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Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?
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Author:  Ptolemy [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Hey all,

In considering options for our Character builds, I was looking through my LGS's copy of the 8th ed book for about an hour yesterday trying to find out how characters with different sized bases work in units (ie, cavalry character attached to a 20mm infantry unit). This was always a popular ( and I think 'look' appealing) way to field BSBs and might end up being an ideal way to kit out a combat Prince.

The rumors floating were that if your character's base was a different size, that Look out Sir! became a 4+ (instead of 2+).

However, I believe this is wrong and am looking for others to confirm. Nothing in the rulebook (I scoured the page 93 description of the rule, the character section and the unit types section) indicates that a model that joins a unit with a different size base suffers from a lesser Look out Sir benefit. It does say, clearly, that if the model won't neatly fit (as they don't with HE) then the character is attached to the extreme flank of the unit.

I believe the rumors confused a different rule, which is characters 'nearby' to a unit get a 4+ Look Out Sir (previously in 7th they got nothing).

Has anyone found this rumor to be true and I missed it? Does this make putting HE characters on mounts and sticking them with infantry an attractive option again?

Author:  Silver [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Lookout Sire while within the same unit type (foot hero in infantry, hero mounted on a steed in cavalry) is 2+
While near the unit of the same type its 4+

If the unit types are not the same, you get NO "lookout, sire!"

That's how its been explained to me, by people that have read the book.

Author:  Ptolemy [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Having had the book in my hand several times over the past week, I saw nothing to indicate that to be the case. Nowhere in the section on characters or the explanation of the LOS! rule did it say that a different base size gets no help.

Author:  Silver [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

something along the lines that the requirement to take a lookout, sire roll is

"if you are of the same type than the unit you are with, you can attempt a look out sire"

Author:  CrazyCarl [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Silver wrote:
something along the lines that the requirement to take a lookout, sire roll is

"if you are of the same type than the unit you are with, you can attempt a look out sire"

Yep, that's the risk you take giving the character additonal armor/movement.

Author:  Silver [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

It sucks for my Gorbad Ironclaw.. I ain't taking expensive boarboyz so he has to sit with Wolf gobbos until its safe to come out and play... -_-

A terrible change for this edition.

Author:  Ptolemy [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Again, I haven't seen anything like that in the rulebook. I'll go and look again tomorrow.

Author:  Silver [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Ptolemy wrote:
Again, I haven't seen anything like that in the rulebook. I'll go and look again tomorrow.


Read what allows you to take a lookout sire roll.

I'm going to take a look as well tomorrow.

Author:  Allerion [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Silver wrote:
It sucks for my Gorbad Ironclaw.. I ain't taking expensive boarboyz so he has to sit with Wolf gobbos until its safe to come out and play... -_-

A terrible change for this edition.


Wasnt it that way in the 6th or 5th? plus, it makes sense. I dont know about you, but if I had to shoot at a unit of gobbos, with one big nasty riding a boar, im shooting the mofo on the pig.

Author:  Ptolemy [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Unfortunately, you were right, Silver.

I checked out the book again today. There is a line in the character section that says a character has to be the same type of troop (infantry,cav,monstrous cav, etc) to benefit from look out sir. A character joined to a unit would therefore not be able to be picked out by targeted shooting but could be popped by a template.

Basically makes Tyrion unplayable. He is considered Monstrous Cav in an army that has no other Monstrous Cav models.

Author:  pk-ng [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

don't you still get a 4+ look our sire if you're 3" away from a RnF unit?

Author:  HERO [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Ptolemy wrote:
Unfortunately, you were right, Silver.

I checked out the book again today. There is a line in the character section that says a character has to be the same type of troop (infantry,cav,monstrous cav, etc) to benefit from look out sir. A character joined to a unit would therefore not be able to be picked out by targeted shooting but could be popped by a template.

Basically makes Tyrion unplayable. He is considered Monstrous Cav in an army that has no other Monstrous Cav models.


Tyrion needs to be on a regular cav mount.

That alone would make him playable :/ (well, and some revised rules to fix his otherwise non-existent 0+/4++/4+ regen)

Author:  Ptolemy [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

No LOS at all unless the character is the same troop type as the unit he is trying to gain cover from.

