2x 8th Edition Battle Reps and Thoughts

[Lord Anathir]

Alright so I played my first two games today.

Game 1: vs Woodies 2250

Prince, VoD, AoC, Gw, DA, talisman of loec
bsb, gw, da, world dragon
lvl2, annulian crystal, light
24 spears, sb, m, flaming
24 spears, sb, m
15 spears, m
18 white lions, fc, amulet of light
18 white lions, fc
12 swordmasters, m
6 dragon princes
eagle

lvl 4 on unicorn, life
lvl 2, athel loren
bsb
waywatcher hero
10 glade guard, sb, m
10 glade guard, sb, m
9 glade guard scouts, sb
9 glade guard scouts, sb
6 treekin
5 waywatchers
5 waywatchers
2 eagles

Rundown:
I had both lion units in the middle, the baby spears between them keeping my mage. Prince in one lion unit, bsb in the other. both units of big spears to their right and the unit of dp. the swordmasters and eagle on their left. things were 1 inch apart so theres lots of space on my flank.

the unit of lions with prince engaged the treekin and they really smoked me. I rolled poorly for the lions, but it wasnt the unit with magical attacks so i struggled a bit. I got them down to 3 before i lost the unit, but the prince held on and didnt die or break until the other unit of lions slammed into the flank and beat them down. That was the main fight. In our turns we cast our buffs and debuffs. Truth be told I did a decent job of stopping his magic phase. Annulian crystal is a great item and the sole lvl2 with it provides decent defense and not bad offense. I did lose him to a miscast and low roll and he took a bunch of spears with him.

the dp took some casualties but 3 of them beat up a unit of glade guard. 1 unit of big spears got the other unit, and the second killed a unit of scouts and his waywatcher hero that wer hiding in a building. Remember ASF grant rerolls even if the opponent has the same I as you.

the swordmasters lost some models to shooting but with the help of the eagle and the second unit of white lions they manage to trap 2 of the 3 scouting units he deployed in the open on my swordmaster flank.

So thats basically it, I won the game but I lost a bucket of models in the process.



2nd Game: vs Trolls of Chaos 2500


Prince, VoD, AoC, Gw, DA, talisman of loec
bsb, gw, da, world dragon
lvl2, annulian crystal, shadow
20 spears, sb, m, flaming
20 spears, sb, m
10 archers
10 archers
24 white lions, fc, amulet of light, +1 movement banner
24 white lions, fc, skeinsliver
2 tiranoc chariots
3 eagles
1 rbt

Lvl 4
Lvl 2 (both death)
bsb (likely unbreakable banner)
19 trolls
2 shrines
2x30 khorne mauraders
12 chaos warriors

Trolls middle, shrines beside them, mauraders beside them, warriors bunkering heros.

I had a plan. I figured I'd get the flaming spears with my heros into the trolls and a unit of white lions as well and I'd bash a great number of trolls. Then he rolls boxcars on one of the shrines and all of a sudden trolls have a normal 4+ ward save, so I was seriously screwed.

Anyways I put both white lions into the trolls at the same time and they were all killed (both units) in 2 turns, only bringing down a measly 5 trolls.

Shrines have thunderstomp, which is strange.

So that was that, and it gave me lots to think about.
----------------------
Thoughts:

Skirmishers
Are rather interesting. They can march and shoot now, so catching them with infantry is difficult. I wished I had some speed or shooting to deal with them. They have no place in the middle of a battle because they will get murdered by ranked infantry, but it is apparent to me that you cant just fill up your entire army with infantry. They need some support. I'm not entirely sure of which units yet. I still find it hard to justify buying 10 helms or dp and being unable to negate ranks when you lose 1 or 2 of them (thats including after combat). The answer is shooting, which is what I put into my list for the second game and I'll talk more about that later.

