Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

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GMALERON
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Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#1 Post by GMALERON »

Hello everyone just a question I wanted to voice about probably my favorite of all our special choices the Swordmasters. Now any smart opponent knows that these guys need to die or else their units will be blended into tiny pieces before their eyes. When I first started HE's I used to run them in big units, however every game they were always shot, magicked or blown to pieces before ever seeing combat.

Then came the time I played Wood Elves which though frustrating at times showed me how effective the MSU format could be. On my return to High Elves I began to run my swordmasters in units of x7 with no command (besides a musician or a bladelord to test it out) and right away I started having better success. They die as always but being that they are so small they are usually ignored by shooting and magic and having multiple units of them so some will get into combat and chop stuff up before dying.

A very effective tactic I have found is running them in the "speed bump" format. I have for example three units of x7 lined up behind each other. Enemy unit engages first one, suffers lots of casualties, kills the swordmasters and overruns into the unit behind them. Wash rinse repeat. This has worked wonders vs armies such as WoC, Ogres and other tough horde units.

Now the purpose of this thread (and I do apologize if its a repeat I didnt see any recent ones on the matter) is to ask is this the only way to effectively run Swordmasters? If anyone has any other tactica or experiences id love to hear about them, thanks for reading guys! :D
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#2 Post by JudgeSmails »

I am still in the learning phase myself and don't consider myself a tactica expert by a long shot. That being said, I found that when I ran them in 7, they were targeted and easily panicked or shot down. So I started running them 7x2 with a banner of swiftness to help them get to cover or into action. The unit costs me 243 points, but I think they get their points worth. I hate wasting the extra attack I am paying for in the second rank, but I still think it is a solid way to run them. Especially since I hate Dragon Princes.

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Look forward to seeing some of the tactica gurus reply.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#3 Post by SpellArcher »

Short answer is no IMHO.

Certainly 7's can work well, as you're proving. But also...

10's work well in an MSU list. They pack a lot of power into a 5-strong frontage (16 Swordmaster attacks are no joke) and are well-suited to combo charging wider enemy units with your other stuff. They remain a bit fragile but MSU lists tend to have lots of units, so losing them is not a disaster.

14's maximise attacks against 5-wide 20mm. This unit can pack some serious punch with 22 attacks and is big enough to justify adding magic items. It can afford to lose the back rank to shooting/magic or close combat attacks and still remain potent. In my experience this unit works well in a 'Combined Arms' list that might well have Lions, DP's and other combat units too. It helps if you have multiple threats in the army to distract enemy shooting. They also benefit from your having at least one defensive spell (such as Shield of Saphery) in your repertoire. The enemy might dispel it but then they are eating your more destructive magics so this is unusual.

21's are popular where the enemy has enough shooting to take a rank or so off before combat but not enough to just wipe out the unit. Once you get to this strength the army is tending towards a heavy infantry list though it is possible to combine it with a Dragon or other tactical elements. Protective magic starts to become almost mandatory.

30 delivers a whole lot of pain but is subject to the same considerations as the 21. On the plus side you are always likely to have at least some troops left. The problem with it is that White Lions seem to be better suited to this size because it maximises their S6 attacks and they are more resilient. Lose such a unit and you may well be losing the game.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#4 Post by finreir »

5s 6s 7s
generally 5s for me as they are back up eagles then
either way is good large blocks of swordmasters is a points vacuum that in certain games you will find deleted
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#5 Post by lordoftheshadows »

I love 7-14 strong units. I have found them very useful against high strength/mindrazored troops. 21 ASF attacks almost destroy everything in their path but anything that survives tends to kill off all of the sword masters. I think that running more then 14 SM is to big a point sink to be on the field with all of the template weapons and s4 shooting.
I include a unit of 10 sm with the ToL. I have used them to take out lords, heroes, mages and for combo charges against death stars. I find them great because s5 hurts them just as much as s10 and they can be used as a sacrificial unit to kill off large hordes of infantry.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#6 Post by srpelicano »

I've had great success running mine in a line of 7 and using them in tandem with White Lions. White lions take the charge, are lined up to nicely set the charger up for a flank charge, then Swordmasters in for the killing blow. I'm too afraid to go many more just because it becomes a huge magnet. 7 can sometimes keep people's attention else where.

I've also used them as the charge taker and the amount of kills they've produced usually swings the combat more in my favor so they'll be holding on Inspiring Presence and the BSB. White Lions or dragon princes clean up what the Swordmasters haven't murdered.

