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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:43 pm 
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I actually quite like fire. Since I play a DM quite often, I think these new spells could be very cool. I wonder about the rule of the DM defaulting to the flaming sword though. As it's written above, it doesn't seem to coincide with the warrior mage fluff.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:25 pm 
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At the moment I think that I'll take Lore of Shadows on may Archmage with Book of Ashur since I really like they way that the Shadow Lore works with our army.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:03 pm 
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The reason why I don't like Fire is because of the following:

The only good thing to come out of that lore that supports us fully is Flaming Swords. The +1 to wound is very useful since most of us are S3. The fireballs, burning heads, and other flaming attacks is a subpar version of Flames of the Phoenix and Fury of Khaine. To further strengthen this argument, we should consider the fact that Vaul's Unmaking is one of the greatest spells in 8th Ed. Since everyone is toking magical banners and brand new magical weapons, we are going to have a field day with this. Hopefully, the FAQ will be generous and not increase any of the casting values of High Magic. Right now, with a lv.4 Wizard and no further items, you can get it off on a 8+.

As for why I don't like Heavens:
Too many buffs and debuffs that deal with random chance. The damage is also subpar and the comet is pretty worthless because of the speed at which things move now.

I will get to the other lores later on.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:38 pm 
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Hero, you said this about the 6 spell of shadow:

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... but I'm seeing this conflict with Withering Hex which has the same range, costs less and essentially does the same thing.


The big difference is that the 6 spell is until the caster's next phase, where as withering hex is an RIP. This is quite a difference as you can use the 6 spell the turn before you accept a charge and know you have it before determining charge reactions, where as hex can be dispelled in his turn leaving your unit without any magic support.

After your correction to banishment, shadow is definitely my favourite. It has some great anti super unit debuffs, the strength and toughness hexs + 6 spell can let a unit of spearmen take on chaos warriors, even if you get only a single one of those spells off. Also in terms of damage you have the default spell + pendulum/pit of shades combo to put the hurt on expensive unit/multiwound units.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Quote:
The big difference is that the 6 spell is until the caster's next phase, where as withering hex is an RIP. This is quite a difference as you can use the 6 spell the turn before you accept a charge and know you have it before determining charge reactions, where as hex can be dispelled in his turn leaving your unit without any magic support.


Excellent point on the RIP.
Shadow is indeed a very powerful Lore with HE :)

I'd also like to mention another quick oversight in Lore of Metal:

5+ Scaly skin on top of White Lion's natural resistance towards shooting makes them 1+ vs shooting LOL!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:59 pm 
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HERO wrote:
Shadow is indeed a very powerful Lore with HE :)


Shadow will probably be the first lore I try with an Archmage. Spells 4,5,6 just sound awesome.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:24 am 
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Part 2 of the Magic series is up:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high ... -2_25.html

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:33 pm 
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That was a great read. Definitely narrowed down my magic selections to either metal or life (I never know what to take and end up taking fire lol). Look forward to anything else you write.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:08 pm 
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I will be getting to either the list building or the strategy portion today.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:24 pm 
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HERO wrote:

Looking over your comments on Drain Magic got me thinking, back in 7th Edition Drain Magic did not affect bound items, I wonder if this will change in 8th Edition as they have to use power dice.

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:37 pm 
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I would think so. Bound items require a casting value now because you're throwing PD at it. Right?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:47 pm 
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I was also thinking about Lore of Death’s Leach spell, seems to me that as you target a model it may be also ideally suited to eliminating war machines and chariots, especially in the Teclis’ hands.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:22 am 
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Another post.

Making a list:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high ... -list.html

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:26 pm 
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HERO wrote:


Nice write up Hero.
There are some initial similarities with the 2000pt list I have come up with for 8th, such as the LSG with Eternal Flame but we then deviate quite a bit mainly over my inclusion of RBTs, SMs and DPs which you have moved away from for this edition. So heres my list for comaprison.

AM, lvl 4, Annulian Crystal, Bow of Seafarer.
360

Noble, Great Eagle, HoF, GP, DA,Sh, Lance
Noble, BSB, AoC, Pond Stone, GW
364

30 Spearmen
20LSG, Sh, Full command, Banner opf Eternal Flame
565

5 DPs, Std, BoS
12 SM, Std, Champ, Skein
461

2 RBTs
1 GE
250

2000pts.

A few quirks in there I know but there were certain things I wanted due to the army background we all need to write for our 8th ed club event.

Im currently thinking I might stay with High magic but not certain yet


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:52 am 
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Didn’t mean to hijack your thread btw.
It’s just interesting that I will be running units you like from 7th like the SMs, DPs and RBTs but which you are not including in the 8th lists you’re writing up atm.

