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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:09 am 
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Copied directly from my blog onto here:

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So 8th Ed brings a lot of new things. The entire game has changed and thus, my unit selection has to go through intensive revision in order to stay competitive. I'll start with Lords and Heroes since I want to cover everything.

Archmage builds:
Lv.4, Annulian Crystal = 300
Lv.4, Book of Ashur (new item) = 330

The reason why these two will work is because they're relatively cheap and have specific purposes. The Silver Wand and Seerstaff is no longer a good choice for Archmages because of the way magic selection works. I still roll 4 dice randomly pick spells, but for each double I roll I get to pick the spell instead of re-rolling to see what I get. Chances to me to get the one or two spells I really want is pretty high already. Another reason not to take these two items is because I can only take one Arcane item and both Annulian Crystal and Book of Ashur are superior choices. This also means that dispel scrolls cannot be taken if the Archmage already has an arcane item.

I'll go ahead right now and explain to you why I think these two configurations is the way to do it. Annulian Crystal takes 1 PD from him and gives me 1 DD. This gives be a better chance to defend against his magic because he rolls 2d6 for power dice during his magic phase and I get the highest for dispel dice. By taking away one of his PD for an extra DD, I nerf his magic and buff my defense. The Book of Ashur is a fantastic choice because it's basically Starwood Staff and Staff of Sorcery on one item. For 10 points less and the fact they're both arcane items, this is as good as it gets. My Lv.4 Archmage now has +1 to cast and +1 to dispel. This gives me magic offense with +5 to cast and +6 to dispel because of High Elves' innate +1 and this item. Beautiful.

Mage builds:
Lv.2 Mage, Seerstaff of Saphery = 165
Lv.1 Mage, Annulian Crystal = 140
Lv.1 Mage, Jewel of Dusk = 115

The Lv.2 and the Seerstaff is self-explaintory. You have a Mage with 2 spells that you can choose from any lore in Warhammer. This is a pretty solid investment. The Lv.1 Mages are there as magical defense and magic offense. The crystal's purpose is already explained above.. which gives you more long term usability than say a single dispel scroll. As for the Lv.1 with Jewel of Dusk, this item is much better than the new item, Channeling Rod that gives the bearer +1 to channel an additional energy or dispel. You don't want to ever rely on channeling to give you an extra DD, you want absolutes and results. The Jewel of Dusk is simply +1 PD to your power pool and the Annulian Crystal jacks him and supplies you with an extra DD.

Prince builds:
Prince as DP, Dragon Helm (new item), Vambraces of Defense, Halberd = 257
Prince as DP, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix, Blade of Sea Gold = 276
Prince on Foot, Armor of Caledor, Vambraces of Defense, GW = 242
Prince on Foot, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, White Sword, Talisman of Loec = 250

I went with 2 types of build for each type of Prince; both offensively and defensively. The ones with Vambraces are obviously defensive.. with the first DP on the barded elven steed having a 1+ re-rollable, immune to fire and a 4+ ward. He's also sitting with 35 points that you can add a weapon to. The Prince on foot is going with a 2+ re-rollable and 4+ ward with a humble Great Weapon. As for the offensive princes, the first one has a Helm of Fortune which gives him a re-rollable 1+ armor save and 5+ ward. The Blade of Sea Gold ignores armor saves and is great for punching holes in something like enemy knights. Since ASF with higher or equal I gets to strike first and re-roll hits, WS7 and I7 with ASF just became a little better at hitting his target. The only thing that slightly nerfs weapons that ignore armor saves is the fact that parry bonus now gives the unit 6+ ward in close combat. Things brings us up to next Prince setup.. which is a popular setup from 7th for those that like to play their princes on foot. The 2+/5++ save is pretty meager, but the White Sword and Talisman is a hero-killer. With +2 strength and KB, re-rolls to hit because of the new ASF rules and the talisman to force your opponents to re-roll his successful ward saves, the White Sword Price is a challenge machine.

***Notice I didn't include any Star Dragon builds? That's because the cost to play them is in 2500 point games. Since we don't know what's going to be the "popular" points to play at yet, I'm going to just make builds for 2k. Besides, the Star Dragon build with Armor of Caledor and Vambraces of Defense will hardly change.***

Noble builds:
Noble as DP, BSB, Battle Banner, Halberd = 218
Noble as DP, BSB, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix, Halberd = 188
Noble on Foot, BSB, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, GW = 168