Ogre-sized Monsters
I forgot what they're officially called but I'm referring to ogres, trolls, treekin and anything similar on those bases. These units are now brutal in ranks, especially when buffed. They really clean up our ranked infantry especially when they have an extra rank like 3x3. Its lots of points but you cant really reliably stop it especially if they're buffed or have some sort of protection. Stomp is also extra damage that hurts our units. Totally uneccessary inclusion by the writers they were aleady strong enough. By the way our eagles have 1 stomp each

Our Elite Infantry
I've already discarded swordmasters as our main elite infantry. They dont survive shooting, and received less of a boost from the second rank attacks then white lions did (and they dont have stubborn, which is consideraby better when you use your general's leadership). My original choice are white lions as the main battle line unit but I'm not so sure now and I think PG make a strong case. st 4 + rerolls + 4+ ward vs st6 + stubborn? Im pretty sure GW won't give our great weapons rerolls. White lions will still have a place in the list, but maybe one block instead of 2+. The reason I'm looking at PG is that it is apparent even with a lot of hitting power theres always going to be some super unit that will have return attacks. would they beat a super unit like that unit of trolls? No, not without magic, but nothing we have of the same frontage can. So for big blocks its WL or PG, I'll have to wait until the errata. It looks like it will be a mix of both blocks. You can't run too many in one unit because they become vulnerable to unit removing spells like gateway or the uber spells that are all over the place.

Do swordmasters have a place? Not as a block I think, but maybe have a place as little suicide units that you can throw at units you need to soften up a bit. I'm not sure that will the best use of our precious special points allowance.

Psychology
BSB and General radius provide your centre units with very reliable leadership. Ld10 from a prince is nice but necessary, ld9 is fine too. Its no longer overpowered. Fear is no longer broken, but I have to experience terror. It can't be so bad with the rerolls on important stuff. Lion standard and balance no longer mandatory, but balance may make a return to deal with the super units.

World Dragon
This is my bsb setup. I dont think I'll touch it. BSB + mage + bunker. It will be so important. Even with maximum armor we can give him the bsb wont survive any kind of meaningful combat, and he must be near your main infantry blocks. With anti character lore of death spam being popular at the moment and all the mega spells running around this will for sure be of use. For bunker I used the unit of 15 spears, until I miscast and blew a bunch up and an eagle killed the remainder. I think I'll change to about 15 PG. It will be a shame to waste special points on it but it appears its essential, even just to survive the 2x rocket battery, mortar and cannon barrage empire players are setting up.

Shooting
Very unimpressed with our shooting. With all the terrain (4+d6) running around and all the big units our non template shooting really struggles. Big infantry units are hardly affected. I included it in my second game to possibly deal with scouts/fast cav but I think I'll get rid of all the archers and rbt and invest in some LSG, that can hold flanks reasonably well and move into combat when possible. I'll try them out as flank guarders and see how they work.

Lvl 4 vs Prince
A lvl 4 is in my eyes, now essential. You just need the magic to deal with uber units and buff your own units. Ld 10 is nice, but really the prince cant offer too much in combat without becoming squishy and easy to kill for stepping up attacks and other heros to kill. I'm not decided on lvl4 lore. I like shadow, light and life right now. I'm liking life right now mostly because its big support spells are not RIP but are either instant or for a whole turn. In terms of items he will need staff of immune to first miscast. Book of ashur has been named a few times but its just a meagre +1 to cast/dispel, a very small return when you're rolling for a casting value of 18 or so. Its a good item, but not worth 70 points. I'd like to have silver wand or seer on the lvl4 but I suppose it can be bypassed. If you roll a double when rolling for spell you can pick what spell you want. So chances are you'll get the ones you want.


A new army list tomorrow when I have some time.

[Aethyr]

We obviously differ in opinion, as im in firm belief we WILL get the Rerolls for Great Weapons, but irregardless of that - we will know for certain within the next 9 or so days.
I can understand a 'more Boots on the Ground' but in terms of shooting, as you said its not going to be a game changing aspect in the form of S3, and thats where I prefer to drop those spears + archers and run LSG or spears and LSG, otherwise those extra boots that are Archers who have very little impact, and turned into a spear wielding unit that can shoot and possibly win some combats or at the very least show some more support and pressure on the front line.

That battle between the trolls and yourself sounded very unlucky indeed, especially with the 4+ ward, and obviously the luck of your dice for hitting seeing that you lost 48 elves for a meager 5 trolls - you did not elaborate, was it lacking the hits on target, or was his Ward what was causing the grief more. If it was the former, if we do get rerolls it obviously would have gone another way.

Everything else i more or less agree.
Thanks for the input, was a good read. Look forward to your next list/report.

[Musashi]

Having SMs in blocks has always been asking for trouble; I'd say it would depend on which faction and opponent you're facing, as you should be able to close against one with little shooting, with little missile damage.

[Tirrith]

Thanks for the report.

