Loremasters of Hoeth for Tournament Versatility

[Semprus]

I personally hate taking level 2 Wizards. My philosophy is if you're going to take a wizard, make it a level 4 so you know that the spells will get off and to make sure that you can dispel. However, a Loremaster of Hoeth with the Book of Hoeth seems like it could be a better choice for tournaments because of the versatility of having all the signature spells and not wasting a spot in close combat.

What do you guys think?

[Eirik]

When I think of versatility in warhammer, I think of having an answer to everything. Versatility is about what you can handle, not so much what you can do.

In terms of the eight lores, I don't think the signature spells offer too much. You have decent combat buffs (earthblood, wyssans, miasma, blizzard), but nothing amazing. Your anti-lone-character guns aren't great (metal often obsolete because everyone takes 2+ vs flaming, spirit leech is hit and miss against characters which tend to have high Ld and ward saves). You get nothing in terms of raw firepower and anti horde/deathstar spells. A few magic missiles are good for clearing chaff.

Compare to any single lore. With death and 4 dice you can almost certainly take 2 snipers spells, and you can go for good combat buffs or horde/deathstar clearers as you need them. For life you have access to really good buffs and a horde clearer. For Shadow you have amazing buffs and a decent unit clearer.

Anyways, if you use the loremaster, I think most of the versatility has to come from the rest of your list. You need bolt throwers for those monsters and lone-character threats. You need really good combat units, because you're not winning anything with your buffs alone. You might want some magic attacks to deal with ethereals, because a melee character won't be able to cast his magic missiles all game.

[nick larking]

lvl4 is still superior for tournaments cause of the big spells and it also has an advantage dispelling.
LM is only better in low point games (1500 and below), hes still viable but I still believe regular lvl4 archmage is better.

[Sackree]

The only caster I took to the last tournament I went to was a Loremaster with no scroll and came 4th with the list. The only reason I didn't podium is because on the last spell of the tournament he decided to jump down the hole. This lost me a battle point and a place oh well, it's a game of dice and it happens

While none of his spells seem that great in a vaccum there was never a phase where he didn't have something incredibly useful up his sleave.
I think with the book and his trickle casting approach he plays a lot more subtly compared to a Level 4 who just chucks 6 dice at the 6th spell. One spell wont change the game, but he has enough spells to help where needed

[wamphyri101]

ive won 2 x 2 day 40 player tournaments with a loremaster. They are just as good as a lvl4 if played right

[Nagashias]

I've been toying with Lvl 4 Lore of High Magic, BoH, 5+ Ward as well as Loremaster, Dispel Scroll (or d6 extra power dice if allowed), Merwyrm Shield, Atrazar, +1 Strenght Magic Weapon.

Then a Reaver BSB with minimal gear, running with 6 Shadow Warriors.

Lvl 4 + Loremaster goes into a Swordmaster unit with Banner of World Dragon.

It's a deathstar though. But having access to buffs, a somewhat fighty lord (at least he can survive!) as well as 4+ or 3+ Ward save, is ALOT!.

Alternatively drop the Merwyrm shield for 2+ armour save, as he will get Ward save from High mage lore attribute anyway.

Goal: Mass spam low cast spells. 3 spells from High Mage per turn (3 dice), leaving averagely 4 dice for two more spells per turn. If opponent dont dispel first 3 spells, you just throw all 4-6 dice at a high cost spell (if 5+ dice, cast 6th in High Magic).

[Eirik]

Doesn't high lore attribute stack with Merwyrm? I think parry is a ward save (as opposed to regen which is 'instead of ward save').

[Ferny]

I'm not sure if it stacks, but I wouldn't count on the 3+ parry because you've still got to get the spell off and not have it dispelled and even then it'd only be for the first round of combat...

[Sackree]

I'm not sure if it stacks, but I wouldn't count on the 3+ parry because you've still got to get the spell off and not have it dispelled and even then it'd only be for the first round of combat...

It definately stacks, a parry save is a type of ward save so benefits from shield of saphery.

[Eirik]

I really think that shadow is the most versatile lore. You have an initiative pit (though not as good as sun), and tons of combat buffs that are good in every matchup. You don't have anything for dealing with flying chars or monsters (unless they're pitable), but you can always try toughness debuffs and shooting. Most of my lists take at least 3 bolt throwers for such targets anyways.

[jonnyp]

The Loremaster is the only wizard I've played with and he hasn't disappointed. For me he brings everything I need to the table and more. While he doesn't have the big spells he can reliability get off the spells matter and still have a dice or two to throw into a spirit leech.

