Ogres

[Imperator64]

I have a game tomorrow against ogres. I've never come up against an ironblaster before buy I can't seem to think of any any weaknesses it has. How do fellow generals deal with them?

[Eirik]

Remember one rule that all chariots have: if you charge it on the flank it the monster pulling it can't fight.

Engaging it in melee with armored cav isn't a bad idea. There's a fair chance to simply not receive any wounds and break it with combat res. If you don't, you may still hold it up for a few turns.

It really depends on your list too. If you don't have a lot of attractive cannon targets, you can always just not deal with it. Depends on the enemy list too. If you're playing avoidance against a deathstar then taking out the cannon might not be a huge priority. Kill 2 or 3 units and avoid him the rest of the game. Cannons are good at damaging units, not so great at killing them off. Of course your pheonixes and monster mounted characters have to be careful.

You can deploy units wide. Got 40 white lions? Maybe deploy them 2x20 instead of 4x10 and reform them later when combat is getting closer. 10 dragon princes or silver helms? deploy them 10-wide instead of 5. Never expose a cavalry flank to the cannon, and remember that it can move and shoot when you position your little horsies.

Don't deploy a dragon, eagle character, pheonix and wizard bunker all in a straight line...

[Tethlis]

I have a game tomorrow against ogres. I've never come up against an ironblaster before buy I can't seem to think of any any weaknesses it has. How do fellow generals deal with them?

Well...

What's your usual list and playstyle?

I personally combine the Reaver Bow / Potion of Strength with bolt thrower single shots. It isn't fantastic, but as you say, Ironblasters are hard to take down. If you make an opponent nervous with the bolt throwers, he may target them instead of something more important like a Frost Phoenix.

Another possibility, you can chase it down with a Frost Phoenix and engage it. It will struggle to hurt the Frost Phoenix, and while the Phoenix won't kill it quickly, at least it will keep it busy.

Alternately, a dedicated Cav Bus can run one over pretty quickly. A couple of Strength 7 characters can certainly get the job done efficiently. Even two minimum units of Silver Helms have a good chance of breaking one if they manage to get into the flank or rear, so they're only eating hits from the Ogre and Gnoblar crew. That's definitely not a guarantee though, and watch out for Grapeshot as you get close enough to charge.

Of course, anything's possible with a good Magic Phase as well. Many lores have relatively easy and efficient solutions for at least softening it up, and possibly killing it outright. Metal, Death, Shadow, Heavens, Light are all useful in this capacity.

+++Edit: Ninja'd!+++

[First Strike]

Remember the ogre cannon has a shorter range. Also you can use his units to block or reduce the effectiveness of their shooting as he cannot shoot you if there is a chance of hitting one of his units (so he needs a 20" line where he cannont hit one of his own), only skaven can do this and then it is with slave only.

[Stormie]

Yeah, that last thing is exactly what I did in my last game vs Ogres (see battle report forum), landing my Forstheart Phoenix in front of two Gnoblar units to severely limit the options for cannon shots. Of course, my opponent just Purple Sunned and insta-killed the poor Phoenix anyway, which sucked, but it was a good idea, damnit!

[theviking]

My loremaster is decently accomplished at removing ironblasters. Boosted shems, searing doom, and spirit leech are all good at taking wounds off, any of those followed up by single bolts and with a bit of luck you should be able to pick off an ironblaster in one turn.

[Loriel]

Personally I haven't had too much problem with Ironblaster. It is of course pain in ass and hard to remove, so I usually have pretty much avoided it as much as possible. My advice is to try to get phoenixes to combat as soon as possible.

I know you asked specificly what to do against Ironblaster, but Wall of Texters never leaves a opportunity to write their thoughts down

I would advise against trying to get magic that uses lot of hexes (for example shadow) in case he uses notorious rune maw in big ogre unit... In my experience High Magic, life, light are rather good with them to boost our close combat abilities, since that way his runemaw investment will go to toilet. Purple sun is one of the greatest way to deal big rune maw unit (remember that you get 3 x d6 rolls per ogre from the lore attribute) since they have generally I 2. Personally I find these high damage spells usually game ruiners, and I tend to keep my self focused on tiebreaking type spells

I also have my share of hurt from hellheart scroll. So it is item that forces every enemy mage to take miscast withing d6*5 inch radius, and for every miscast invoked this way he receives one extra DD. All though banner of the world dragon really helps you out with possible miscast damage, he still can pretty much ruin your one magic phase and usually in critical point of game.

if he like to use big unit of ironguts reavers are your best friends. they really can dictate their movement. Even parking right next to the big unit flank to force them either reform or walking directly forward, and positioning your other units for surgical assault. They can still generate lot of attacks to sides and rears, so be aware.