I’m just coming back to WFB and building the list from stuff lying around at home, so I have what I have.
I’ll try and keep you updated on how they perform for me in the new edition

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:04 am 
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And yet another article:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high ... ategy.html

This time, on strategy on how I'm going to to use the units in my unit bucket.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:42 pm 
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Recently I have been thinking about horde rules and stepping up. Now back in 7th Ed I would take elite combat units 7 wide to get extra attacks so I could kill as much as possible to prevent being struck back and get decent combat res, cause our armour/toughness sucks.

In 8th this wont work due to stepping up and the wider I am the more attacks the enemy will get. Now HE arnt horde. Even spearmen is stupidly expensive for trying to make horde.

So why not do the opposite of what everyone is doing?

I am going to test just having 5 wide units again. This mean I will still be getting:

Swordmasters: 16 Str5 attacks with champ
White lions: 11 Str6 attacks with champ
Phoenix guard: 11 str4 attacks with champ.

Now this means against a horde unit of say 40 (probably standard for most)
You will only be getting hit back by 14 (21 if spears) rather than all who can. This will really help our chances of surviving a lot more.

I also plan on giving my white lions those flaming attacks and the swordmasters or phoenix guard the AP banner.

This combined with a noble (and bsb) in the elite units for extra oompf as well as 2 mages in support (lore of life! Making our men tougher/stronger with regen and the chance of ressing our elite troops) is the way to go I feel.

The game I tested raised 6 white lions in what shot and put me back to 1 under starting strength at the end of the game and totally swung a combat around.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:02 pm 
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Since ranks doesn't really matter on Stubborn units, why not 6x3 or 6x4 on White Lions.

Phoenix Guard can sit at 5x4 for 20 and Sword Masters should just be 6x2-3 for the sake of points and act as counter-charger units (fake detachments).

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:16 pm 
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Makes sense. I'm not worried about hordes though. They're going to be really vulnerable against templates and spells which hit every model in the unit. Also, fewer but bigger units means debuffs will hurt a lot more.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:32 pm 
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It would be nice if we can just thin-red-line across the board, reform a turn before the charge and go for it.

Don't know how that'll play out though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:48 am 
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Hi!
i'm new here, joined to put forth my opinion of the 8th ed rules.
i've only played 1 game so far (against Welves), but from that, I can say a few things about magic with confidence.
first: lore of Shadows is great. I had the 3 hexes (spells no. 0, 2 and 3) and they all were instrumental in decimating his army. lowering the strngth of dryads so they wouldn't kill my swordmasters, the toughness of wardancers (which he failed to dispel) and the BS of glade guard felt so powerful. I would not mind taking that again.
second:banner of sorcery is almost too good, espacially in small (sub 2k) games.making sure I had the dice to cast at least two, and often three of my spells with 3-4 PD forced some tough dispelling desicions on my opponent.
third: the staff of solidity is likely a waste. I forgot my archmage had it, but the 3 times he "misforced" i'd rather my opponent not dispelling it than my archmage not taking damage, especially since he was not in a unit.

cheers,
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:34 am 
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Aye, I will definately have the BoS in my lists.
With the new magic rules I think the difference between PDs and DDs is just as important as the overall number of PDs

I would see my most potent magic phase coming on
A double 4 for winds
3 for the BoS
And a channeld dice for me without one for my opponent

Thats 12 PDs for me and only 4 DDs with which he can defend

The BoS, JoD etc are all things that seem to greatly increase your dominance in your phase and protect against a High/Low roll for winds that would see your opponent almost matching your PDs with DDs

Its why, as Hero has said the AC is so nice
on a 6,5,4,3,2,1/1 for winds you actually end up with more DDs than the opponent has PDs (his special items aside ofc)
If the lower winds roll is a 2 then you're even PDs/DDs and still have the advantage due to our +1 to dispel


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:41 pm 
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Hero on your blog you wrote that for the 6 spell of shadow the units new strength does negate armor. How sure are you of this? Its basically a lore clincher if so.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:43 pm 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
Hero on your blog you wrote that for the 6 spell of shadow the units new strength does negate armor. How sure are you of this? Its basically a lore clincher if so.


That's pretty much what we're all debating about right now.

Let's read the spell word for word again and you tell me if I'm correct:

Quote:
Okkam's Mindrazor Cast on 18+
Okkam's Mindrazor is an augment spell with a range of 18" and lasts until the start of the caster's next magic phase.
Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any strength bonuses from weapons are ignored).
The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to 36". If he does so, the casting value of Okkam's Mindrazor is increased to 21+.


Models use their leadership instead of strength when rolling to wound in all close combat attacks.

At first, I was like.. eh... instead of strength would apply that I only use the number and not the characteristic.. but then the rolling to wound part suggests it is in fact, a characteristic.