The book has an example of a bloodthirster being unable to get a LOS from a unit of plaguebearers. Reason cited was that the BT was a monster and the plaguebearers are infantry.

Author:  Lord Anathir [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Its very similar to 6th edition shooting targetting restrictions in a way.

Author:  Brian Mage [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Tyrion is NOT on a Monstrous mount
he was in the 6th ed Army Book, but not in 7th. (which holds true for the 8th ed BRB)

Stick him on cavalry base pop him in some DP's, done.
Gaming and fluff sorted. 8th ed wins!

If anyone tells you that you are wrong, give them the Army Book and ask them to show you why...

Some people argue about "Put it on the base provided" but that is not the case if a models rules change

Author:  Silver [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Actually you have to go by the new Unit Type chart for every army model (including special characters) in the big rule book. I don't know what Tyrion's unit type is in the new chart but if its Cavalry, you can leave him on the 50mm base and stick him in Cavalry

Author:  HERO [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

If Tyrion gets put on a regular mount, I'll think about converting him from my Prince/Noble sprue :)

Author:  Ptolemy [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

In the 8th ed BRB High Elf Army chart, Tyrion is Monstrous Cavalry. He cannot get LOS from anything in the HE army.

Also, it says somewhere in the 8th ed book (i forget where) that models must be put on the bases they are provided with.

Author:  MET [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

What about those of us who still have the old edition Tyrion on a normal cavalry base are we expected to rebase our models?

Author:  Dracos [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

MET wrote:
What about those of us who still have the old edition Tyrion on a normal cavalry base are we expected to rebase our models?

Yes.

Just like Dragons and Giants need to be rebased properly if playing in a competitive environment.

Author:  Ptolemy [ Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Dracos is right. Tyrion is Monstrous Cavalry per 8th ed BRB. He'll have to go on his currently issued base.

Author:  MET [ Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

I don't play in a competative environment so i guess I'll leave him as.

Author:  Elanil [ Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

BAM! I have been arguing against Tyrion on a 25x50 base ever since it first came up and I have been proven right. Monstrous cavalry = 50x50 base. Tyrion = monstrous cavalry. Tyrion = 50x50 base. It's in the rulebook.

But yeah, he is totally useless now. He loses one of his 4+ saves so he's 1+ rerollable and one 4+ ward, he can be targeted freely by any template weapon or cannon, and he can never get a look out sir roll.

Giant nerfbat.

Author:  Dracos [ Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

MET wrote:
I don't play in a competative environment so i guess I'll leave him as.

Which is fine but one would hope as a respect to your opponents, you would play with him as if he were based properly :) i.e. monstrous cavalry.

Author:  Allerion [ Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

MET wrote:
What about those of us who still have the old edition Tyrion on a normal cavalry base are we expected to rebase our models?


Quote:
Also, it says somewhere in the 8th ed book (i forget where) that models must be put on the bases they are provided with.


unless it says that models must be based on the base that the CURRENT version of the model comes with, I would argue that the model IS based on the base it came with.

Author:  Musashi [ Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

One reason most of us left Tyrion as he was, was because of his special rules which made him tough to eliminate; if he does get easier to be singled out and killed, he probably does need a point adjustment and/or some tinkering.

Author:  MET [ Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Dracos wrote:
MET wrote:
I don't play in a competative environment so i guess I'll leave him as.

Which is fine but one would hope as a respect to your opponents, you would play with him as if he were based properly :) i.e. monstrous cavalry.


I'm happy to play it any way my opponent agees to. We normally have a discussion on issues like this before the game starts so that we don't have any conflict mid battle.

Author:  Gramkillsfafnir [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Characters in units still get a 2+ look out sir,
its just for the purposes of the 4+ one you get for being near a unit that you have to be the same troop type

Author:  Silver [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

Gramkillsfafnir wrote:
Characters in units still get a 2+ look out sir,
its just for the purposes of the 4+ one you get for being near a unit that you have to be the same unit type


No, characters in units of the SAME type get the 2+, characters of DIFFERENT types get no look out sir whatsoever, go read the rules again, its quite clear.

Page 99, "of the same troop type as the unit"

Author:  Gramkillsfafnir [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Look out sir rumor untrue? Affects model builds?

oops i see it, ok

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