Notice a trend here? I don't take the noble other than BSB purposes. If I want combat potential, I look at Caradryan and Korhil because they're both better choices for the cost. I'll explain why in a bit. So anyways, the noble on the horses have a 2+ save with the Battle Banner and a 1+ re-rollable, 5+ ward without. The survivability here is absolutely huge. If you don't take magical banners, your noble will be a hell of a lot more survivable. In 8th Ed., the BSB is a HUGE player in how things turn out. That's because the BSB allows re-rolls of ALL leadership related tests within 12" of it. If your general is in range, you're using his leadership and re-rolling any failed tests. Another thing that makes me sad is that the noble on the horse cannot really join infantry units (unit type) and feel safe. Sure, ranged attacks like Bolt Throwers, magic missiles, bows and guns go into the unit, but indirect weapons such as Stone Throwers or Cannons or something that's magical template will be able to hit him with confidence. But what about Look Out Sir! you say? When models are the same unit type and in a unit, characters get a 2+ Look Out Sir. If he's on a horse, this is reduced to a 4+. I don't know about you guys.. but that doesn't give me confidence in knowing that my Battle Banner can be sniped out from under me. That's a BSB, a character and a 80 point banner to lose in one cannon shot.

Special Characters:
Teclis
Korhil
Caradryan

I'll only cover 3 special characters because I either have little experience playing the others, or think they suck. It's probably because I think they suck that I have little experience playing them. For example, I'll start with Tyrion really quick: He's the fastest elf at I10, has WS9 and rides a M10 mount. That's nice. Last edition, he had a 0+ armor save, 4+ ward and 4+ regen. This Ed, the max armor save he can have is 1+ and he can only make a ward or regen roll, not both. Sure, the MR2 and S7 is nice.. but not 400 points nice. Maybe if they re-do some of his rules in the FAQ, put him on a normal cavalry sized base and errata the fact he has regen and ward, we can look at him again.

As for Alith, Eltharion and Dragon Mages, I don't think they're worth their points. Alith just doesn't add enough combat potential, Eltharion and Stormwing is poor man's version of Prince on Star Dragon and Dragon Mages are overpriced for what they do.

Well, first thing's first. Let's talk about Teclis and he offers us in 8th Ed. First, his price makes him playable at 2k points because of the 25% rule. Since all casters pull from the same pool and Teclis generates +D3 power and dispel dice every turn, this helps immensely. Teclis was a greedy little bastard to begin with when it comes to magic, so this works heavily in our favor. In 8th, you'll only see 1-2 casters in most lists simply because the bonus to cast and dispel much more important on big casters. Annulian Crystal, move aside. +D3 possible dispel dice per turn with his +5 innate dispel is huge. To make things even better, Teclis still has his uber forget scroll when no other Archmage can take a arcane item and a dispel scroll. Now comes the big winner: Teclis scores IF on any doubles and his Warhelm of Saphery dispels his first miscast every turn. Now how magic works in 8th Ed is that when you IF, you lose control and miscast. Also when you IF, it doesn't matter if you hit the casting value or not, the spell will go off regardless. So let's say you want to cast the 20+ version of the uber Beast spell and turn yourself into the Dragon. Now you can on a roll of 1,1 and 2 if you throw 3 dice at it. If you lose control because you throw double 6s, good for you. The spell still goes off but the warhelm prevents the miscast. See where I'm going with this? Either the Book of Hoeth and Teclis need a errata or they're going to be absolutely hated. The fact that the entry for BoH and Teclis both state that IF goes off on any doubles on "any successful casting roll" means that by RAW, they must hit the 20+ need to cast.. but then again, the BRB specifically states that IF causes the spell to go off whether or not it hits the casting value or not. We will definitely need a errata on this one!

Now that Teclis is done, let's talk briefly about Korhil and Caradryan. Both of them haven't really changed since last edition except for two main rules: Stubborn and MR3. Stubborn now gives the unit Steadfast regardless or not he has more ranks. What Steadfast is (new USR) is that any unit with more ranks than the enemy will always take a leadership test without combat modifiers when making a break test. This means that you can use the BRB and your general's leadership as well. So basically, Stubborn just got better. Good for Korhil, and the fact that he still has that lovely S6 Killing Blow.. that only got better because he gets to re-roll to hit because of ASF and I7. Caradryan's MR3 no longer gives units dispel dice vs. magical attacks, but now gives them a 6+ ward save for each level of MR. MR1 will give units without a ward save a 6+ and MR3 will give them a 4+ ward vs. magical attacks. This includes missiles or direct damage attacks.. not buffs or hexes. The cool thing about this is that it also stacks with the Phoenix Guard's natural 4+ ward, so Caradryan in a unit with PG will have a 1+ (or 2+, I don't know if it's capped) ward vs. magic. Besides, I'd probably just stick them with a Banner of Arcane Protection if I wanted MR. You know what's funny? Korhil works better with Phoenix Guard and Caradryan works better with White Lions. It's true. White Lions with a 3+ vs. shooting and 4+ ward vs. magic is pretty damn good and Korhil's Stubborn makes Phoenix Guard even more annoying. Not to mention both character and their units have Stubborn and the two dudes add damage and killing potential.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:34 am 
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Thank you very much Hero for this summery.
I am very excited about the new magic rules and can't wait to study the new list of magical items. As now we can only take one dispell scroll this should make the sigil of asuryan a valiable purchase aswell along with the annulian crystal.
How about the vortex shard? Do you think this is worth the cost? As I beleive we will see some big uber magicy nonsence this ed.
As we have had herohammer and monsterhammer, is this ed now Magichammer?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:43 pm 
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I'm still no convinced about Teclis' ability to cast anything with IF on any double if it does not match the casting value. I mean, it's been FAQ'd for this edition so why should we expect it to be any different for next edition? Also, we've still to wait for the errata for 8th ed. but I highly suspect his ability is going to be reworded. I don't really want a 475pt model who can only cast one spell per turn before he blows up himself and his unit!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:19 pm 
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sneakyhighelfgit wrote:
Thank you very much Hero for this summery.
I am very excited about the new magic rules and can't wait to study the new list of magical items. As now we can only take one dispell scroll this should make the sigil of asuryan a valiable purchase aswell along with the annulian crystal.
How about the vortex shard? Do you think this is worth the cost? As I beleive we will see some big uber magicy nonsence this ed.
As we have had herohammer and monsterhammer, is this ed now Magichammer?


