So how do we take on the new dwarves?

[Curu Olannon]

...though all Dwarf weapons are quite vulnerable to return cannonfire with only three Wounds.

This is our saving grace: in an all-comers environment Dwarfs have a huge problem if they take lots of artillery incapable of beating other gunlines. Unless their blocks are vanguarding (in which case it`s hard to get good fire lanes for Organ Guns), they cannot push: as such it is disastrous to lose the gunline war. Let`s assume has has these 2 organ guns as discussed above, a flame cannon for good measure and a cannon: against Empire and losing first turn, the game is pretty much over. All the Empire general has to do is blast apart the cannon and hang back and he will win. Same goes for Chaos Dwarfs, shooty Ogres, Dwarfs with a more balanced approach and even certain Elven bowlines.

Overall I think it`s suicide for Dwarfs to include more than 2 of flame cannons/organ guns. I also don`t think I would ever field them without 2 cannons (not that I play them), because losing this battle against a gunline is terrible. Also, cannons are still S10 D6 wounds which is incredibly powerful. On a sidenote, I consider the same when contemplating CD lists as they have the same essential problem.

[SZUPERhun]

I played against the new dwarf. I had no chance against him. 1 grudge tower, 1 cannon, 1 flame cannon, 3 gyrocopter. 15-20 gunner, 15-20 irondrake, 20 hammerer, 20 longbeard and some characters. I had 2x20 white lion, 14 silverhelm, 10 sister, 1 frost phoenix, BSB, lvl2 and lvl4 mage (heaven and light but rolled wrong spells), 2 fast cavalry unit. I could reach the dwarf line with 10-15 white lion and 5 silverhelm. I didn't charge, tried to save the points so it was 1-19.
If you play against dwarfs just stay at your deployment zone, hide your units and aim for 10-10.

[Curu Olannon]

I played against the new dwarf. I had no chance against him. 1 grudge tower, 1 cannon, 1 flame cannon, 3 gyrocopter. 15-20 gunner, 15-20 irondrake, 20 hammerer, 20 longbeard and some characters. I had 2x20 white lion, 14 silverhelm, 10 sister, 1 frost phoenix, BSB, lvl2 and lvl4 mage (heaven and light but rolled wrong spells), 2 fast cavalry unit. I could reach the dwarf line with 10-15 white lion and 5 silverhelm. I didn't charge, tried to save the points so it was 1-19.
If you play against dwarfs just stay at your deployment zone, hide your units and aim for 10-10.

I beg to differ. Your list has a number of inherent flaws and without a battle report it`s impossible to evaluate how it was played.

[Loriel]

Vanguard dwarves is countered with 70 points shadow warriors syb sequently they allow our vNguard. Of course if i would play Vanguard dwarves i would take rangers

[Stormie]

Next time deploy them blocks in can-can lines!

[Grenic]

Played in a small local tourney yesterday and played two of the new Dwarf lists with my Teclis based Chaffmaster Light Council list (2400 pt this time).

My impressions were that magic is entirely doable against the Dwarfs now. Both times they had effectively dual dispel scrolls, oddly neither seemed to have the spell eating version (maybe they just forgot to roll it). In both games shooting and magic missiles were aces. Both players did have that item (rune or whatever it is) that gave them a 5+ WS against shooting and magic missiles, but against Banishment this was not a big deal.

In both games my spell selections were essentially the same except for Lore of Fire where I used Fireball in the first game and Flame Cage in the second. I would say take Flame Cage over Fireball. I found that with large units having this spell was more useful than Fireball. Also, Flame Cage is a hex not a magic missile!

I did find that death blow rule to be quite disconcerting and I would tend to say a Dwarf Slayer unit (and any other unit that has this rule) may be their best building assault unit(s) to use against our troops garrisoning a building. The effect I experienced was that the slayer unit got double the number of attacks against my White Lions than expected (10 + kills). With their extra hand weapon it becomes (20 + 2 x Kills). To avoid a further assault, I abandon the building.

As for the Gyrocopters, I found that Eagles are better for addressing these models than Reavers. The Gyrocopter’s shooing attack is just too good at eliminating Reavers (scores only one hit on an Eagle and 3+ on Reavers). Also, once in combat the Eagles WS5 S4 attacks makes it hard for the Gyrocopter to win. The Eagles went three for three against the Gyrocopters and 2 for 2 against war machines. So, I would say Great Eagles are an auto include against Dwarfs.