For me at least he has no spells that your opponent "has" to stop like pit of shades or mind razor. And that his his real strength. For instance I want to get of wildform on my PG (making them stupid good ), naturally my opponent knows this...but in trying to stop that he let's his unit get hexed by both isb and miasma...or vice versa. The Loremaster gives you the power to get what you want regardless leaving your opponent with no good options.

On top of all that he's a beast in cc. With either the sword of might or anti heroes he can really hold his own. and on a personal note it always amuses me when my wizard beats down my opponents general.

[Samriel]

A Loremaster trumps the Archmage clearly in terms or versatility, but loses out on raw power.

Yes, the Loremaster doesn't have the spells to deal with hordes, deathstars and nasty characters... directly. You will not make the enemy horde disappear in a turn by six-dicing that one nuke spell, but a Miasma and an Iceshard later the enemy deathstar is hitting you on 6s, and has to make Ld checks at -1. Sure, nuke spells ignore ward saves to kills those troublesome enemy characters, but a concentrated effort with Metal, Death and some shooting will do it as well, and you don't need to risk losing your key character in order to do so. I would compare the two like this:

Loremaster
+ Extremely versatile spell list, you will ALWAYS have something to cast and have something that needs to be dispelled.
+ Low risk of miscasts and getting sucked into the warp -> reliable caster.
+ As long as he's not fighting Demon Princes, he can be anywhere on the battlefield, even if it means in combat.
+ Good even when winds of magic are weak. -> once more a reliable caster.
- No direct anti-horde, anti-deathstar spells -> no spells that win games by themselves.
- No no-ward spells.
- Expensive compared to Archmage.
- Needs BoH to compete casting/dispelling with level 4s.

Archmage
+ Has access to more powerful spells - can decide the game in one turn with that one spell.
+ Casts and dispels better, especially with Book of Hoeth.
+ Costs less than the Loremaster.
+ Doesn't need BoH to compete, and can provide other utility with different items.
- Doesn't want to be anywhere near combat usually -> placement and movement requires careful planning.
- Depending on lore he can lose a lot of usefulness when winds of magic are weak.
- Higher risk of getting sucked into the warp due to more dice used for nuke spells.
- Effectiveness of spell list varies largely depending on opponents army.

With the Loremaster your enemy always has a dilemma as to which spell is really the key and needs to be dispelled, while with the Archmage usually the dispel priorities are very clear. The Loremaster slowly turns the game in your favor by putting small stones on the balance, while the Archmage drops the rock. Both have their pros and cons, and both should be used keeping those in mind. You should give the Loremaster a go - I believe he's a character that one needs to get a good "feel" of before one can exploit all his possibilities, because his playstyle is so different to how wizards have been played until now.

In my personal experience, I have never felt the Loremaster lacking variety and power (with BoH), although access to the big nuke spells would be more than welcome. However, there are many ways to work around the lack of those spells once you accept that you will not eliminate the threat by throwing a lot of dice at it. On the other hand, with the Archmage access to the nukes is always a good thing, but there are always those games where I really wish I had taken another lore, and I have a tough time building up pressure in the Magic phase. Not to mention that I have to be extremely careful that some stray chaff doesn't kill my ~300pts investement...

[jamierk]

Having just taken a loremaster with the book to CanCon, I can absolutely vouch for his potency in almost any high elf list. The book certainly helps with the level 2 to level 4 issue, but what i really loved was the ability to almost guarantee the effect you need in your magic phase, be it damage or buff/debuff. The magic missile threats are awesome, and spirit leach is a nice little bonus to have for that early game where you need to take out etherials, redirectors, war machines or big monsters. Or probably more effective is the combination of melkoths, iceshards (which i rate as the best spell i can cast with high elves) and wyssans is almost unstoppable. You only really need 1 of those three spells to swing an important combat, you can basically cast all three reliably with only 5 dice and it makes even small dice phases even better for you than big dice ones at the right time. I didn't miss having a level 4, even with the dispel phase, you just have to be more choosy with your dispelling. I can't imagine how tough it would be playing against a book loremaster, you'd have to make some tough decisions every magic phase. Do i let spirit leach through knowing if i use dice on it his swordsmasters will have wyssans? Or should i stop boosted shems when his phoenix guard might have -1 to hit them in the big combat? Ouch!

[Eirik]

While these are all highly debatable points, I still think that a L4 Shadow Mage is more versatile than a Loremaster in terms of how many roles she covers for your army. I don't think that the signature spells of every lore combined cover more ground than the lore of shadows (you basically get some low powered magic missiles and some low powered buffs). I think shadow covers most of what you need other than magic missiles, and I think most HE armies can easily make up for that in other parts of their list.

