unit, so it's not terrible... you're just usually better off with a standard magic missile.

Any elite infantry or cavalry unit in combat. Most others elites are WS5, meaning our elites automatically receive +1 to hit if the spell goes off. Swords being WS6 don`t have this problem, but in return they are guaranteed WS7+ (5+ to hit for WS3-) and can even go as high as WS9 (hitting most lords on 3+ and WS4- now need 5+). Take a Heaven`s mage for backup with Iceshard and Hand of Glory suddenly looks scary: if you go for the deathstarbuild a character with Glittering Scales can really capitalize on these things.

Even with this example you'd be better off casting Iceshard Blizzard if you're going for a -1 to hit- and that will help Swordmasters vs Chaos Warriors. Obviously, if you were fighting Chaos Warriors then you'd go for the boosted version to get that initiative boost too- but that's part of the crux; if you're in combat, you probably want to be casting Hand of Glory and won't have many other options to help (unless you have another Lore). And yeah, you can get Swordmasters up to WS9, and make WS4 troops hit you on a 5+. This is something you suggest so obviously you think that's an effective use of dice- but it will only help in that combat 1/3 of the time- the times you only get a 1 or a 2 on your D3, congrats, you've just cast a spell that has only activated the Lore attribute. Good in many situations, like giving White Lions that extra edge, although you'd be better off casting the Shadow Miasma instead- both Hand and Miasma will guarantee the White Lions hit on 3+, but Miasma will also make Chaos Warriors hit on 5+ 1/3 of the time as well. Get Hand off as your White Lions are fighting Ogres, and 1/3 of the time, it's no help; Miasma will always make them hit you on 5+.

You do get the +1 to cast for High Magic, and bonus Lore attribute so it's not all doom and gloom, but if the solution to make High Magic work is "use a deathstar", then that's not my cup of tea.

[Tethlis]

With regard to Hand of Glory, if you're in a position to simply freecast either the magic missile or +D3 Ballistic Skill, then your point is dead on: you'll often want to use the magic missile, since it's statistically going to generate more hits against a broad range of targets.

That being said, it's probably your opponent who gets to decide what goes into play; the magic missile or Hand of Glory. Being able to access both, to create a comparable effect, lets you create useful redundancy in your magic phase. Scoring hits with a Strength 4 Magic Missile... Great. Scoring more hits with Strength 4 sisters... Also useful. Your opponent can choose what he wants to prioritize, but it's nice having the option for both.

Also worth mentioning, Soul Quench is fairly short range as far as Magic Missiles go. Especially with High Magic, the caster's LoS, movement, ability to cast out of combat, etc. might be very limited due to the caster primarily support their own combat unit. Sisters, by contrast, are always going to want to be shooting at high priority targets, so enhancing the role they're already fulfilling is often going to be easy and reliable.

Let's also not forget that Sisters are also Flaming, and Armor Piercing in many matchups. Sometimes one of those two factors will make Sister shooting statistically better and more useful than a magic missile. Similarly, if they're expecting to eat a charge next turn also, a more reliable stand-and-shoot is never bad.

[Curu Olannon]

@Stormie - indeed valid points, despite having an above-average sized unit the final output isn`t that different to, say a Fireball or even soul quench. Also, as you point out, Miasma is usually better than HoG when it comes to effects in combat: by reducing a low WS rather than buffing a high one you gain a bigger difference (percentage-wise). The problem with these spells are two-fold: they exist in separate lores and they are not high magic spells. That means they are harder to get a hold of (unless you play with a Loremaster) and they miss the extra +1 to cast and Lore attribute. Let`s agree that HoG offensively is roughly the equivalent of a magic missile: sometimes an MM will be better, sometimes HoG will be better but largely the effect is kind of the same. Now, let`s look at movement:

+1M is huge. I played dozens of games with our last book where my Lions had +1M from Swiftness. It is a much bigger deal than you realize until you`ve tried it. Being able to march 12" instead of 10" gives you so much more board control. Now the average for HoG is +2, resulting in possible 14" marches from infantry. This is a really big deal, but also for charge opportunities this spell is huge: usually opponents will be fine with taking risks like parking units at ~10-11" needed for normal infantry. HoG can make this go as low as 7+! I haven`t been able to capitalize on this myself yet as I haven`t played with lists that allow it to make a big difference, but I`m confident that this is key to maximizing the potential of the lore.

High Magic provides utility and redundancy in small parts at a time. However, if your list cannot capitalize on the lore attribute + spells like HoG, WBW properly, then it`s likely a bad lore for you. It doesn`t have to be a deathstar, but the unit has to be significant enough to become a real threat with the ward save (i.e. not archers). 20 Swordmasters with the Archmage is a good example.

[Stormie]

Let's also not forget that Sisters are also Flaming, and Armor Piercing in many matchups. Sometimes one of those two factors will make Sister shooting statistically better and more useful than a magic missile. Similarly, if they're expecting to eat a charge next turn also, a more reliable stand-and-shoot is never bad.

I don't really disagree with any of the points you both make (and the additional BS coming into play for stand and shoot is an excellent point), but I do want to point out that Sisters of Avelorn do not have the Armour Piercing rule against anyone (it's just a bonus -1)! Not a big deal or relevant to this topic but people keep repeating it all the time, so let's hope this is the last time

The talk on bonus movement is also very interesting, it's one thing to say it's HUGE, but evidence is much nicer (even just anecdotal!). Extra movement is always good in theory, of course, but is it always useful in-game? I would anticipate that even if I did add +3" movement to one of my infantry units turn 1, I probably wouldn't end up needing to march up 16" the next turn anyway. Inversely, even if it's not explicitly used, that doesn't mean it isn't useful though, as it may affect the enemy's choices as well. Not disagreeing with you here either- I just want to experience it myself

[Gondarion]

High Magic provides utility and redundancy in small parts at a time. However, if your list cannot capitalize on the lore attribute + spells like HoG, WBW properly, then it`s likely a bad lore for you. It doesn`t have to be a deathstar, but the unit has to be significant enough to become a real threat with the ward save (i.e. not archers). 20 Swordmasters with the Archmage is a good example.