Sabertusk are great models in general, all though they aren't so big of a threat to us, but can still ruin your day as one of the cheapest chaffs in game (was it only 21 points)

as always try not to get charged by ogres, since those impact hits really hurt us. Remember that ogres have movement of 6 and it might really surprise you how long they can charge and move in general. as they can have swiftness banner on irongut unit it might be 7 movement so they are like cavalry in that instance.

My ogre friend doesn't use Manhunters, but I would love scouting heavy hammer a lot (looking sadly to my shadow warriors / tomb king skeleton archer, which I still love). And it seems to me reasonable to have at least small unit of them for flank business.

[Asur1985]

Whats the point vaalue of the iorn blaster? im thinking helms or princes, but i dont want the princes to be held up against a lower point unit, thus the helms may well be an option.

[Jimmy]

It's a steal at the same points of Dragon Princes with full command -5 points.

Lore of Death/Shadow hurts Ogres of all sizes. If you're playing me however I wouldn't bother, I tend to misfire the damn thing within 3 turns.

[John Rainbow]

Something else that should be said is that it is only worth worrying about if you have good targets for it. Generally for HE this is single model units (monsters & maybe chariots) and maybe bolt throwers. If this is not the case they are actually fairly ignorable in the sense that at range they aren't much of a worry - they kill maybe 3 or 4 infantry models per turn whilst you concentrate on other targets.

[Dalamar]

That's when they drive up in close range and unleash S10 grapeshot before charging.

[Jimmy]

Keep in mind however it's a chariot so impact hits can do some damage before the ASF kicks in. A T6 chariot as well to boot.

[Bashtrigger]

Exactly, the thing that takes the Ironblasters to the overpowered regions, is not the fact that it's a hard to kill cannon. It's the fact that it is a hard to kill chariot, that just happens to drag a cannon to boot

So even if you don't have great targets for it, the damn thing will always be a nuisance. (Unless your opponent isn't too bright and completely forgets to abuse it's chariot abilities)

An Eagle or Frost Phoenix in the flank or rear, or spells like boosted shem's, amber spear, pit of shades or purple sun is what I generally use against it. In rare situations a lucky charge with my rank and file, otherwise I ignore it (as best I can). Trying to take it out with my shooting always feels like a waste to me, I use that to clear his chaff and soften his inevitable deathstar.

One fun trick is to try and panic it (if he was stupid enough to place a sabretusk within 6" of it).

[Jimmy]

Exactly, the thing that takes the Ironblasters to the overpowered regions, is not the fact that it's a hard to kill cannon. It's the fact that it is a hard to kill chariot, that just happens to drag a cannon to boot

Overpowered? Hardly. Have you seen Skullcannons?

One fun trick is to try and panic it (if he was stupid enough to place a sabretusk within 6" of it).

I've been guilty of that.

[Bashtrigger]

Exactly, the thing that takes the Ironblasters to the overpowered regions, is not the fact that it's a hard to kill cannon. It's the fact that it is a hard to kill chariot, that just happens to drag a cannon to boot

Overpowered? Hardly. Have you seen Skullcannons?

Yes overpowered, for the same reasons as the Skullcannon, it's just that the skullcannon has even more extra's which just makes it even more overpowered

Though the Skullcannon has more weaknesses too, it can't flee and it always has flaming attacks on the cannon shot, which our fireborn monsters and cavalry love

[Jimmy]

I think the skullcannon hits the nail because it's cheaper.

Ironblasters are horrid when taken in pairs however I believe it's a relative thing to each meta, if people are gearing up for a tournament and taking dual frosties for example then I'm sure they can expect to be staring across the table at a pair of dragon rifles.

[Bashtrigger]

I think the skullcannon hits the nail because it's cheaper.

Ironblasters are horrid when taken in pairs however I believe it's a relative thing to each meta, if people are gearing up for a tournament and taking dual frosties for example then I'm sure they can expect to be staring across the table at a pair of dragon rifles.

Very true. Ever since my friend started to pick up dwarves (at which point I was facing 5 armies total on the 4 friends I play most against, that like to take cannons), I started to build my lists in such a way that I could safely ignore those cannons. As a result, nowadays, I actually tend to see only one cannon per list at most. These days my Ogre friend tends to take only one Ironblaster and an extra group of Mournfang instead.

Folks will always take answers to stuff they're scared to see, in our cannonheavy meta, the monsters disappeared and hence the cannons became rarer. And now suddenly I feel like playing a dragonprince more often again, which will inevitably lead to more cannons and so forth.