[pk-ng]

As for the Gyrocopters, I found that Eagles are better for addressing these models than Reavers. The Gyrocopter’s shooing attack is just too good at eliminating Reavers (scores only one hit on an Eagle and 3+ on Reavers). Also, once in combat the Eagles WS5 S4 attacks makes it hard for the Gyrocopter to win. The Eagles went three for three against the Gyrocopters and 2 for 2 against war machines. So, I would say Great Eagles are an auto include against Dwarfs.

Looking at profiles the Gyrocopters are actually better than Eagles.
WS4, S4, T5, W3, A2, AS4+
compared to
WS5, S4, T4, W3, A2, No AS

In a dwarf match Reavers are slightly better because they have more bodies while Eagles can be 1 shotted. The Gyrocopters steam gun wound reavers on a 4+ not a 3+.

You got lucky against the Gyrocopters and war machine.

[Prince of Spires]

Looking at profiles the Gyrocopters are actually better than Eagles.

I think the point was more that you need to be lucky to take a wound from a gyro and not that you would beat it outright. WS4, S4, 2A vs WS5, T4 means you are doing half a wound on average per combat phase (not that the eagle does better by the way, it doesn't). So the eagle should be able to keep it tied up for a bit.

What's the points cost of Gyrocopters?

Rod

[Tethlis]

8 archers. 2 more if you upgrade it to Vanguard.

[Grenic]

In a dwarf match Reavers are slightly better because they have more bodies while Eagles can be 1 shotted. The Gyrocopters steam gun wound reavers on a 4+ not a 3+.

You got lucky against the Gyrocopters and war machine.

While I agree that the Great Eagles did better than expected, the point was more that it would be unlikely for a unit of Reavers to arrive in combat against a Gyrocopter at full strength.

The template shooting attack that the Gyrocopter has can usually cover, at worst, 3 models, but usually it will touch all 5 models, which will likely drop two models and forcing a panic test to boot. To me having a 50/50 chance of arriving with a 3 wound Great Eagle to face off against a Gyrocopter is a better option than arriving with a 3 model Reaver unit after having first needing to pass a panic test.

[pk-ng]

In a dwarf match Reavers are slightly better because they have more bodies while Eagles can be 1 shotted. The Gyrocopters steam gun wound reavers on a 4+ not a 3+.

You got lucky against the Gyrocopters and war machine.

While I agree that the Great Eagles did better than expected, the point was more that it would be unlikely for a unit of Reavers to arrive in combat against a Gyrocopter at full strength.

The template shooting attack that the Gyrocopter has can usually cover, at worst, 3 models, but usually it will touch all 5 models, which will likely drop two models and forcing a panic test to boot. To me having a 50/50 chance of arriving with a 3 wound Great Eagle to face off against a Gyrocopter is a better option than arriving with a 3 model Reaver unit after having first needing to pass a panic test.

Disagree. I would definitely say the Great Eagle would be dead before the Reavers. I would rather take the 50/50 chance.

[Curu Olannon]

To be honest I don`t think it matters that much: neither the Reavers nor the Eagle should be taking this fight against Dwarfs in my opinion: there are plenty of other tasks these could fulfil. Furthermore, reavers are core tax whereas eagles are a luxury: the first is mandatory whereas lot of lists skip the eagles these days.

[Bashtrigger]

Aren't gyrocopers like 120pnt anyway? It's not that surprising that they would win against either reavers or eagle. I always just try to shoot them down before they reach my backline (sadly meaning not a lot of opportunities arise). T5 is a bitch, but shoot with enough small arms fire and they'll still drop. I never leave home without at least one unit of archers, if only to bunker my mage in.

I do agree with the general concensus that gyrocopters should be your very first focus, in my first game against the new Dwarfs I ignored them to my own peril and lost over 400 points of models from continueus flaming turn after turn. Even against my Chosen of Tzeentch they managed to flame their points worth of models (though admittedly he was very lucky on his to wound rolls against my T5 in that game, but I was lucky to get the +1T result in the first place)

[Asur Fire]

I've played against a Dwarf player a few times now (mostly in T&T games). This last weekend we played 1v1 & that organ gun just kept destroying things. We played at 1750 & his lack of models had him runing up everything to get to that level. My Shadow Warriors got a lucky 2 Wounds by shooting the first turn, but I realized his geared up Engineer could effectively block them from charging. My Bolt Throwers would have been better off shooting his infantry- they did nothing.

I like the idea of using SH's to assault Dwarf warmachines. I think I may try shielding them with Reavers in front.

I haven't had that many problems fighting their infantry. I think I'll also be switching from High Magic to Beasts.