Sigil and Vortex are not worth it by any means. In general, 50pt scrolls aren't worth it because you're only using them to target an enemy wizard's ability to cast. You want a overall strong magic defense and thus why the single scroll is best left on the scroll caddy or you should just go with a A.crystal.

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I'm still no convinced about Teclis' ability to cast anything with IF on any double if it does not match the casting value. I mean, it's been FAQ'd for this edition so why should we expect it to be any different for next edition? Also, we've still to wait for the errata for 8th ed. but I highly suspect his ability is going to be reworded. I don't really want a 475pt model who can only cast one spell per turn before he blows up himself and his unit!


I'm not either.. but that's what the guys at the club was saying. The new IF rules specifically states that when IF goes off, it ignores whether or not you hit the casting value or not. Mind you that our book says different; and that you must hit the casting value in order for the doubles to go off IF. Alas, like many of our questions, hopefully the FAQ will provide answers.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:31 pm 
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HERO wrote:
I'm not either.. but that's what the guys at the club was saying. The new IF rules specifically states that when IF goes off, it ignores whether or not you hit the casting value or not. Mind you that our book says different; and that you must hit the casting value in order for the doubles to go off IF. Alas, like many of our questions, hopefully the FAQ will provide answers.


This isn't all that different from 7th edition IF rules. In the 7th BRB it states the same thing that "any result two or more unmodified 6s means that the spell has been cast with irresistable force." It doesn't seem that 8th is changing that rule but maybe just changing how it is worded. Considering that the IF rule is basically the same in the new BRB as it was in 7th, then I see no reason to think that Teclis/Hoeth will be played differently than they were in 7th also--meaning that you have to meet the casting value and roll doubles. Otherwise, Teclis/Hoeth is seriously broken.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:35 pm 
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Bolt Thrower wrote:
HERO wrote:
I'm not either.. but that's what the guys at the club was saying. The new IF rules specifically states that when IF goes off, it ignores whether or not you hit the casting value or not. Mind you that our book says different; and that you must hit the casting value in order for the doubles to go off IF. Alas, like many of our questions, hopefully the FAQ will provide answers.


This isn't all that different from 7th edition IF rules. In the 7th BRB it states the same thing that "any result two or more unmodified 6s means that the spell has been cast with irresistable force." It doesn't seem that 8th is changing that rule but maybe just changing how it is worded. Considering that the IF rule is basically the same in the new BRB as it was in 7th, then I see no reason to think that Teclis/Hoeth will be played differently than they were in 7th also--meaning that you have to meet the casting value and roll doubles. Otherwise, Teclis/Hoeth is seriously broken.


But that's not what I'm saying though.

The 8th Ed book specifically states (and I looked this over like a hundred times) that when the IF goes off, it goes off regardless of whether or not you hit the casting value. You could cast a 25+ to cast spell on 2 dice and roll boxcars and it'll go off.

Our book says that we need a successful casting on doubles in order for it to be IF.. so its confusing to others who will get conflicted by the 2 rules. Anyway, wait for the FAQ and enough about arguing over this.

Talk more about what I had to say in this first installment of Lords and Heroes. What combos do you guys find to be effective in 8th that I'm missing?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:02 am 
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Personally I think a prince with the +3 strength weapon and helm of fortune + loec will do just fine on a horse. 4 strength 7 rerollable (most of the time) attacks seems pretty damn good to me. And if he gets into real trouble he can always pop loec to make sure an enemy lord hits the dirt.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:39 am 
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HERO wrote:
Bolt Thrower wrote:
HERO wrote:
I'm not either.. but that's what the guys at the club was saying. The new IF rules specifically states that when IF goes off, it ignores whether or not you hit the casting value or not. Mind you that our book says different; and that you must hit the casting value in order for the doubles to go off IF. Alas, like many of our questions, hopefully the FAQ will provide answers.


