Observations and unit performance from recent 8th ed 3k game

[Ptolemy]

Just finished up a 3k game with my HE against a Night Gobbo horde. Thought I would share some thoughts on performance of the units I fielded and things I noticed about 8th ed.

Set up and overall observations
We played straight out of the book. We rolled 7 terrain pieces that were each randomly generated. We ended up with two mysterious forests, a mysterious river, a building, a hill w/temple of skulls, a marsh and a section of fence. Rolled Scenario was Dawn Attack

The presence of dangerous terrain has a dual effect. First, contrary to popular thought, battlelines are not necessarily joined quickly. From reading the rules, it seems that all unit types can avoid making dangerous terrain checks as long as they only walk through terrain. Any other type of movement (charging, marching, persuing, fleeing, etc) causes dangerous terrain checks. This resulted in our game of some units moving slowly while others were really moving fast. Easy to let infantry get too far afield in this addition.

Dawn Attack deployment rules are difficult to plan for, which IMO is good. It would force people to take a list that can adapt on the fly.

My list

Lords

Prince on foot with GW, AoC, VoD and ToL - Placed in a unit of PG. Killed everything he came across. With the rumored re-rolls to attack even with GW, he never missed once in the whole game. He killed three goblin warbosses singlehandedly.

Archmage, level 4, Book of Ashur - Lore of Life. A total beast. Once throne of Vines was off, he just started doing whatever he wanted with impunity. The lack of redundant dispel scrolls makes high level casting easy to get off. He killed 26 models in a 50 gobbo unit with Dwellers Below in one cast. He gave +4 T to a unit of LSG that had been flanked charged. T 7 elves don't lose combats.

Heroes

Noble BsB – DP kit, SoM, HoF – Did little to nothing. Putting him with a 5 man unit of DPs just made him an easy to hit shooting target. Warmachines demolished the unit and since Look Out Sir rules require at least 5 RnF models, he was picked off by a direct shot from a rock lobber. Must have a bigger cavalry unit or must go on foot.

2x Mage Level 2 (seerstaff on one, annulian on the other) Annulian crystal is a great choice. I can make a low average dice roll for the enemy magic phase into a phase without any meaningful spells. From a casting perspective, there were not enough dice to go around, even with the Banner of Sorcery.

Core
2x 26 Lothern Sea Guard – The allstars of the battle. Volley fire is incredibly useful. Stand and shoot reactions make them difficult to charge. If they get even 1 buff spell on them, they can win almost any combat. Considering the number of easy to cast buff spells available (and our access to any lore) I can’t see any other core as a better choice. A single unit took down a giant, 2 units of spider riders and six trolls and only lost about 10 models all game.

24 Phoenix Guard – Given the new Armor Piercing banner. They never miss and as always are hard to kill. However, simple massed fire will eventually drag them down and they are a prime target for someone to carry around the generic Tricksy Trinket which denies ward saves to a unit. They carved through two horde units of goblins. Supported by the killing power of the Prince, they performed well. However, they will need hammer support to break truly big units.

5x Dragon Princes – Putting the BSB here was a mistake. It drew a giant bullseye on the unit. With the accuracy of warmachines, the unit won’t last long. If the Banner of Ellyrion is FAQd to give us the Strider ability, it will be a must for this unit. Benefiting from the cover of woods will be critical. More reliable than ever for delivering a massive punch, but we have to protect them long enough to get them there.

1x Lion Chariot – Ran into a fanatic and blew up. Hard to say how it would have done.

2x Eagles – Very underwhelming. March blocking is almost pointless. They are still our most cost efficient warmachine hunter though, a job that will have to get done pronto. Warmachines, not even standard shooting, will be the biggest HE problem. One eagle died from a fanatic. The other managed to kill a bolt thrower.

2x RBT – Performed as expected. I focused on taking out smaller units as opposed to whittling down the hordes. Probably a mistake. However, my opponent Vanguard moved 4 units right into my face. I had to shoot them or lose the bolt throwers.