I'd be interested to know which one people think is more versatile, a level 4 wizard of (pick whichever lore you think is most versatile), or a loremaster?
Worth starting a poll for?

[Jimmy]

It's certainly a valid choice in tournament built lists and can't be instantly dismissed. As Jamie pointed out he ran one recently at CanCon and Swordmaster has been running one for a while now with success.

[jamierk]

I disagree about the shadow mage offering more versatility and probably even more about the magic missiles and buffs being low powered.

Re: magic missiles: The magic missiles are very powerful in most circumstances. Fireball is damaging to almost any army as there will always be either a target which can't handle moderate amounts of s4 hits wounding on 4s or 5s, or a war machine/monster which you can chip wounds off on 6s at long range. Only needs to be a 6 or 2 for it be a useful spell. More importantly shems is amazing. 1 dice to add another d6 s4, or boost it up to scare the crap out of t5-t6 monsters. It literally won me a game against vamps at Cancon as it dealt big damage to etherials (2d6 against undead is amazing!). And finish it off with a spirit leech on a leadership 9 character. I spirit leeched a hell-blaster cannon in a terrible spot for me against empire, gave me big board control and cleared a big threat to my swords, all for a 2-3 dice spell. I wouldn't want to play against a high elf player with these 3 spells as they can cast all 3 with moderate dice and i can't really let any of them off. And that is without mentioning the elephant in the room, Searing doom. I'll admit i don't use this as often as i would think, and the boosted version is high casting value for only 2d6 hits, but that odd game it really saves you big time. I killed 6 demis in a game at Cancon with it, and deleted a difficult unit of silverhelms in another game which helped greatly in opening up the board. Some games it has no targets of course, but you have it when you need it. Nurgle demon prince forgot his flaming protection? You're all good.

Re: buffs: i mix and match the order, but i would usually throw out the one i want him to dispel first. Usually melkoths for WS or BS. In the combats i care about, this usually means you are hitting my troops on 5s, or your combat characters goes from 3's to 4's and mine from 4's to 3's. Opponents don't like the sound of that, so it usually draws dispel dice. Then you have wyssans which i guarantee NO opponent wants off on my phoenix guard/swordsmasters. Even caradryan on ashtari benefits greatly from that, especially with the -1s from frosty. And if they have any dice left to stop that, then you finish off with 2 dice iceshards. This is for me my favourite spell in the game. Usually means all my important stuff is hit on 5's, and throw in -1 leadership to boot! With those three spells you can virtually guarantee your combat goes the right way, without needing to roll more than 3 dice at a spell, no big risk of miscast, and on a big phase you'll even have a few dice left to spirit leech something just because you can.

I agree that shadow is a great lore, and works well if you build a list around it, but i really can't see many armies which can't benefit from a loremaster support. You're only issue you face is that fact he's a level 2. I faced a named character from Empire with Loremaster Metal and +6 to cast (oh dear lord) and that was a tough game. But the loremaster actually got me out of that game, when i spirit leeched the hellblaster he panicked off the Empire character (skillz!).

Thats only a sample of my experience from the 8 game CanCon but i can attest that at no time did i feel like i had an inadequate magic phase, in fact i looked forward to each and every magic phase as i knew i was controlling the game with it. Low dice, or high dice are equally good too, can't say that with shadow. Even 3 dice is enough. Something i forgot to mention is lore attributes. Earthblood is a viable casting choice to put a wound back on something important for only 2 dice. And i've had all sorts of fun using the shadow bait and switch attribute with challenges to get him out of trouble or put my combat character into a challenge/combat i want him in. 18" is a long way!

I should say, i run a different kit than SM as well. The book is fantastic of course and I couldn't pass it up (wasn't too bad on swedish either), and this time i ran shield of myrwyrm and a very cheap sword (biting blade i think), purely to get under the 600 points for lords cap. I've also had alot of success with glittering scales with him, as it makes him almost impossible to hit, especially in my PG unit with iceshards support. No one even bothers trying to direct attacks onto him i've found. SM runs an earthing rod, as i think he's had some terrible luck having him miscast off at the wrong time. I really had good luck with my miscasts so far so i'm not going that way for the moment. I can imagine a powerstone being a really good item for him as you can just choose that critical moment where you need dice and go for it. I got myself into trouble once by not having a genuine ward save when the ogre player i played had both Sniper maneaters (which i killed to a man with a 3d6 fireball thankfully) and worse, a feedback scroll (which i got very lucky and did no wounds), but other than that the 4++ parry did the job too.