I have had 2 games against Chaos Warriors, they are really tough in this edition!

From these 2 games, Swordmasters failed twice. Got beaten to a pulp versus a unit of 15 Warriors with Halberds. Was a close fight, Warriors had 2 models left and Swordmasters were wiped out. Second game a single Chaos chariot charged through a forest and killed 6 of them. Broke them and ran them down. I reckon the Swordmasters will struggle even more against shooty armies.

My thoughts so far:

Phoenix guard are a must have, I play 20 with full command.
I am leaning towards White Lions over Swordmasters now.

I agree that we can't just have infantry and I have been trying 2 Lion Chariots over Princes. Reason being, I take a level 4 with Life. He buffs up the units and can heal the chariots with every successful spell casting.

Our Cavalry will struggle because of strength 3 after the first turn (Charged a large unit of Marauders, won by heaps but they were stubborn) after that I was in trouble. In contrast Chaos Knights were just eating up my Spears etc...

Cheers.

[SpellArcher]

Very interesting thoughts guys.

Our Cavalry will struggle because of strength 3 after the first turn (Charged a large unit of Marauders, won by heaps but they were stubborn) after that I was in trouble.

I still find it hard to justify buying 10 helms or dp and being unable to negate ranks when you lose 1 or 2 of them (thats including after combat).

I suspect Rob Lane would run 14 Helms + character! I feel with DP's a unit of 5 or 6 with re-rolls is still going to be very useful, it just won't take out a solid block from the flank unless you've got your own block in the front too.

World Dragon
This is my bsb setup. I dont think I'll touch it. BSB + mage + bunker

The new magic certainly looks scary. TBH I'm a bit suspicious now of putting two characters in the same unit. I'm angling towards keeping my BSB in one block but just moving him out if the enemy shoots it to pieces. At least he isn't shooting the fast stuff.

Given that we struggle to deal with the big blocks, are Eagles not important to divert them now?

[Musashi]

Unless they're frenzied, why would they divert?

[SpellArcher]

If you leave the Eagle at an angle and take the charge, does he not have to align to it?

[Lord Anathir]

exactly. IE, you put the eagle so he cant pass by without going 1 inch away from it so has to charge. Then you flee or hold depending on the situation. The max distance infantry can move in a failed charge is 6.

[SpellArcher]

Do the new rules let you reform and still move?

It says a lot for how good eagles were under 7th that they can still be useful in 8th, despite the nerfs.

[Lord Anathir]

ld check to reform and then move (not march) after. Remember the reform cant bring you within 1 inch of friend or foe.

[Tirrith]

Remember you need a muso for the fast reform.

[Lord Anathir]

You know LSG are good on paper but they really arent that hot. Between moving, and all the damn terrain and long range and everything I get like 2 or 3 wounds a turn from 44.

[Aethyr]

I know what your saying LA - but its that Archers do more or less the same thing - except offer nothing to the main battle line, where as at least LSG can come up and hold the line and offer meaningful support for the rest of the troops - at least, in theory.

Unlike yourself, I havnt played any 8th battles yet, so im yet to know how well that works, but thats the theory im running with, ill give it a go and after a few games report my own findings!

So, have you had many games since? You were saying you had different list you were going to try out?

Looking forward to more.

[Tirrith]

I'm with LA on this.

Combat seemed to be happening quite quickly and the LSG have been getting into combat before their bows actually did anything.

I like 2 units of spears and 1 of archers, just to help in getting rid of fast cavalry etc...

[Lord Anathir]

I've played 2 more games. Against warriors and woodies, with the same results basically.

The WoC guy basically subbed the troll super unit for a chosen super unit. It was crazy. 28 chosen and 4 characters, +1 ward save from tzeentch and 4+ from warshrine. Thats 3+ ward. couldnt touch the unit at all. After the game we spent quite a bit talking about high elves and found a pretty good magic combo to deal with these crazy units. Book of hoeth with life, and shadow seer lvl2 with 0 and 2 spell. Lvl 2 casts the -d3 strength on the unit and then I use the lore of life 6 spell (st test or die) would be pretty devastating, even if the lvl2 fialed to get his spell off.