Overall, my impressions are that magical buffs are going to be critical for our army. In this particular game, my army lacked punch. Magic can turn these units into hammers at any time, but you have to commit the dice to the job. Taking our super hammer (Star Dragon Lord) was a thought, but I can’t see how to protect him from warmachines besides the #2 Lore of Light spell which forces enemy warmachines to roll a 4+ before they can fire. TLOS doesn’t offer any protection against any warmachine that doesn’t rely on BS to hit. If that cannon crew can see only a fraction of you dragon’s ass, there is nothing the dragon gains in terms of protection.

[HERO]

What was your opponent's list like?

Your battle report looks quite one-sided

[Lord Anathir]

where did you put your mages. everything else looks good and lore of life looks great, but im not convinced it trumps shadow.

[Ptolemy]

My opponent was an all Goblin list.
two 50 model hordes of night goblins
30 model horde of night gobbos with bows
Three chariots with a various mix of characters
Six trolls
A 15 model unit of wolf riders
Two pump wagons
4 bolt throwers
goblin doom diver
rock lobba
and probably a few other things I'm forgetting.

As expected, High Elves outperformed in every facet of the game except shooting. The lack of template weapons is huge. Also, the changes to fear were a real benefit to him. Rather than simply outright fleeing, he at least was able to offer combat. On the rerolls from his BsB, he only failed fear once.

@ Anathir
Placing mages is going to be a big problem. I actually took a 10 man bunker unit of spear and stuck one mage in there. The other lvl 2 went in with the sea guard on my left flank and the archmage went in with the seaguard on my right flank. With Throne of Vines active, the toughness buff spell made the archmage unit T7. I marched them into combat with impunity, Archmage or not. He challenged on the first round of combat, slew his unit champion and then acted as an extra S3 attack from then on. He survived quite well in this case because we were facing goblins

Considering the potential cataclysmic effect of a miscast, putting a mage in with a large unit is risky. However, leaving one on their own is unthinkable. TLOS makes an Eagle mount a complete liability. I can't yet decide on the best place for them. I'm glad to have some advice from others.

Lore of Life is all about Throne of Vines. It allows you to ignore miscasts on a 2+. With its other spells being a quality mix of damage and buffs, you can throw lots of dice at them and hope for boxcars. Without that protection, double 6s feels bitter sweet. You get the spell off and immediately begin wondering how bad the fallout is going to be.

[Pash]

Good battle report buddy, a pleasure to read. If you get any others please put them online. Always a pleasure to read how units perform in ACTUAL games rather than just speculations.

[Ptolemy]

Okay, here is another. This time against Dwarves. 3k again.

Note: Purposefully trying NOT to field a Star Dragon Prince for those wondering. I can't see a reasonable way to protect it from STR 10 cannons that autohit rider AND mount and suffer no penalties from cover.

My List
Overall, similar to above. Take out the Lion Chariot and a Eagle. Add in a unit of 18 swordmasters with FC and Banner of Sorcery.

Scenario: We rolled a scenario that splits the table diagonally and forces some troops to go into reserves. You can bring in reserves at any time from your own table edge much like dwarven miners.

Terrain: Terrain was a problem in this game. We rolled a settlement (which forces you to drop 3 buildings, a mysterious structure and a number of obstacles. This whole business ended up in his deployment zone which allowed him to garrison his warmachines into two of the buildings. His grudge thrower and cannon were well protected and were basically impossible to get to as he garrisoned a unit of thunderers in his other tower which was positioned almost mid-center board.

His list was a fair one.
-Dwarf Lord with shieldbearers
-Runelord
- BSB Thane
- 10 Warriors
- 2x 15 Thunderers
- 30 Longbeards
- 30 Hammerers
- 25 Longbeard Rangers
- Organ Gun
- Grudge Thrower
- Cannon
- 2x Bolt Thrower

Results: Crushing loss for the Elves. Several factors worked against me. He got the far superior terrain. Many of the new scenarios allow the player who wins the roll to deploy first have a 5/6 chance of ALSO going first. HUGE disadvantage for Elves facing a mean gun line (and dwarves could be SOOO much worse).