I agree with this point especially. High Magic is designed to work with armies based around elites. This is because it is a tactical lore that is about dictating terms of the battle and setting up moves, and its damage spells are geared towards hordes. Finally, the lore attribute (as well as hand of glory and drain magic) are about mitigating/removing deficits/weaknesses, rather than giving all new capabilities to your units, which is fine when your elite infantry already has excellent capabilities but is easy to kill in return. If you're investing heavily in core infantry/shooting, Shadows is clearly a better option. All this being said, I wouldn't invest in High Magic in isolation, you want another lore or a Loremaster along with it for ideal combinations. And I'm hardly a good argument in favor of High Magic, because I'm not that good at Warhammer tactics.

[RedPanda]

I do have to agree, our major nuke spells is to take out massive unit formations. Which is perfect being we hate: massive unit formations.
Personally I think it is good to have 2 High Magic casters being we have 8 spells. Too bad we dont have the two arcane items anymore (the one that allows us to pick spells, and the other that gives us one more spell)

We also have to realize that depending on where your mage is on the battlefield you might not be able to cast them due to the range of the spell and where your mage is on the battlefield or what type of unit he is in.


I myself actually prefer Hand of Glory over Soul Quench.

My reasoning:
Hand of Glory you can cast it on any friendly unit in range, or the mage himself if you want to.
WS - it can affect inside combat, which can make the entire unit be high unhittable which can mean losing nothing and making the enemy run or just keep your unit alive for a long time.
BS - can affect those who are geared toward shooting (archers, Sisters, Bolt Thrower) while not as great as Soul Quench but you also have to realize that Soul Quench is also randomized hits so you could get 2 hits or could get 12 hits. Plus with ranged units if they moved they get a -1 modifier, and also another -1 modifier if they are shooting long range plus any cover/skirmish the opponent has so you can be effectively bringing a unit from hitting on 5-6+ to 2-3+. You do have to realize that in a unit of 5 it is worthless, while 10+ it starts to get worthwhile, and 15-30+ which can rival Soul Quench. Bolt throwers are a different story but I dont think you will be in range of the bolt thrower except in the beginning of the game which you have to decide if you want movement or BS boost.
Ini - we wont be using this at all, maybe in a team up game or vs another High Elf.
M - how do I say this, if you are good with movement the it will shine, an extra 1-3 inches is pretty good, and you can almost move as fast as a horse, if casted on a mounted unit even further projection. It allows you two "WHEEL" around opponent which is the main problem with rank and file units is wheeling to flank the opponent. This is out shined by WalkbetweenWorlds which is awesome but if I had to pick 1 spell I would pick Hand of Glory due to versatility and can be used on units even if they are not in combat.

Soul Quench cannot be used on units that are in combat, your mage cannot also be in combat,you have to be really really close to the opponent to use Soul Quench, your boosted version does not increase distance, and you can only use soul quench to do one thing: magic missile spam.
There is one MAJOR bonus of this spell. We have this in item format, therefore you can have more spells. But you are going have to decide if you want Soul Quench or Fireball for the same point cost.

[Toledo Inquisition]

For those of you who like our lore, do you not find the spell ranges to be too short? I'm primarily a dragon player, but in my tests with High magic, I tend to run my mage in the back with archers. Frequently it seemed that my spell ranges were 6" too short - so a 18" magic missle seems much less useful when considered versus a standard 24" magic missle range. If we had the Lizard's lore attribute, sure, but with ours? Not so much for me.

It just could be my playing style, but our L2 jack of all trades with 8 known spells has put my L4 High mage to shame in all my test games, when I am going magic heavier than a scroll caddy.

[Andros123]

However, on an Archmage, it is clearly vastly superior on High Magic than any other lore. Why? With an innate +5 to cast, you want to be casting as few dice per spell as possible. If you cast 1D6, the cast bonus provided by the Archmage accounts for over +100% to the result, relative to expected value (3.5 for a single die). If you spend 6D6, it is much less significant. Therefore, to maximise the advantage of his innate bonus, the fewer dice per spell, the better. Likewise, Book of Hoeth increases the expected value of a SINGLE D6, so the less dice you use, the more effective the item.

Yes and no. I read this statement that "the fewer dice the better" a lot in here, but I'm not sure it is true, for the following reason:

You are right, that the book increases the probability the most, when using a small amount, ultimately 1 die to cast. However, in this discussion I think you also have to consider to which probability the book takes us, and not only the incremental increase it offers.
Extreeme example, that would make my point clear:
You have a situation where you chances of getting a spell of is 20%. By applying the book, you now have a 50% chance. It is an increase of 30%
Imagine now instead you have 77% to get a spell of and the using the book gives you a 92% chance. Increase of 15%. But which situation does the book really help you. Yes it is amazing with an increase of 30%, but with 50% chance of loosing concentration, it doesn't look that tempting anymore.

So for me, the book really rocks, when it takes me from these 70-85% up to 90+ where I can rely on getting my spells of, and most important my opponent is left with a horrible probability of dispelling it, if he is using the same amount of dice. He has no book, and no plus one…

I also think that even for spells that did go through, you should still re-roll 1's and two's to get the most out of the book.

However, all this depends on how lucky you feel like being. For my part, I just hate hate hate loosing concentration, because it practically ends my magic phase.

[SpellArcher]

I tend to run my mage in the back with archers

This is the problem IMHO.

He'd do better advancing with a combat unit.