Sorry about the wall of text, i just thought i could provide some more examples of where the Loremaster really excels. I welcome a good debate about the guy as initially i had the same trepidation about bringing a level 2 as your lord caster, and not being able to take a shadow mage.

Enjoy

Jamie

[jonnyp]

Since you said pretty much everything I was about too I'm not going to bother writing another text wall =).

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Greetings!

I have used Loremaster for quite a time since the release of the new book and I was never disappointed. What is more, I decided to leave the precious book at home to see if I can make it work without it.

It seems natural to compare his abilities as a spell caster to that of level 4. However, I think it is not justified. We are spoiled for choice now. Both characters are good but simply different. hence, if you ask which one is better you also need to ask for what and for whom.

Both characters have their places and good role to play in various armies. They might work differently in certain set ups too. So a loremester/archmage in one army will have different role to play in another. I think it is very important to keep that in mind. You may pick your character first and build the rest of the army around him or build an army and pick the best character for it. And for you. Because it is also important what kind of player you are and what is your style.

Because of that I will refrain from making such authoritarian statements as "Loremaster without the book is not competitive" or "Shadow Archmage is better". I don't agree with them and I believe they don't frame the bigger picture either. What is more, I would like to know if players who make such statements have the experience with characters they write about. I simply want to know if they form their opinion based on real game experience or on their theoretical estimation.

I have experience with level 4 high magic (old book), level 4 metal (old and new book) and loremaster (obviously, new book). As I have mentioned I wanted to use him without the book. I can tell you now he is good enough to work very well against level 4's. Both in casting and dispelling. If you want details, please check my reports.

As Jamierk nicely said, he is well equipped for any occasion. And it is not only versatility in magic phase that I like about him. It is also about his ability to stay with combat dedicated unit and join the fight. You don't need to babysit him that much, although he is still fragile in comparison to tanked up prince. But Loremaster is your Swiss army knife. That is why I like him in my Swiss army knife list.

In the last tournament I placed him in a Lion cube with Standard of Discipline. He gave ld10 bubble, already a win in my book. Then he was in second rank, giving me a choice to keep him safe or make way if I wanted to. They were very good in combat together. then he could pick the right spell for the job.

And that is the beauty of that character. He does not often use the brute force, although I don't mind using many dice to cast that 3d6 fireball or powered up Burning Gaze or 2d6 Searing Doom if needed. But he does not rely on 6-dicing Dwellers, Purple Sun or Mindrazor to win the game. He is not quite there to win them by himself but his aid is excellent. There is fantastic redundancy in his spell selection, as he has a few of them that have similar effect. He can cast spells when the winds of magic are low and when they are strong.

My only problem is to make the right decision and I sometimes made the wrong one. But it was not a fault of the Loremaster that I dispelled the wrong spell or didn't cast the one I needed the most.

This wall of text comes to the simple conclusion, probably not surprising. Loremaster is a great choice with or without the book if the players knows for what, how and where to use him. He is not better than other Lord level characters, just unique and different.

Cheers!

[Samriel]

I'd be interested to know which one people think is more versatile, a level 4 wizard of (pick whichever lore you think is most versatile), or a loremaster?Worth starting a poll for?

Personally I find the Loremaster more versatile (as in "can cope with a variety of different unforeseeable threats better", not universally stronger) than a L4 Shadow Archmage. Lore of Shadow, while being a great lore (probably the most versatile of all the BRB lores for HE), varies in effectiveness based on your opponent, what spells you rolled, and how strong the winds of magic are. The Loremaster always has the same variety of spells, can work well with weak and strong winds of magic, and his wide spell selection allows him to put pressure in equal measure on any opponent.

Both characters have their places and good role to play in various armies. They might work differently in certain set ups too. So a loremaster/archmage in one army will have different role to play in another. I think it is very important to keep that in mind. You may pick your character first and build the rest of the army around him or build an army and pick the best character for it.

I strongly agree with this, even though I would add that in my experience the Loremaster fits the role of the "Swiss knife" more often than the Archmage when considering all-comers lists, but it certainly does depend a lot on one's army concept.

What is more, I would like to know if players who make such statements have the experience with characters they write about. I simply want to know if they form their opinion based on real game experience or on their theoretical estimation.

I believe I have sufficient experience concerning the following:

7th Ed Book
Archmage Death
Archmage Life
Archmage High
Mage High

8th Ed Book
Loremaster (only with BoH though)
Archmage Shadow
Archmage Life

Hope than means anything.

