Brain Storm: Combining High Magic with other lore

[Gondarion]

High Magic has been described as a tool box lore, but in reality it is very useful for specific functions but has clear deficiencies and a few bad matchups. You want to take it for its ability to move your troops, devastate hordes, thwart enemy buffs/hexes and boost ward saves, and much of what it does well is utterly unique among lores. However, it doesn't provide much in the way of boost for units in combat, nor does it have an answer for massed high armour and/or toughness. To me, it is clear that it is best used in concert with other lores. But which ones? And which emphasis? The obvious option is to take a L4 High with Book of Hoeth and combine it with the Loremaster, giving you all the spell types you'll need as well as great defense. Alternately, you can take the Loremaster with the Book and supplement it with a L2 High, which works well because of the +1 to cast. However, a case can be made that dedicating a second mage, even a second archmage, to another lore is an even better option. The two most obvious choices to me are Metal and Shadows. Metal, because massed high armour saves are arguably the element a High Elf must plan for, and because High Magic will struggle to help against monstrous cavalry, steam tanks and any other high armour troops which aren't single characters (and that assumes you roll Arcane Unforging). The spells other than searing doom, plague of rust in particular, can make it so your elite troops don't need buffs when they get into combat, and Drain Magic can then be used to shut down enemy augments. Whenever I see a deficiency of armour on my opponent's side, I know it is a much easier match. Shadows, because the two lores synergize so well. Withering/Hand of Glory to make your archers/sisters incredible, drain magic to remove their buffs, then cast yours. If it is rules legal, you can also use smoke and mirrors to swap High Magic ward boosts between units (you can also do this with a Loremaster). Most of all, Shadows excels at pulling out the victory, whereas High Magic excels at preemption, at setting up the victory, so you have both covered. I'm also a big fan of beasts, especially since I tend to go with combat based armies, and the value of strength bonuses for Elves cannot be overstated. Neither can the value of a spell like Amber Spear or the threat of a 20+ Transformation. For whatever reason, I've tended to have great success against formidable armies with Beasts, it is really a great take all comers lore for Elves. Its not as much about synergy and planning as High or Shadows, but strength is gold against all foes, especially when combined with ASF.

If you use High Magic at all, you have to have a plan for it. The same is said for combining it with other lores. I open the floor: What are good strategies for which lores and casters to combine High Magic with, and to what level one invests in each? What army lists fit these strategies, and how can these strategies be best employed?

[Dragon fire]

I'm running a lvl 2 with Beast. I think the primary weakness for our damage spells is armored troups. Both Curse and Amber spear neglect armor and a spell like wyssians is simply one of the best spells in the game and makes us able to boost our combat potential quite significantly. Lastly I run a BSB noble with reaver bow. And I hope that I at some time will be able to get savage beast him for those juicy S8 shots...

[Velmates]

I have been trying a loremaster shortly after the release of the new book and although I was quite satisfied with him I went back to the classical level 4 Archmage. I liked the new High Magic Lore on paper and wanted to make it work for me. In order to do so, I swapped my Lions with Swordmasters for the cool synergy of Deflect Arrows and SoS. Long story short, I have not really tried many different support casters so I am following this thread with interest.

I am really keen on reading your opinions but as I see it, High Magic will consume many dice because most players will make use of the SoS (which is one of the major reasons why to take it in the first place) and therefore cast as many spells as possible (except when in PG maybe). In a phase with average Wind of Magic it will be hard for my support caster to cast anything at all so I have concentrated on the cheap base spells like Miasma and Iceshard Blizzard. Both are great spells for a level 1 and work in many different situations and have a good synergy with High. They can be cast with 2 dice (or even 1 in the case of Miasma) and can either pull some DD or, if let through, are a nice addition and good to have. Spells like Wyssans or Searing Doom look much better but are very expensive and need 3 dice minimum for a level 1 to cast reliably leaving my SM with a weaker SoS. Sometimes it won't matter but I won't risk it.

As I have said, I would not take my advise for law since I still need to improve my use of High and am still searching for the best way to use my support caster. I hope many people will share their experience. Great idea, Gondarion, btw. Exactly what I have been looking for!