Granted, what has been said about smaller units being shot to pieces and targeted by magic, but I always get a kick out of my opponents face when the couple of Swordmasters make it into combat and start slaughtering their infantry.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

For size 14 round 2 can be really important.

Obviously you'll do lots of damage round one. If you have some way of reducing damage back like a spell buff or Standard of Balance you can preserve that front rank. Round 2 is then usually terminal for the opponent. As said, if you charged you get 2 rounds before enemy Mindrazor kicks in and by then it's too late.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#8 Post by Irishranger »

This is ulthuan.net, course there's more than one way.
I've done reasonable well in running them in units of 20+ ten wide. The trick is to have enough units that if they kill the SM the rest of your army will eat them. I recently ran a life AM with cloak in the the sm along with 27 lions and 40 spears both also in horde. With 2 shadow mages in a bunker at the back my opponent didnt know what to focus chipped a bit off everything and then died turn 3. They work well in killing elite infantry, lions kill cav and spears kill cheap models like gobbos or slaves. If you've all three and a reliable magic phase then they work really well, however if you've no other infantry then they will be focused by the opponents anti-infantry. Like the 40k players say 1 is none, 2 is one, 3+ is win and that applies to elite infantry just as much as cav and monsters.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#9 Post by finreir »

i do apologise if i seemed negative before, theese guys can be broken good say vs orcs or empire or skaven
and broken bad vs over half the lists out there
that is why I use them small only to minimise risk
if you wan tto run 16s or 21s with are the 2 other common kinda size blocks go ahead thye will win games single handedly
then again they can nearly lose games single handedly I find the other 2 specials dont have this problem thats really my only point )
good players dont let sm blocks make combat with anything worth hitting, unless you have a list that auto deletes all chaff and warmachines.
The other major problem with them is they just dont cut it against monstrous cav blocks and I find they auto break where as the lions kill them and the phoenix guard hold them steadfast a swordmaster dies the same to mournfang as an empire spearman (food for thought) :D
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#10 Post by Hortennse »

16 (8 wide, 2 ranks) is the biggest I would ever go. 8 wide means every model gets attacks against a 5-wide unit of 25mm base enemies, and the second rank maxes out attacks possible. With a champion this unit grants 25 reroll-to-hit strength 5 attacks. Swordmasters are at there best when there is nothing to hit them back, the more attacks you can muster the more chance this will happen.

Anything bigger than this is catapult bait, and I cant invest more in these guys when I might run into 50+ dark elf crossbowmen who will mow them down.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#11 Post by SpellArcher »

If you go really big with SM's then I agree you are polarizing your match-ups.

As part of a more balanced list though they are a tool like any other. Sometimes they'll murder stuff and you'll lose the game. Sometimes they'll die horribly and you'll win. Whether they make the right combat simply depends on who plays best. An opponent can chaff them up but that makes life easier for your other units.

Plus they are epic against Daemons.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#12 Post by finreir »

SpellArcher wrote:
Plus they are epic against Daemons.
and other elves (without to much shootign), sorry i was distracted during my last responce couldnt focus on my words to well so didnt accurately finish the post #-o
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#13 Post by SpellArcher »

I think Ok vs WE so long as it's not the bowline. Against others you can use cover and with Amulet of Light (which I like for all-comers) they can deal with Treekin. Dark Elves more difficult they have so many threats. Not played vs HE's in ages but again probably good so long as it's not a bowline IMHO.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#14 Post by Wicksi »

Pretty sure most people are going to disagree with me but personally I find them best in a unit of 10*3 with musician. the unit costs 456points and will shred through ANYTHING it faces unless its severely put down by magic/fire before that. but even then if you manage to land 12swordmasters (wich means 18died on the way wich is quite alot) its still a solid combat unit. You sure as hell dont want to be reckless with them when they are only 12or less left as you will loose 456points if they die but they can still fight very good.


And for someone to reduce your number of swordmasters to that ammount have to put in some decent ammount of dedication to kill so many wich means the rest of you army will go unschated more or less, this also makes that you can have other juicy units on the field with less risk of them dying from enemy fire Lion chariot / Star Dragon for example.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#15 Post by cptcosmic »

14 is my preferred size. they are not too large thus dont cost that much and dont attract that much attention usually but they still hit very hard and work perfectly to clear 5 wide rank and file units that my other units cant take on that well.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#16 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

The short answer is: no. :)

The longer one is: that depends. If your army list is designed in the way that Swordmasters seem to be the most dangerous (or even the only) threat, then you should of course expect that the enemy will focus his efforts o destroying them. If, however, the number of threats is greater and other units will be more dangerous in the eyes of your enemy, then you Swordmasters have better chance to live longer.