This isn't all that different from 7th edition IF rules. In the 7th BRB it states the same thing that "any result two or more unmodified 6s means that the spell has been cast with irresistable force." It doesn't seem that 8th is changing that rule but maybe just changing how it is worded. Considering that the IF rule is basically the same in the new BRB as it was in 7th, then I see no reason to think that Teclis/Hoeth will be played differently than they were in 7th also--meaning that you have to meet the casting value and roll doubles. Otherwise, Teclis/Hoeth is seriously broken.


But that's not what I'm saying though.

The 8th Ed book specifically states (and I looked this over like a hundred times) that when the IF goes off, it goes off regardless of whether or not you hit the casting value. You could cast a 25+ to cast spell on 2 dice and roll boxcars and it'll go off.

Our book says that we need a successful casting on doubles in order for it to be IF.. so its confusing to others who will get conflicted by the 2 rules. Anyway, wait for the FAQ and enough about arguing over this.

Talk more about what I had to say in this first installment of Lords and Heroes. What combos do you guys find to be effective in 8th that I'm missing?


Actually if I'm not mistaken the 7th Edition BRB doesn't say that you need to make the casting value to get IF as long as it's double 6s it's casted as IF. Only the book of hoeth has specify that you also need to make the casting value in order to get the any doubles to be an IF.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:40 am 
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New tactica is up on units:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high ... units.html

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First thing is first: The entire way armies are constructed have changed. Even though there's no official statement saying that High Elves ignore any type of restrictions, there is an official statement saying that these rules trump everything else:

25% Max Lords (Including mounts)
25% Max Heroes
25% Min Core
50% Max Specials
25% Max Rare

You must take a minimum of 3 units, not including characters.
No 3 of the same type of Specials.
No 2 of the same type of Rares.
These numbers increase when games reach 3000 points.

With this in mind, let's go over and look at our unit choices in 8th Ed.

Core:
30x Spearmen with Full Command (5x6) = 295
30x Lothren Sea Guard with Full Command (10x3 to shoot, 5x6 to fight) = 415

How come no archers? Because I don't like archers. The only reason why I took archers last edition was to fill that 0-2 min core requirement. In 8th Ed, models with the ASF rule get to strike first before their opponents just like last Ed. In addition to this, if your Initiative is equal or higher than your opponent, you can re-roll to hit in all phases of combat. This is another reason archers died for me and Spearmen/LSG is in. Even though our Spears are 9ppm and our LSG are 13ppm, our Spears fight an in an extra rank more than normal spears thanks to Martial Prowess. This means that in a 5x6 formation of 30, you get 4 ranks of Spears to fight back and 10 extra bodies to pull. Since everything fights strictly in initiative order now, 21 S3 spear attacks at I5 with ASF and re-rolls to hit before most opponents strike is definitely something to write home about. The LSG pretty much function as both Spear and Archer and you definitely pay the points for it. You start off the game by shooting in 2 ranks + 5 (half of every other rank for Volley) for a total of 25 shots in a 10x3 formation. When the opponents get closer, you reform into a 5x6 "fighting spears" formation. Charging, not charging, it doesn't really matter, you always go by initiative and fight in 4 ranks of pointy goodness.

Specials:
20x Phoenix Guard with Full Command (5x4) = 330
20x White Lions with Full Command (5x4) = 330
11x Dragon Princes with Full Command (6x2) = 380
Lion Chariot, Sword Masters, Ellyrion Reavers

Now we before we start, there's a pretty serious discussion going on on various gaming forums about the ruling of Great Weapons in the new edition and High Elves' ASF. The rule in 8th basically says that if your unit has both a Great Weapon with Always Strike Last on a model with Always Strike First, then the two special rules (ASL/ASF) cancel eachother out and you strike at initiative. How does this work with the Speed of Asuryan rule that applies to all High Elves? The army book states that models with this rule have the Always Strike First rule regardless of what weapon they're carrying. Do High Elves completely ignore the ASL/ASF rule from the BRB and follow ASF regardless of what weapon they're using? For now, I'll go with the 8th Ed. rulebook and pretend that White Lions strike at normal I5.