Against the woodie player I changed my list to:
lvl4 hoeth
lvl2 seer
bsb w.dragon
10 PG, sorcery/skeinsliver
2x22 LSG, FC, flaming
2x5 DP
6 helms, m
4 eagles
14 lions, FC, amulet of light

2xlvl4, beasts and life
treeman
4x10 achers
2x5 treekin
7 scouts
5 wild riders
2 eagles

I killed his lore of life lvl4 with the life 6 spell first turn. I got lions into treekin who even with amulet get murdered (althought I needed an 8 on 3 dice to get off the -d3 st debuff and he had no dd and I failed).
One unit of DP got an 18 inch charge on a unit of archers with bsb and killed them. LSG took lots of shooting/magic and even against piddly wood elves I killed like 3 archers in 3 turns from shooting. There is an obscene number of terrain now, and with all the units getting firing pathways is crazy. And also with the new random charges and 24 inch bows they have like 1 turn before they got to reform. So, ugh. I'm not saying archers are better. but at least if I buy 20 spears and 10 archers for close to the cost of 20 LSG, I can have the spears move around and support every turn, and have the archers at the back firing. But overall the power of projectile missiles is definitely down. Sorcery, flaming banner, skeinsliver, amulet of light are worthy items in my opinion.

So at this stage all I really have down pat are the characters:
Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Life
Lvl 2, Seer, Shadow
Noble, BSB, DA, GW, Banner of the World Dragon

thats a solid setup although I'm having mobility issues getting them out of harms way, into required ranges.

[Foxbat]

...LSG took lots of shooting/magic and even against piddly wood elves I killed like 3 archers in 3 turns from shooting. There is an obscene number of terrain now, and with all the units getting firing pathways is crazy. And also with the new random charges and 24 inch bows they have like 1 turn before they got to reform. So, ugh. I'm not saying archers are better. but at least if I buy 20 spears and 10 archers for close to the cost of 20 LSG, I can have the spears move around and support every turn, and have the archers at the back firing...

This has been my main concern about LSG that their bows make them a defensive unit more than an offensive one, especially as they lose the Volley special rule when shooting on a turn that they moved. I’m leaning toward 35 Spears with FC and Banner of Arcane Protection + two units of 12 Archers at 2250. It’s slightly cheaper than the 2 x 22 LSG with FC and flaming banner. I think this set-up would give me a more capable combat unit and two effective support missile units.

So at this stage all I really have down pat are the characters:
Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Life
Lvl 2, Seer, Shadow
Noble, BSB, DA, GW, Banner of the World Dragon

thats a solid setup although I'm having mobility issues getting them out of harms way, into required ranges.

I’m in the same boat on character set-up.

Apart from getting magic ranges and bus units right, I am also wondering how the BoWD affects Cupped Hands, being it’s a magic item it should be viewed as a spell and should not allow the Lm to transfer the “miscast” to a mage in a unit protected by it. Obviously a secondary issue is how the BoWD impacts “Becalming Contagion” as it should also be viewed as a “spell” (recall that that GW already FAQ'd "Burning Alignment" as being a spell). If both turn out to be true, then clearly the BoWD totting BSB needs to accompany your big mage.

[Musashi]

The ideal solution for your dilemna would be to take a unit of each and stagger them.

[Lord Anathir]

I played with this army today:

Lvl 4, Life, Book of Hoeth, steed 378
Lvl 2, Shadow, Seer, steed 177
Noble, BSB, lance, shield DA, Banner of World Dragon, barded steed 198
20 Spears, FC, flaming 215
20 Spears, FC 205
20 Spears, FC 205
5 PG, sb, c, skeinsliver, sorcery 174
5 Eagles 250
9 helms, musician, full armor 214
5 DP, m 160
5 DP, m 160
5 DP, m 160

It was solid, we didnt finish the game but I was in very good shape against a woodelf list. Dragon princes are still great, and with eagles and PG for deploy drops you can make an effective blitz up one side with spears coming up to support. The helms housed the mages and bsb, I think 9 is enough to survive shooting, considering you get armor saves against stone throwers. I have access to regrowth from lore of life too. The helm bunker is much more mobile. To be honest even with the new LOS rules you can still put these characters in infantry as long as your opponent doesnt have cannons/stone throwers.

Magic phase was beastly. First turn I -d3 strengthed an archer unit + his lvl4 and sent the entire unit to the bottom with the life spell 6. No wards save against that. Str test or die. In subsequent turns it was great for buffing/debuffing where I needed. I take shadow 0 and 2 on the seer, and they are fantastic. the 0 spell is particularly great, -d3 ws, bs, i or m for 5+. I can 1 or 2 dice it and along with the -d3 strength it gives great tactical options to turn fights in your favour.