.... (any strength bonuses from weapons are ignored)

Weapons aka Lances, Great Weapons are strength bonuses. A S3 Spearmen becoming S8 is a result of a spell. Strength, just like magic missile strength, or a spell from the Beasts' Lore, can be augmented just like this can. Although you won't get S10 DPs because they charged with a Lance this turn, they will still be S9 when attacking because of their leadership.

Now...

If the spell did in fact want strength modifiers to apply to armor saves, then the correct wording would of been "models use their leadership AS THEIR strength when rolling to wound..." but sadly, it does not. Instead, they had to word it all weird and open to interpretation.

To help this case though, it's the last spell in the lore; on the likes of Purple Sun, Dwellers and other death spells. It could very well be that it modifies their strength value and thus the armor value, or else it wouldn't make sense to be in the last spot.

With this in mind, I'm going with that by design, or RAI, that it indeed, modifies the armor saves of your target ala strength values.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:41 pm 
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hmm that can go either way. How then would you calculate armor saves? would you use the strength from the weapon, the leadership value or just raw strength?

RAI-wise I find it hard to justify the strength modifying armor saves based on the words 'when rolling to wound'. If they mean it to affect armor saves it would no doubt have said 'for combat'.

Any way you could look up the armor rules and find the exact words they use when they mention strength negating armor? There is a reasonable chance it says that the strength used is the one used when roll to wound, in which case the spell would affect armor.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:15 pm 
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In my opinion, the intent is that the new strength used would affect the armor save. This is the more common sense approach. Otherwise, what's the point? Take the Dragon Princes for example. They charge into combat. They are then augmented by Mind Razor allowing them to have strength 9. From here there are two paths to take:

1. DP's roll using strength 9 to wound. Basically they are wounding on anything but a 1. However, since the spell specifically states that weapon bonuses are lost and doesn't specify that the augmented strength affects saves, the opponent would save against a strength 3 attack.

or

2. DP's roll using strength 9 to wound. Basically they are wounding on anything but a 1. The spell specifically states that weapon bonuses are lost. This leaves the augmented strength 9 causing the wound. Strength 9 = minus 6 to the armour save (at least in 7th it did).

Option 2 is worth the casting value of the spell. It's the big daddy of the lore. To me, affecting only to wound rolls, but not modifying save rolls is a bust for the lore. It just wouldn't make sense.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:31 pm 
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Quote:
RAI-wise I find it hard to justify the strength modifying armor saves based on the words 'when rolling to wound'. If they mean it to affect armor saves it would no doubt have said 'for combat'.


Correct, but it does say "with all close combat attacks". All close combat attacks in the game work the same way, unless it specifically (and I do mean specifically) mentions differently e.g. TK's Smiting or Destroyer of Eternities.

Quote:
1. DP's roll using strength 9 to wound. Basically they are wounding on anything but a 1. However, since the spell specifically states that weapon bonuses are lost and doesn't specify that the augmented strength affects saves, the opponent would save against a strength 3 attack.


Weapon bonuses are lost, but that doesn't mean strength value is ever discounted. Weapon bonuses only refers to things such as Lances or Great Weapons, weapons that physically augment the user's strength.

Dragon Princes striking at S9 hand weapons or pseudo-lances are indeed S9. The weapon is directly equal to what the user's strength is.

And by RAW, the strength of the weapon modifies armor saves when resolving attacks.

Anyways, this is the grand daddy spell in the lore. A death-spell, an ownage spell. Let's just pretend that GW is not completely idiotic and made this spell actually worth its casting cost.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:31 pm 
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Hmm...

So, cast this on a block of Spearmen or Sea Guard and with re-rolling misses to hit, plus only needing 2+ to wound it should mean they'll finally be able to kill stuff just through the volume of attacks, even if it doesn't modify the armour save...

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:40 am 
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Eh..
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/07/8th- ... sions.html

Didn't go into too much detail, but you can pretty much take I learned from my 2 games (playing as HE and Dwarves) and go with it as pretty reliable information.

Warmachines are brutal man.. Stone Throwers just utterly dominate when they land on top of your nice big unit of Spears. No partials is painful. Insanely painful.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:08 pm 
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The problem with eagles now is they can't flee like they used to. My understanding is that flyers use their ground movement when fleeing now. So they will flee on 2d6 instead of 3d6. Nerfs them a bit. They also are no quarantee at march blocking. The enemy gets to roll a leadership test to see if they can march. So, with re-rolls from the BSB there is a good chance that they will march anyway. Also on bolt throwers, they will certainly now want to sit at the back of your line as far back as they can to avoid the enemy being able to shoot them. I think they will be pretty safe still with 6's needing to wound. The enemy would need to get close enough to hit them, which would also mean they would most likely be close enough for us to charge them. Movement is VERY fast now and the enemy will move quickly to your lines. I still think they are very viable.


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