First, Phoenix Guard and Dragon Princes got pretty amazing this edition. The reason why is because they're both I6 and using weapons that are not great weapons. Phoenix Guard will ASF in 2 ranks with re-rolls to hit. That's 11 hits at WS5 with re-rolls to hit. Take that new magic standard that gives the unit Armor Piercing and you've got yourself a fierce, durable unit that can stay in there because of their 4+ ward. If you really want to get fancy, throw in Korhil to add some killing power and make the unit Stubborn. Be careful though, with units being able to strike back always, Korhil will be a pretty big target for your opponent. Another good option for Phoenix Guard is the Banner of Arcane Protection. MR2 and 4+ ward stacks onto each other for the purposes of anti-magic missiles and direct damage for a lovely 2+ ward save.

If the slow killing power of Phoenix Guard isn't good enough for you, try some Dragon Princes. WS5, I6 and 2 attacks a piece at S5 and re-rolls guarantee things will die in combat when they hit. Since the riders in the back rank can also fight once they reach combat, the combat power of the unit goes up considerably. Let's say you have a BSB with a Lance in the unit of 11 (he's in the front) and charge a unit at speed 8 + 3d6 pick the highest 2. When you hit, you're hitting with 20 S5 (3 of them at S6) attacks that will strike first and re-roll to hit. If you have the Warbanner on your cavalry, and you should because cavalry can now charge through terrain with no penalty to speed, you're looking at +3 to combat res before the bodies start flying. Banner of Ellyrion is good.. and was a staple to most Dragon Prince builds in the past, but until they give them the 'Strider' rule or make it so they ignore terrain completely, I'll stick with the extra combat res.

Next, we have White Lions. Even with Great Weapons and no errata, they're still I5 WS5 Elves that have S6 weapons. Stubborn got hell of a lot better in 8th Ed. and the Woodsman rule will probably turn into Strider. The new Stubborn basically says that units with Stubborn are Steadfast regardless of ranks when making break tests. Steadfast is a new rule that allows units to use their normal leadership when taking break tests (this includes using the general's leadership). Another thing about White Lions is that since all units can fight in 2 ranks, 11 WS5 S6 attacks hitting you before you swing is going to hurt. A lot. If everything goes our way (the High Elf way), then we'll also have ASF and will get re-rolls to hit with Great Weapons. Until that is so, I'll take White Lions over Sword Masters any day. Whether you like it or not, the High Elf army simply can't afford to lose 15ppm infantry to something like Goblins because they can just step up and attack. The entire design of High Elves last edition was to use their superior speed and weapons to cut down enemies before they can strike back and maul them. In 8th Ed and the introduction to stepping up, Elves can still dish out damage, but they'll be taking a lot more damage in return. In terms of cost effectiveness, this doesn't go our way unless we win combat.

Just a quick blurb on Lion Chariots and Ellyrion Reavers. Chariots changed a good amount since last edition. S7 no longer instantly kills chariots and chariots no longer get slowed by difficult terrain. Instead, they now take dangerous terrain checks and if you roll a 1, you take D6 wounds with no armor saves. Regardless, the Lion Chariot is still dangerous. The White Lions are top are now S6 because mounted Great Weapons don't lose any of their deadliness and 4 WS5 S5 Lion attacks that cause Fear is still vicious as ever. Ellyrion Reavers can use Vanguard movement because they're fast cav and can reform any time during their movement. Vanguard basically allows them to make a Scout move in 40K in Fantasy. Before the game begins, they can go ahead and make a free 12+ move. You can possibly get a first turn charge if you so desired in some lucky cases. I probably won't do anything that extreme because I'll probably use them to setup a flank/rear charge.

Rares:
RBTs and Eagles.. what a selection!

I am no longer comfortable with RBTs. The reason why is because of these things: There's no more randomization when hitting warmachines and crew, anything can wound anything on a roll of 6 and our RBT only have 2 dudes. When someone aims at our RBTs, they simply aim at our warmachine and fire into it. Because we only have 2 dudes, the Warmachine only has 2 wounds at T7. If we get wounded twice by something like a S3 bow or something, our WM is dead, period. That kind of sucks.

Eagles are still good though! Being able to march block units and redirect charges, Eagles have always been pretty good for 50 points. Having an Eagle redirect the enemy by landing in front of them on an angle and forcing them to either charge you (you would flee) and expose their flank, or attempt to charge another target's too far away and fail. The thing about 8th is that when you want to charge a unit and it flees, you can opt to charge another target if you pass a leadership roll. If you place an Eagle right in front of a unit, he has to either go around or do one of those things above. Either one is not that great for your opponent, and that's what you need to do to make his life miserable. Another use for the Eagle is to use him to charge a fleeing unit. Say you have a big bad deathstar unit that's going to charge one of his units. He's not going to stay and get their teeth kicked in, he's going to run. As soon as they run, declare a charge with your Eagle at his fleeing unit. If you catch him, he's gone. Just like that.

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Last edited by HERO on Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:43 am 
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Quote:
Actually if I'm not mistaken the 7th Edition BRB doesn't say that you need to make the casting value to get IF as long as it's double 6s it's casted as IF. Only the book of hoeth has specify that you also need to make the casting value in order to get the any doubles to be an IF.