Key Observations:

Phoenix Guard- Performed well again. This time they ended up engaging the 30 Longbeards pretty much on their own. My Prince challenged to try to goad the BSB into a fight. Instead, he scored four wounds on the champion. However, a NASTY trick is to give the potion of strength to a unit champion. In the hands of a PG champ, he was able to target the BSB, reroll his missed attacks, score two hits and wound at strength 7 armor piercing (because of the Razor Standard). He killed the BSB outright. Would have broken the unit, but he brought an item that allows him to make the unit stubborn on a 4+. He rolled it. Pretty much sounded the deathknell for my army. All the same, the 4+ Ward is as reliable as ever. He sent 30 thunderer shots, 10 thrown ST5 handaxes, a cannon ball and 2 bolt throwers into the same unit in one turn. 7 PG died.

Magic Against Dwarves: Forget it. Its going to be an ‘all or nothing’ situation with Dwarves. Their version of the Annulian Crystal (whatever the rune is called) is crippling. Twice I rolled 3 for Power Dice. Even with the BoS and attempting to channel, magic was paltry. Remains in Play spells are going to autodispelled by Dwarves after the first round. There is no more “Double 1s fail a dispel attempt” so they are going to have a full 2d6 of power dice to dispel anything that remains in play. Since they can’t use them for anything else, expect this to mean you will have to stay away from Remains in Play stuff. Also, they have bonuses to dispel attempts like no one’s business. Much harder to get spells through in 8th on Dwarves.

Dwarven Artillery: Folks, this is going to be something we have to solve and I can’t say I have a good answer as of yet. Dwarven artillery is incredibly deadly. Rerolling scatters, rerolling artillery, rerolling misfires…..christ. His Grudge Thrower panicked an entire unit of sea guard off the board in turn 1 (along with the wizard in them [I didn’t have them in BSB range. Stupid mistake on my part].) I sent twenty shots at his cannon from a unit of seaguard. Didn’t score a single wound. Counter battery fire is going to be required to take out warmachines and quickly. Only the #2 Lore of Light spell can reliably protect us from warmachine fire. Of course, the wizard who had Lore of Light was the one who got panicked so go figure.

Scenarios: In both 8th ed games I’ve played I’ve noticed a real need to prepare for scenarios now as much as for an opponent. Some of these scenarios offer wildly oddball deployment. Things we take for granted (like Dark Elves and Thunderers being unable to shoot you if they get the first turn) is completely out the window. Many of the scenarios I think are poorly written in that they put one army at a CLEAR disadvantage from the moment the game begins. Usually, if an opponent can chose his side for deployment (assuming to have picked a terrain placement that favors him), you can at least hope that you can get the first turn. As I said, in the case of at least two of the six scenarios the person who picked their side has a 5/6 chance of ALSO going first. Try to imagine the glee a gunline is going to have if they know they are going to go first. They can toss a hail of arrows, bullets, artillery and so on knowing that you have no choice but to eat it. Many of us HE generals are counting on magic to weather this storm. If you don’t get first turn, you don’t have any magic.

Not going to get a chance at another game for at least ten days or so. Next time out, I’m going to bring the dragon and see what it takes to keep him alive.

[Bolt Thrower]

I wonder if the dwarf errata will mention anything about power dice generation. Seems odd to me that they would handle the winds of magic as effectively as any other army.

[HERO]

Hmm.. I don't think so. Dwarves got buffed considerably in 8th Ed. and I think that's good. (they needed it)

Dwarf shooting is incredibly effective.. and relatively cheap for their cost. 2-1 Bolt Throwers, Cannons with RoForging, Stone Throwers w/ RoPenetration + RoAccuracy, re-rolls al over the place. Elves, as great as they are in combat, don't do so well vs. something that can shoot things dead AND fight well at the same time.

Dwarves, also have one of the most solid defenses in the game. A Runelord gives them +2 DD, Runesmiths gives them +1, Anvil gives them +1. MRoBalance is their version of the Annullian Crystal and they can take as many RoSpellbreakings as they have room for (their version of the scroll). This, combined with their +2 innate ability to dispel magic, makes using magic against them a very risky scenario.