[Gondarion]

I think the question is to what level we invest in High Magic, and to what level we invest in the other lores? I'm tempted to invest a good deal in High so I can boost as many ward saves as possible. However, the other lores are necessary. It also depends on the army composition. Investing heavily in Core foot troops pretty much necessitates Shadows. You can use High to turn units into anvils, but Shadows can turn them into world beaters. An army based around elites who already have good capacities is ideal for High Magic, as their one weakness can be mitigated/removed by the ward save boost, and the extreme anti-horde abilities may inhibit stepping up/steadfast when combat arrives. Cavalry heavy is interesting. I'm keen to try out a dragon+cavalry list with a L2 with High and another with Beasts. Hopefully you can move the dragon with High and boost the rider with beasts.

[Jimmy]

In a stock 2400 point list I really struggle to find the points to include a level 2 along with my level 4 unfortunately. I'd actually be tempted to run high lore again on the level 2 however to see what it's like. I'm a bit of a Soul Quench junkie.

[Ptolemy]

Im running a level 4 high with book and a mounted level 2 on beasts.

My combat blocks are a Helm bus and a unit of Swordmasters.

The beasts mage has a power scroll, which I think is critical and I am finding Scrollhammer boring lately.

The beasts mage is all about current matchup synergy for me.

Savage beasts makes the Bus characters insane.
Flock of doom is excellent against warmachines.
Amber Spear is a spell that can draw a scroll easily and put down a daemon prince
Curse is a great combo to throw at witch elf/cauldron units.
Anything else goes to Wildform which is great on either the bus or the masters.

[Marinero]

Hey Gondarion,

It is difficult to achieve a 100% preparedness for anything you can meet on the table, however, there are some options which can cover you in most cases.

As the biggest trouble for High magic is high armour and no serious combat buffs/debuff, it is best to combine a high magic lvl 4 with either a beast/heavens lvl 2 in order to boost your CC chances or with a metal lvl 2 in order to improve your anti-armour abilities.

Currently, I am going with a loremaster and a lvl 2 with High magic and I am pretty happy with that set up - it works great and gives me something for all situations.

A lvl 4 with high magic and a loremaster, while great on paper, is a huge point sunk, as you will never have enough PD to utilize your investment, and also you will have fewer troops. I see this combo usefull in bigger games only - i.e 3000+ points

[Glorfindain]

Great thread. Very insightful. I have used the same setup as Marinero in my last few games with huge success. Great versitility without digging in to my troop allowance.

[Gondarion]

Hey Marinero,

As the biggest trouble for High magic is high armour and no serious combat buffs/debuff, it is best to combine a high magic lvl 4 with either a beast/heavens lvl 2 in order to boost your CC chances or with a metal lvl 2 in order to improve your anti-armour abilities.

I'm keen to try these setups, although of course getting all 3 signatures with the Loremaster takes care of alot. I think a key when combining a L4 High with a L2 with one of the 8 common lores is what spells other than the signature you're really looking for, how they combine with High Magic and the likelihood of getting the spell(s) you're looking for.

Currently, I am going with a loremaster and a lvl 2 with High magic and I am pretty happy with that set up - it works great and gives me something for all situations.

This is a really good setup. High Magic works very well on a L2 because of the +3 to cast and because much of the lore is designed to support.

A lvl 4 with high magic and a loremaster, while great on paper, is a huge point sunk, as you will never have enough PD to utilize your investment, and also you will have fewer troops. I see this combo usefull in bigger games only - i.e 3000+ points

It is a heavy investment, and its so many spells, when I take the Loremaster I often have trouble keeping track of spells during the magic phase and not spending too much time deciding what to cast and in what order. However, I will say that in the games I've played with this setup it has worked extremely well and I'm not sure it isn't worth any expenditure necessary. I used this combination the first 4 games I played with the current book, and the only time I lost was against another High Elf army, which was a game I had in the bag and I threw away. In this setup, the Loremaster is relegated to a key situational caster, but sometimes that is all you need from him. The L4 High with book was so powerful in the matchups I had that he overmatched a fully kitted out anti-magic Dwarf army with their old book, something almost impossible to do. The combination also devastated Skaven and beat up an (admittedly very soft) Warriors of Chaos list.

[cptcosmic]

high works great with shadow imho. shadow lacks ways to deal direct damage to clear chaff, hurt ethereal units or other stuff and high magic rounds it up nicely. the direct damage spells hurt even more when combined with withering.

[Zihark]

I go for metal it has some use full buffs and augments and can deal with most heavily armored infantry and have high magic to deal with hordes and chaff. I don't go overboard with my equipment and heros I have the following:

lvl 4 archmage, 4+ ward
lvl 2 mage dispel scroll
bsb with a 1+ re rollable save and a lance

although i like princes and nobles i think they are a little costly for there damage output so i just get the essentials and put the rest into my army.