Read the section above Irresistable Force.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:45 am 
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Question: Does Magic Resistance protect against wounds from miscasts?

Question: Does the Loremaster's Cloak protect against wounds from miscasts? They are (indirectly) caused by spells, after all, and are not shooting or close combat attacks.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:58 am 
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I think a few of your tactics are a bit off, rules-wise.

Firstly, I was under the impression that you get one Step Up attack unless you're a monstrous beastie (Ogres etc). This means your unit of Dragon Princes would get 18 Attacks on the charge (assuming 6 in the front rank, 5 in the rear). Also, since when can cavalry charge through terrain without penalty? I thought you had to make a difficult terrain check (a 1-and-you're-dead sort of check).

Also, when you're trying to catch a fleeing enemy unit, the unit gets to make one last Leadership check. If it fails it is indeed wiped out, if it passes it gets to turn round and fight you. Not so fun. :(

Other than that it looks good, keep up the good work. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:28 am 
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HERO wrote:
Quote:
Actually if I'm not mistaken the 7th Edition BRB doesn't say that you need to make the casting value to get IF as long as it's double 6s it's casted as IF. Only the book of hoeth has specify that you also need to make the casting value in order to get the any doubles to be an IF.


Read the section above Irresistable Force.


And yet in the IF section it says that "any result of two or more unmodified 6s means that the spell has been cast with IF" So therefore you don't have to make the casting value in order to cast the spell.

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pk-ng wrote:
HERO wrote:
Quote:
Actually if I'm not mistaken the 7th Edition BRB doesn't say that you need to make the casting value to get IF as long as it's double 6s it's casted as IF. Only the book of hoeth has specify that you also need to make the casting value in order to get the any doubles to be an IF.


Read the section above Irresistable Force.


And yet in the IF section it says that "any result of two or more unmodified 6s means that the spell has been cast with IF" So therefore you don't have to make the casting value in order to cast the spell.


I don't have my BRB with me atm :(

But either way, this is NOT the thread for this. If you're so concerned about it, go ask in the rules section.

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Pash wrote:
I think a few of your tactics are a bit off, rules-wise.

Firstly, I was under the impression that you get one Step Up attack unless you're a monstrous beastie (Ogres etc). This means your unit of Dragon Princes would get 18 Attacks on the charge (assuming 6 in the front rank, 5 in the rear). Also, since when can cavalry charge through terrain without penalty? I thought you had to make a difficult terrain check (a 1-and-you're-dead sort of check).

Also, when you're trying to catch a fleeing enemy unit, the unit gets to make one last Leadership check. If it fails it is indeed wiped out, if it passes it gets to turn round and fight you. Not so fun. :(

Other than that it looks good, keep up the good work. :)


Let's see now. I was pretending we had a Noble in there as a BSB. That would mean 3 attacks from him, 3 attacks from the Champ, 8 from the other DPs, and 6 more from the back. So it looks like the result would be 20, not 22 :D I'll go fix that.

Cavalry charging through terrain, I specifically mentioned no speed penalty, but yes, you do difficult terrain check.

As for catching a fleeing unit, I didn't see the part in the rulebook that says he gets to immediately make a ld. check and turn around. I was under the impression that fleeing units caught are immediately destroyed. Someone double check?

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Lathaon wrote:
Question: Does Magic Resistance protect against wounds from miscasts?

Question: Does the Loremaster's Cloak protect against wounds from miscasts? They are (indirectly) caused by spells, after all, and are not shooting or close combat attacks.


First answer is No. MR only effects direct damage and magic missiles.

Second is: I have no idea lol. It says wounds caused by spells.. so I guess you can argue it.

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Has anyone else thought about using level 2 mage with silver wand? Costing 145 points it won't take much from your army but still has pretty good chance to get a spell he wants. And he will be used as follows...

Beast lore with it's sixth spell that turns caster into something big appealed me. After rolling for winds of magic you cast the transformation spell with every dice you got trying to get irresistible force. This might end up getting your puny mage getting killed but if not he becomes a frikking 8-statline dragon with asf if stories are to be believed that caster retains his special rules.

Thoughts?

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Jukkis wrote:
Has anyone else thought about using level 2 mage with silver wand? Costing 145 points it won't take much from your army but still has pretty good chance to get a spell he wants. And he will be used as follows...

Beast lore with it's sixth spell that turns caster into something big appealed me. After rolling for winds of magic you cast the transformation spell with every dice you got trying to get irresistible force. This might end up getting your puny mage getting killed but if not he becomes a frikking 8-statline dragon with asf if stories are to be believed that caster retains his special rules.

Thoughts?


I personally prefer the Mountain Chimera version. 4D6 S7 WS7 attacks with re-rolls - yes please!