Lets face it, cannons are THE answer to some of the more scarier stuff out there (which includes lots of flying monsters, flying daemon princes, lots of mounstrous cavalry etc.). Personally I'm always secretly praying for a cannon like uberboltthrower which causes d6 wounds to add to our HE arsenal. Anyway, can't blame folks for taking as many as they can.

[Rabidnid]

Lets face it, cannons are THE answer to some of the more scarier stuff out there (which includes lots of flying monsters, flying daemon princes, lots of mounstrous cavalry etc.). Personally I'm always secretly praying for a cannon like uberboltthrower which causes d6 wounds to add to our HE arsenal. Anyway, can't blame folks for taking as many as they can.

I'm trying to wean myself of lore of beasts and have this problem. Amber spear is an excellent cure for so many critters and stanks. I just wish trasnsformation was a #6 spell worth the name.

[Bashtrigger]

Lets face it, cannons are THE answer to some of the more scarier stuff out there (which includes lots of flying monsters, flying daemon princes, lots of mounstrous cavalry etc.). Personally I'm always secretly praying for a cannon like uberboltthrower which causes d6 wounds to add to our HE arsenal. Anyway, can't blame folks for taking as many as they can.

I'm trying to wean myself of lore of beasts and have this problem. Amber spear is an excellent cure for so many critters and stanks. I just wish trasnsformation was a #6 spell worth the name.

Well, in my Dark Elves list I actually took a lvl4 with Beast and Transformation once, in conjunction with 4+ ward save and potion of toughness, just because an ASF Mountain Chimera that rerolls 1's to wound is a piece of art, that thing turns any combat into an absolute gorefest

It's a big risk to take, but getting it off on a ASF model is just so freaking awesome, it's just mean that the armies that most benefit from the spell (all elves, dark elves in particular) have the mages you least want to put into combat.

Meanwhile my Ogre Kingdoms friend with his deathstar (Slaughtermaster with Beasts, Butcher and BSB) happily murders anything with it at any time, cuz his Slaughtermaster eats any attacks you can throw at him anyway (with or without Transformation)

[Rabidnid]

Well, in my Dark Elves list I actually took a lvl4 with Beast and Transformation once, in conjunction with 4+ ward save and potion of toughness, just because an ASF Mountain Chimera that rerolls 1's to wound is a piece of art, that thing turns any combat into an absolute gorefest

It's a big risk to take, but getting it off on a ASF model is just so freaking awesome, it's just mean that the armies that most benefit from the spell (all elves, dark elves in particular) have the mages you least want to put into combat.

Its not that so much as to dispell is the non boosted version of the spell (16) and wounds carry over directly, so your character is dead if the Chimera takes 3 wounds and the spell ends. I have gotten off savage beasts and Kadon in the same turn, so 4xD6+4 S-10 poison attacks, its so funny to see what happens to supposedly hard units. Nearly always means a dead archmage though.

[Ferny]

As with any chariot, if you can get a cavalry charge in the flank or rear you can expect to do well enough. This one can only attack back with a gnoblar (ha) and one ogre - expect maybe 1-2 wounds, which unless they were reaver knights, you'll likely save. Meanwhile, you strike first and ought to sneak at least one wound in, plus charge and flank/rear, and possibly banner, gives enough static CR to make ogres flee . And failing that, it's locked in a combat and can't shoot .

[Bashtrigger]

Well, in my Dark Elves list I actually took a lvl4 with Beast and Transformation once, in conjunction with 4+ ward save and potion of toughness, just because an ASF Mountain Chimera that rerolls 1's to wound is a piece of art, that thing turns any combat into an absolute gorefest

It's a big risk to take, but getting it off on a ASF model is just so freaking awesome, it's just mean that the armies that most benefit from the spell (all elves, dark elves in particular) have the mages you least want to put into combat.

Its not that so much as to dispell is the non boosted version of the spell (16) and wounds carry over directly, so your character is dead if the Chimera takes 3 wounds and the spell ends. I have gotten off savage beasts and Kadon in the same turn, so 4xD6+4 S-10 poison attacks, its so funny to see what happens to supposedly hard units. Nearly always means a dead archmage though.

Thats what the potion of toughness is for, but yes, if you don't break them that combat, your mage is likely to die.
Still, to kill a 'big, tough' unit, might still be worth it

Not something for tournaments, but in friendly play, it'll make things quite enjoyable

[Eltherion2]

As mentioned unless taking multi wound troops such as chariots you can pretty much ignore them. Try to keep the Ironblasters out of major combats however.

Eagle in the flank could pin it down for a while.

Depending on how many RBT's you take single shoting it could reduce its wounds.