How to achieve that depends on the player. MSU is only one possibility.

On the personal note I am a little sad to see these 7 strong units used as suicidal squads. Kind of ironic to see the most skilled warriors on Ulthuan (fluffwise and from the point of view of WS value), who practice their skills for centuries, to be used in suicidal missions. But I am of course heavily biased :)

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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#17 Post by SpellArcher »

The Swordmasters appearing dangerous can also work in your favour. I had a game recently where my opponent shot them up, ignoring a unit of tooled-up DP's which then ran straight through his army.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#18 Post by Paricidas »

If you run them big (30+) you are likely to lose the game if you lose the unit. Therefor its imho important to tailor the whole list around them. You will probably want some of the following :

life magic to buff them to toughness 5 or 7:
The downside of this is that it can easily dispelled, therefor you will probably want a third dangerous spell (not only throne of vines and flesh to stone). Dwellers is too hard to cast reliable, so you are better off with the sig-spell(+5 ward). That leads to the conclusion that you have to use folaritahs robe to protect the mage.

magic restistance:
a char with the cloak of 2+ magic resistance will help. Probably should be a noble, because you are already losing attacks from the folariaths mage in the first rank and 3 str6 attacks dont hurt (you).

anti-shooting
every enemy will know whats going on and will throw everything and the kitchen sink against the swordmasters. High toughness will help them, but if you dont get first turn, then its getting close, therfor use the item that gives +1 for the first turn. In turn 1 and 2, you can also screen the unit and give it hard cover with other units (best for this: cavalery).

anti-redirection:
An enemy worth his salt will redirect the swordmasters all day long and kill the rest of the army in the meantime. Therefor I would recommend to take heavy anti-redirection tools with you. Magic is probably out of question, but if you can fit in a lvl1 or 2, he should probably go with fire. The fireball ring sounds nice on paper, but normaly you will not have enough powerdice because babysitting the swordmasters will be so PD-intensive. As usual, archers and RBTs are quite usefull for taking down the enemy chaff.

In general, I dont think the SM-horde is a reliable and viable concept as it is so dependend on magic to get off devensive buffs. A bad power-dice roll and a dispell scroll may leave the SM units with their pants down, t3, As 5+, nothing else. If that happens, the whole enemy army will concentrate all its power on the SM and than its game over.
Additionaly, there are things, mainly spells, that you simply cannot protect a unit from. If the enmy army has real killer spells, the oppsing mage will simply 6-dice them as long as they get through, and dwellers, the 13th or infernal gateway can really put a whole even in a big SM unit.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#19 Post by Shadow star »

I would recomend running 2 units of them. Then again, I love sword masters.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#20 Post by Elithmar »

Swordmaster, it is sad. :) However, maybe some of these people are on a mission to exterminate all the sword masters! :lol: You start to think that, the way people use them. ;)

I'm using 14 or 16 at the moment, at 1.5k-2.5k. With flesh to stone and other threats like a chariot and my helm bus, they don't take too many wounds. They're very effective though, even if a whole rank has gone. It also makes them a proper unit of infantry, not just killy redirectors. :)
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#21 Post by Prince of Spires »

I normally use them 14 strong (@2500 pts) and find that they tend to live long enough to chop stuff up.

The thing is though that you need to have enough other threats on the table for your opponent not to worry too much about the SM. @14, they are still a relatively minor unit that can fall in the category "to be dealt with later". Of course, after I put down the 14 SM I usually also put down 2 chariots, 5 DP, an eagle BSB and a dragon. Those tend to take up the attention more so then just 14 SM.

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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#22 Post by Lord Anathir »

You really have to look at the context of your list and the role you want the unit to play. I think there are few situations where swordmasters make more sense over white lions. WL have shooting protection and stubborn and against many opponents wl and sm will do the same number of casualties.

Currently I'm running 11 swordmasters, and for the most part they do their job ok. A big part of why they're in the list is because the rest of the army has so much shooting and magic that I can afford to hide the smasters for long parts of the game. 11 is a great number to guard a flank against certain units, and enough to wipe out depleted enemy units. That said, I can't think of a single instance in any of my games where white lions would've done a worse job. Against all the 5+ save toughness 3 armies I have fought (where SM really shine over lions) I have won the game pre-combat.

I haven't fought a HE mirror match with the list yet. Swordmasters out perform white lions in that matchup due to the WS6 and 2 attacks.