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Meh, im not so fussed on these Monster Mages - ok, they can do some awesome damage like that, but so can my mage who casts spells AND can buff my own units, increasing their damage, their survivability or even bringing them back from the dead.

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Wrote a Magic section today.

It's really long. Here's the link:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high ... magic.html

Covers 3 main lores for now.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:42 am 
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an interesting read as always,
can't wait for you to do the other lores,
I think you made a mistake with the 6th spell of life tough, the description speaks of a S test but your comments are about T

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HERO wrote:
Wrote a Magic section today.

It's really long. Here's the link:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high ... magic.html

Covers 3 main lores for now.


Great stuff Hero.
I was thinking of just running a Lvl 4 Archmage in my list and dropping my Lvl1 to get more troops.
Now im not so sure
With some really nice buffs/debuffs that will benefit units so much the mage with Seestaff seems so tempting.

The ability to max out on one lore with the AM and then cherry pick a specific spell from another could be too good to miss


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Ok this might be long but here are the lores of magic (subject to spelling/translation mistakes) maybe some differences to the exact rule book but that will be down to translation. Also havent got the Hex, buff etc etc:

Fire

Special rule:

Kind flame
all attacks are flaming. +d3 to cast a magic missile or direct damage spell against target a already hit by fire lore.

0: Fireball - (Basic Spell)
D6 S4, 24" 5+
2d6 S4, 10+
3d6 S4, 18+

1: Cascading fire cloak

Remains in play.
Casts on the caster and unit.
All enemy models in Base to base contact take 2d6 S4. 5+

2: Flaming Sword
Range 24". One ally recieves +1 to wound and magical flaming attacks: 6+
Range 48" on 11+

3: Burning head
Measure and 18" line from the caster. every model hit takes S4 and must take a panic test: 10+
36" line on 13+

4: Piercing bolts of burning
24" Range. Unit takes D3 S4 hits per rank of 5+ models: 10+
48" Range at 13+

5: Fulminating flame cage
24" Range. Units take d6 S4 hits. If ay model in the unit moves all models take a further S4 Hit. Ends at the start of the caster’s next magic phase: 10+
Range 48" for a 14+

6: Flame storm
Small round template is placed within 30" of the caster. Roll the scatter dice and 1d6 and move the template. Anyone touched by the template takes a S4 hit. 13+
The template is large and scatters 2d6: 16+



Beasts

Special Rule:

Wild heart
The difficulty to cast beast spells is reduced by one when casting on war beasts, cavalry, monstrous beasts, monstrous cavalry, chariots, monsters, swarms or any model from the Beastmen book.

0: Wyssan's wild form - (Basic Spell)
12" range. Target unit gets +1S and +1T until start of the casters next magic phase:10+
24’’ range: 13+

1: Flock of Doom
25’’ range. Unit takes 2d6 S2: 5+
48’’ range on 8+

2: Pann's Impenetrable Pelt
Select a friendly character within 12". Character receives +3T until start of the casters next magic phase: 8+
All Friendly characters within 12" on 16+

3: Amber Spear
24’’ range. Target unit/model takes S6 hit d3 wounds like a bolt thrower. 9+
S10 bolt that does d6 wounds on a 15+

4: Curse of Anraheir
Target enemy unit within 36" suffers -1 to hit in shooting and CC until start of next caster magic phase. All terrain is dangerous on a 1-2 instead of just 1. 10+ (d6 when you move across, on a 1 take a wound with no AS)
72" range for 13+

5: Savage beast of Horros
Selected a friendly character within 12" gets +3S/A until start of next magic phase: 10+
All friendly characters within 12" on 20+

6: transformation of kadon
Remains in play. Caster can transform into a creature of legend.
Transform into a feral manticore, black hydra, or horned dragon: 16+
mountain chimera or great fire dragon: 20+
Wounds are migrated between models. Casters special rules apply but can no longer cast/dispel spells and magic items no longer work.
(ie a Arch mage will receive ASF as a dragon, but no items/+1 to dispel)


lore of metal

Special Rule:

Metal shifting
All to wound rolls are at the targets unmodified armour save (ie +2 armour save + 2+ to wound)
Lore of metal spells allow no AS. All spells have the flaming attack rule
Lore of metal cannot wound targets with no AS.