Eagles were great. Cheap deploy drops, stopping treekin from charging and so on. 2 of them ganged up on 5 waywatchers and with the new stomp attack made short work of them. Also very good for stopping units fleeing, especially with the new order of charging and fleeing.

The spears didnt see combat mostly because the DP didnt need them to clear out dryads/scouts/etc, but they'd defintetly be useful against blocks of infantry. I dont ever intend to go up aganst the rocksolid blocks with knights and spears, I'm more relying on the dp movement to avoid them and magic nuking. Spears go clear out forests that DP would take damage from.

[Lord Anathir]

So some tweaks:

dropped 1 spearblock for 2x10 archers (just to have some shooting)
helms dropped for PG (so I have something to tie up monsters)
heros can go on foot and chill with spears and then archers.

Lvl 4, Life, Book of Hoeth, 360
Lvl 2, Shadow, Seer, 165
Noble, BSB, GW, DA, Banner of World Dragon, 184
20 Spears, FC, flaming 215
20 Spears, FC 205
10 Archers, m 115
10 Archers, m 115
20 PG, sb, c, skeinsliver, sorcery 405
5 Eagles 250
5 DP, m 160
5 DP, m 160
5 DP, m 160

2494

[Foxbat]

5 GEs? Are you using alternative comp rules?

[Giladis]

A way to wining with HE in this new edition will be to minimize the frontage of units while maintaining good hitting power.

I am currently using this.

Prince @ 269
Bow of the Seafarer, Guardian Phoenix, Mask of the Merlord
Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Shield

Archmage @ 265 - High
Annulian Crystal

Noble @ 166*
BSB, Reaver Bow, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour

Mage @ 120 - Beast
Dispel Scroll

2x20 Spearmen FC 205/205 (5x4)
2x10 Archers 110/110
5 Shadow Warriors 80*
2 RBT 200
2 GE 100
24 Swordmasters FC 415 (5x5)
Talisman of Light, Banner of Eternal Flame

T: 2245
M: 101

I had a draw against Dwarfs and Beastmen.

On wednesday I will face the dreaded Khorne Marauder Horde and see how that goes.

[Lord Anathir]

5 GEs? Are you using alternative comp rules?

I think a few people have confirmed high elves will have the elite army special rule.

[Bolt Thrower]

recall that that GW already FAQ'd "Burning Alignment" as being a spell

Where is this? I've only read it FAQ'd as magical attacks. My lizardmen opponent and I have interpreted that as not being a spell and therefore world dragon would not be effective.

[Lathaon]

A way to wining with HE in this new edition will be to minimize the frontage of units while maintaining good hitting power.

Why? Surely we need a bigger frontage to get more attacks, since we need to kill as much as possible to break steadfast?

[Foxbat]

recall that that GW already FAQ'd "Burning Alignment" as being a spell

Where is this? I've only read it FAQ'd as magical attacks. My lizardmen opponent and I have interpreted that as not being a spell and therefore world dragon would not be effective.

Refer to the answer to the third question on the left column of page 2 of the Lz FAQ (Link: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... ly2009.pdf)

[Lord Anathir]

I can't agree. Burning alignment and miscast damage from cupped hands are not spell effects. They are small things in the end.

[Foxbat]

I can't agree. Burning alignment and miscast damage from cupped hands are not spell effects. They are small things in the end.

GW has already clearly said that BA is a spell, so I think that ship has already sailed. As for Cupped Hands as it's a magic item used in the magic phase it too must be a spell with the effect being you accept their miscast. Don't forget the BoWD protects against all effects of spells whatever their source.

[Lord Anathir]

Its not a spell if its not from a lore of magic. Magical attacks or effects are not spells. I guess you could make a case for it though but I can't be bothered. No judge would agree with me and I'd lose sportsmanship poins for arguing. Unless you actually have a quote that say 'BA is a spell' then alright, but no way can cupped hands be considered one. Heck, miscast damage isnt even magical.

[SpellArcher]

I'm with Foxbat on Burning Alignment but there are guys who argue it the other way.

Not with Cupped Hands though, it's not a spell effect for me.

[DwarfBoy]

If its a spell, then what is its casting value? All spells can be dispelled, so what do you need to roll to dispell burning alignement? Can you use a scroll?

Point made.