I'd say in 90% of lists WL make a better straight swap.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#23 Post by finreir »

Lord Anathir wrote:You really have to look at the context of your list and the role you want the unit to play. I think there are few situations where swordmasters make more sense over white lions. WL have shooting protection and stubborn and against many opponents wl and sm will do the same number of casualties.

Currently I'm running 11 swordmasters, and for the most part they do their job ok. A big part of why they're in the list is because the rest of the army has so much shooting and magic that I can afford to hide the smasters for long parts of the game. 11 is a great number to guard a flank against certain units, and enough to wipe out depleted enemy units. That said, I can't think of a single instance in any of my games where white lions would've done a worse job. Against all the 5+ save toughness 3 armies I have fought (where SM really shine over lions) I have won the game pre-combat.

I haven't fought a HE mirror match with the list yet. Swordmasters out perform white lions in that matchup due to the WS6 and 2 attacks.

I'd say in 90% of lists WL make a better straight swap.
msu is the only place where swordmasters make sense for all the above reasons.
swordmasters only asset over lions is the 2 attacks tbh adn if you go big then that advantage is diminished
lastly yes they are very very bent in the mirror match up assunign the other guy doesnt have shooting :D
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#24 Post by SpellArcher »

At size 14 I believe Swordmasters fight better than Lions. The loss of second rank models hurts them less. Even if you don't have lots of shooting you don't have to run them at the enemy if you have enough other threats in the army.

Bigger I'd be tempted to go with Lions. But you can often take both and they can complement each other.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#25 Post by Prince of Spires »

finreir wrote: msu is the only place where swordmasters make sense for all the above reasons.
swordmasters only asset over lions is the 2 attacks tbh adn if you go big then that advantage is diminished
Depends on how you look at it a bit I feel. 14 SM have the same amount of attacks as a WL horde when going against 5 wide (which is still the most common width I find). But you only pay half the points. You swap out ws6 for s6, so against certain matchups you are more or less efficient.

This is also part of the reason why I feel that SM shouldn't go bigger then 14. After the initial 14, they suffer from diminishing returns.

On the other hand, people bring 21 WL, to have some spare bodies. But those last 7 WL do as much as 7 extra SM would do. Less, since the extra rank probably matters less to WL because of stubborn.

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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#26 Post by finreir »

SpellArcher wrote:At size 14 I believe Swordmasters fight better than Lions. The loss of second rank models hurts them less. Even if you don't have lots of shooting you don't have to run them at the enemy if you have enough other threats in the army.

Bigger I'd be tempted to go with Lions. But you can often take both and they can complement each other.
14 are useable i agree which i guess is MMU neither msu nor horde hammer

however the logic you use is slightly confusing the swordmasters are far more likely to lose the second rank due to shooting and this makes them a viable target for a lot of armies as a cheap way to pick up a chunk of vps.
sms have good match ups but really the ws6 thing rarely comes into play against the armies with ws5, they then will be targtted out the game anyway with shooting or magic.
Swordmasters dont fight the meta of MI or MC and support cav units well at all the stubborn is key with lions also the s6 is massive against the armour and the toughness 4-5 we are seeing. Both will take bucket loads of casualties back and frankly swordmasters are mainly only good vs infantry the can just sometimes hold small monstrous cav units if his dice are diabolical bad.

Sms can work mmu they must do, i still use them myself sometimes but i dont think they are optimum, optimum is just using the attacks stat they have and making sure templates cant rinse them by going for 5-7, accepting you may lose 75vps if 5 are fireballed off and not really caring.

Its nice to see people see them differently and Im now tempted to roll a load of them to some tournie somewhere (just not sure where) :D
um could technically have 83 of them at 2,5k :twisted:
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#27 Post by SpellArcher »

finreir wrote:however the logic you use is slightly confusing the swordmasters are far more likely to lose the second rank due to shooting and this makes them a viable target for a lot of armies as a cheap way to pick up a chunk of vps.
Not in my experience Ian.

The way it tends to go is that either the enemy has plenty of shooting and deliberately targets the Swordmasters or he only has a little and tends to shoot my chaff etc.. In the first case if you give up those VP's easily you have done something wrong IMHO. Against BS shooting (eg elves) you can often hide the Swordmasters in terrain and if necessary cast a cheap buff like Shield on them. The enemy then has to either dispel the buff (thus eating a spell like Flames) and focus a lot of fire to kill them or avoid the threat zone in front of them and deal with the prospect of them coming out to play mid-late game. The alternative is to run them straight at the enemy. He'll kill them but you hurt him with your other units while he's doing so. Good deployment is important here.
finreir wrote:sms have good match ups but really the ws6 thing rarely comes into play against the armies with ws5, they then will be targtted out the game anyway with shooting or magic.
I guess my primary experience here is with Daemons but as these are a top-tier army and the threat of 'letter hordes is very real I think it's relevant. The thing is a unit of 14 Swordmasters with Standard of Balance is almost as good as a 'letter horde with Herald. Daemon players tend not to realise this and go for the combat. Even if they do, they tend not to take Flamers since the nerf and at only +2 to cast their magic is containable. It only takes a few casualties from elf shooting/magic to swing this the other way. Having a unit that can do this is very handy.