[Dracos]

Magic has always been an iffy proposition verus Dawi if they were ready for such an opponent. As it should be. I'd suggest you find a way to make your Dragons work and concentrate on Bolt Throwers as your anti-artillery pieces.

Pound gobbos and take one from the Dawi, sounds like 7th ed to me

[Lathaon]

Seems like they'll be pretty tough, especially when they get the first turn.

Their magic defense actually sounds quite overpowered to me. +2 to dispel, multiple scroll equivalents, and ridiculous numbers of dispel dice? Sounds like we're going to need to do some serious character killing, and/or get some miscast protection and throw lots of dice at the important spells.

[Dracos]

Don't forget the Dawi don't get to add a Spellcasters level to their dispel attempts. That could add up to quite alot of equivilant dispel dice

[Ptolemy]

RBTs as anti artillary are wildly inefficient in 8th. If you single shot an enemy warmachine with T7, you will hit 50% of the time. Wounding would require a 5+ which means you would only wound 33% of the time.

If you multishot it, you are going to hit, on average 3/6 shots on the warmachine. Now it is your S4 vs T7. You need 6s. Stastical average says you will have to HIT the warmachine 18 times (which means you'll have to throw 36 shots or 6 volleys at it) to kill it. If that is what you brought a 100pt warmachine for, save the points and buy more wizards.

Lets not forget, your opponent can insta-kill your RBTs super easy now. A single cannon shot will almost never miss. He hits the RBT, wounds on 2s, d6 wounds. Odds are your RBT is gone in round 1 if he wants it gone.

As for making the Dragons work, I'm all ears. Against any army that doesn't have cannons they will be fine. In my local metagame, I'm facing 2 empire players and at least 3 dwarf players. TLOS is making a dragon's life hell.

The latest rumor I just caught wind of (I have to check the 8th BRB) is that mounts cannot attack in a challenge if the opponent has already been killed by the rider. That assures that the most our dragon rider can get in overkill is +4 and that assumes he hits all 4 times and wounds all 4 times with no successful saves of any kind. The S7, thunderstomping dragon just sits there and does nothing. Against a fully ranked unit that is a max of your CR 4 to his 3 ranks+Standard=4. He has a musician, you take a break check. If you fail to wound even with one attack, you will be taking that break check on no so reliable numbers. Not exactly what we would expect from a 600 point model.

Also, I cannot stress enough how much the scenarios will change how you approach the game. Things like assaulting a building are going to be common occurances now. If your LGS chooses to play straight out of the book, you are going to have to adapt on the fly all the time.

[Dracos]

Also, I cannot stress enough how much the scenarios will change how you approach the game. Things like assaulting a building are going to be common occurances now. If your LGS chooses to play straight out of the book, you are going to have to adapt on the fly all the time.

I can only hope so. I strongly suspect/hope this will discourage uber-builds and increase the occurance of well balanced armies capable of carrying out variable missions.

Maybe Dragons aren't the solution. I guess I'm to use to playing my Asrai. I assumed the Asur would have even less issues with warmachines than the Wood Elves. Asrai don't have any artillery and I've always has less problems with Dawi artillery than their blocks of heavy infantry.

[CrazyCarl]

I'm pretty sure you're wrong on the mount thing. I believe it reads that if a monster mount and rider are in a challenge and the rider dies, the challenger still fights the monster.

[pk-ng]

No he's correct. In a challenge if the rider kills the oppoent the dragon cannot attack for overkills.

[faile]

interesting point to note if I read this right on wensday, cavalry can now attack buildings, you cna assault a building, but you fight as if on foot, no mounts attacking, but cannot actually occupy the building
Just a useful one if they've garrisioned a war machine in a building, especially if you can fly your hero up there or get your reavers there sharpish ((Doiing brets atm so that's a big thing for me ))
I thought the stomp thing worked before you attacked anyway so would be good for challenges if you charge and challenge?

[CrazyCarl]

No he's correct. In a challenge if the rider kills the oppoent the dragon cannot attack for overkills.

Oh, my bad, I completely misunderstood what he was saying. Yeah, a Prince killing a unit champion, then denying your dragon the extra overkill is sadtime. Combo-charging is the way to go!