[Eirik]

Hmm, consensus seems pretty general then.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

What is more, I would like to know if players who make such statements have the experience with characters they write about. I simply want to know if they form their opinion based on real game experience or on their theoretical estimation.

That sounds a bit patronizing (although it is probably not intended to do so) ...

Why does it?

[Samriel]

Deleted post as it had really nothing to do with the topic and was not meant to be a personal attack.

[Stormie]

Ehh I don’t see anything wrong with what Swordmaster was saying. It’s just a lot of the time when you’re discussing how competitive something is, a lot of people comment on it without having actually tried it. Now, I’m a scientist, and working by theory is great, but practical experience and being able to combine the overall context is even better. We all know that +4 > +2 in terms of casting, for example. But is +4 significantly better when it’s on a wizard who has to roll his spells and is more restricted in where he can be on the battlefield, so the enemy can work out what spellcasting attempts are coming? Is +4 such a big thing if every magic phase you’re chucking 2 dice at low-level spells followed by 6-dicing the big one each time? The only way to work that out is to go out and try them both.

I’ve used the Loremaster a lot and I think they are an excellent caster, although not outright as powerful as an Archmage. As they are also more expensive I think you need to really nail down the build you want to get the most out of him: if you plan on never fighting, you should have an Archmage instead. If you’re planning on having the wizard join your key elite unit in the most important fights on the battlefield, then you don’t want to be giving up the attacks of a White Lion or Swordmaster for 1 measly Str 3 instead, so the Loremaster wins out there.

Versatility is also truly important. Level 4 Shadow, High, Life etc. are all excellent, but will they help when yet another unit of 1+ save monstrous cavalry is bearing down on you? Okay, they won’t give you a turn 1 win that a fortunate Dwellers might, but who wants a game decided on turn 1 anyway?

[Samriel]

Ehh I don’t see anything wrong with what Swordmaster was saying.

I agree, and apologize for taking the thread off topic. Back to the debate!

@Swordmaster

When playing the Loremaster without the BoH, what do you find are the biggest merits and demerits? How does ex/inclusion of the BoH with him impact your list construction and gameplay decision? I'm still a bit scared of leaving the Book at home, as I really like how he works with it (meaning I like one-dicing spells a lot).

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

@ Samriel

My purpose is and always has been to share observations based on my experience. This and only this. I didn't mean to patronize or claim I know better. I was genuinely interested in others experience as I know that people play in different environments and what works for me does not have to work for them

To answer your question.

I chose Earthing Rod as an Arcane Item as I lost my Loremaster too many times due to unfortunate cascade when casting spells with 2-3 dice. I decided I'd rather have him without the book and keep him alive more often.

Also, despite the fact the Book is a very good item I wanted to see if I can make him work without "must-have" item. My experience tells me he can, even if he is obviously not that efficient.

I didn't build my list around the characters. I included only two of them as I prefer to have more units. Their equipment is only partially based on the army list itself. My principle is to have multi-tasking characters. That is why I thought a fighting wizard would be a good choice for my army.

P.S. I edited the post in order to make it more in line with the topic and to avoid further derails. Apologies to the OP for that.

[Stormie]

I guess it's also worth considering if you play Swedish comp then a level 4 Archmage will cost you 36+ comp points, then another 30+ points if you have the Book of Hoeth. The Loremaster on the other hand will only cost you 22 points (25 with Earthing Rod and 42 with Book). I'm not sure how that directly translates to results in tournaments using the comp, but I guess it's an overall difference of about 4 points to use the ER Loremaster instead of Book AM...

[Gondarion]

I initially balked at giving the Loremaster the Book of Hoeth, because it seemed like you're missing out on the stellar defense one gets from a L4 with the book. This is true, but the offensive benefit really can be worth it. I've come to really like a L4 with scroll or forbidden rod alongside a Loremaster with the book, you effectively get two L4's for dispelling and you've got a stellar offensive phase. It is true that the Loremaster lacks anti-horde mass-killing, but that is where High Magic comes in. Even a L2 with High Magic can make up for this where necessary.

[Eirik]

Interesting idea with the lion cube containing a loremaster in the 2nd rank Sword, though it does suffer from the Brettonian weakness of a miscast removing the entire unit from the board (put it on the side I guess...)

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

@ Eirik

That's true! But then that is also the reason why I have Earthing Rod as even in wider formation and Loremaster in the corner a big template tends to remove almost entire unit anyway.

I didn't quite plan for such thing but after adding champions to the units and having full commands I had no other choice. However, it is interesting option to have.

Cheers!

[jamierk]

I suppose that lion cube would be an excellent place to put a botwd?