Mine have done OK against MI but I've not faced much MC yet. Not played since 'crushers, it's not that long since Demis. Playing in a couple of weeks but using WE's! I suspect you're right Ian because the armour saves could be a serious issue. SM's are optimised vs infantry and the meta seems to be turning against these and in favour of MC. Seredain will have more experience here but he doesn't have time to post much these days. I probably won't have much chance to test my SM's vs MC 'til the new book and that'll turn everything upside down anyway.
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Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#28 Post by finreir »

SpellArcher wrote: I guess my primary experience here is with Daemons but as these are a top-tier army and the threat of 'letter hordes is very real I think it's relevant. The thing is a unit of 14 Swordmasters with Standard of Balance is almost as good as a 'letter horde with Herald. Daemon players tend not to realise this and go for the combat. Even if they do, they tend not to take Flamers since the nerf and at only +2 to cast their magic is containable. It only takes a few casualties from elf shooting/magic to swing this the other way. Having a unit that can do this is very handy.
hell bloodletters are a great match up for swordmasters i know what they can do but the difference with letters is they are far more versatile, what the swordmaster does he does exceptionally however he does only one thing and thats his big problem. He gets ranged by everything if an opponent has a duty free brain cell and the sm has zero protection against this, couple with that they just get run over by monstrous cav etc and im not convinced by them.

Tell you what i'll run a load of the mage guards of hoeth in my next tournament list and ill send full battle reports on the tournament, then ill let you know if i am wrong but at the moment i just see 16 of them costing 40 empire halberds and struggle to see past that tbh but i will try hard as they are obviously a popular unit. No one ever said swordmasters were s£$t just that they have many bad match ups but as bs shooting is now less on the english scene I guess I at least owe them another try :D
Ian Sturgess playing high elves and wood elves since 1990 ish
Twitter @chaffmaster1
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#29 Post by SpellArcher »

There are two contrasting options here I think. The first is to take several units like in Pash's list and rely on redundancy to get at least one unit into the enemy's soft parts.

The second is to take one unit of SM's as part of a varied list. There will be enemy units and even whole armies where they are not great. But you take other units that are effective vs those. Then you will have stellar match-ups where the SM's take more of the load from the other units.

An army like this needs a magic phase that can put pressure on the enemy early doors so that cheap buffs (like Shield) get through and help keep the SM's going. This is where Banner of Sorcery really shines, you just don't get phases where nothing happens.

I look forward to your crushing victories with them Ian!

:)
GrottoKnight
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:52 am

Re: Swordmaster Tactica: MSU the only way?

#30 Post by GrottoKnight »

Let me tell you why I like SMs: (because I own 100 of them)

They are a nasty good gamble! They hit like a train but get crushed like a bug! They get more from a buff than other units because of their attacks.

When running against CORE 5x5s my personal #'s say that 6x2 is enough to get the job done cheaply kinda like the Consumer Reports of the SMs. Then you can fit two or three units of 6x2 very easily into any list.

I like to gamble though so I think 7x2 is awesome for much of the same above but the GAMBLER in me gets a thrill when I get a buff on a 7wide unit and these fellas can rip through any unit....+1S and +1T is just awesome. The wider you go the more impact any spell buff has for the unit.

Once you get into larger games them I see going up to 7x3 as the magic gamble is more likely to pay off and have greater impact.....but getting many 7x2 units to constantly wave over the enemy (picture the front line elves in LOTR when fighting Sauron) can be just as overwhelming just may be too slow at crushing army portions in larger games where quick pushes into enemy lines are needed or you get diced up right after.

I like my lead units to have a musician at least so that if they run they get back to it but the follow up unit ,if not another army choice, I give a Champion and Banner (it is more killy so no ties for music). I do not use any magic weapons/banners. Keep them cheap. Let their badass'ness guide you.

Do what is most fun! Conservative and effective is 6x2, efficient gamble is 7x2, and all out gamble is 8x2 or 7x3.

7x2 and 7x3 is what I made all my trays for.
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