0: searing doom -(Basic Spell)
Range 24’’. D6hits 10+
2d6 at 20+

1: plague of rust
24” range. Select a target enemy. Target suffers -1 AS for the rest of the game. Accumulative: 7+
48” range on 10+

2: enchanted blades of aiban
24" Range. A friendly unit gets +1 to hit and has magical AP attacks, until start of the casters next turn: 9+
48" range on 12+

3: glittering robe
12" range.
Target unit gains scaly skin 5+ until the start of the casters next turn: 9+
All friendly units within 12" for 16+
Stacks to armour to a to a max of +1 AS. (ie heavy armour goes from 5+ to 3+)

4: gehenna's golden hounds
12" Range. One model takes d6 hits, can single out target 9+
24" range for 12+

5: transmutation of lead
24” range. Target unit suffers -1 to WS, BS and AS until the start of the casters next turn: 12+
48" on 15+

6: final transmutation
18" range. Target 1 enemy unit. The model turns to gold on a 5+, if the target has multi wounds then only on a 6+,
Every enemy within 12" of the effected unit must test for stupid next turn: 15+
36" range on 18+



lore of light

Special rules:

exorcism
Demons and undead take an extra d6 hits.

0: shem's burning gaze- (Basic Spell)
Range 24”. Target takes d6 S4 hits. Flaming attacks: 5+
48" range and S6 on 15+

1: pha's protection
24" Range. Cast on a friendly unit. All hits in hand to hand combat/shooting are at -1 to hit against the unit. Non-BS shooting needs to roll a 4+ to shoot at the unit: 6+
All friendly units within 12": 12+

2: speed of light
24" range. Friendly unit gets WS10 and I10 until the start of the casters next magic phase: 8+
All friendly units within 12" get it on a 16+

3: light of battle
12" range. Cast on a friendly unit. Fleeing target rallies and passes all ld test until the start of the casters next magic phase: 9+
All within 12" on an 18+

4: net of amyntok
24" Range. Target must pass S test to move, shoot or to cast spells. If they fail the model cannot do it ad takes d6 S4 hits. 10+
48" range on 13+

5: banishment
24" range. Target takes 2d6 hits at S4 + the level of lore of light caster. Also all friendly models within 12" of caster, not counting himself, can re-roll successful wards: 10+
48" range on a 13+

6: birona's time warp
12" range. Target unit has double movement, +1 A and ASF until the start of the casters next magic phase: 12+
All friendly units within 12" for 24+


lore of life

Special Rule:

Life Bloom
any successful cast restores 1 wound to a model within 12" of wizard

0: earth blood- (Basic Spell)
The Wizard and unit if he is I one gets regen (5+) until the start of the casters next magic phase: 8+

1: awakening of the wood
18" range. Target unit takes D6 S4 hits. 2d6 if in a wood: 6+

2: flesh to stone
24" range. Friendly unit gets +2T until the start of the casters next magic phase: 8+

3: throne of vines
Effects all Lore of life spells until the start of the casters next magic phase.
The Spell is cast on the mage and allows you to ignore the effects of miscasts on 2+
Spells are effected as following:
earth blood is 4+ Regen
awakening is now S6
flesh to stone is at +4T
re-growth restores d6+1 models
shield of thorns is at S4

4: shield of thorns
Remains in play
24" Range. Enemies in Base to base with target unit take 2d6 s3 at end of each magic phase: 9+

5: re-growth
24" Range. Target Friendly unit has d3+1 wounds of models restored: 12+
48" range on 15+

6: the dwellers below
12" Range. Every model in the target unit takes a S test or dies. No Armour saves allowed: 18+
24" on 21+


lore of heavens


Special rule:

Roiling Skies
Any spell targeting a flying model takes D6 S4 in addition to spell effects.

0: ice shard blizzard- (Basic Spell)
24" range. -1 to all rolls to hits (target unit is hexed)
Non BS weapons must roll a 4+ to be able to shoot: 7+

1: harmonic convergence-
24" Range.
Friendly target can re-roll all to hits/wound and AS is increased by 1: 6+
All within 12" on 12+

2: wind blast
24" range. Target an enemy unit. It is pushed d3+1" away from the caster.
If it hits impassable terrain takes d6 s3 hits: 7+
D6+2" on 14+
If the unit hits another the both units take damage.

3: curse of the midnight wind
24" range. Enemy target must re-roll 6’s to hit to wound and all AS until the start of the casters next magic phase: 10+
All enemies within 12" on 20+

4: urannon's thunderbolt-
24" Range. Target takes d6 S6: 10+
48" on 13+

5: comet of Cassandra
Fix a point anywhere on the table.
Roll a d6 at the start of each magic phase.
1-3 add a counter
4-6 it lands
2d6" from impact point struck. Anyone in the area of effect takes 2d6 hits +1 per marker at S4+1 per marker. This cannot be dispelled once cast: 12+
Start with 2 counters and 2 counters added per turn on 24+

6: chain lightning- 15+,
24" Range. Target takes d6 s6 hits. After you have resolved these hits roll a roll d6. On a roll of a 3+ it jumps to one unit within 6". This keeps jumping on 3+, can't hit anyone more than once


lore of shadow

Special:

Smoke and Mirrors
After any spell resolution, the casting wizard can swap places with character of same troop type and same side within 18".

0: melkoth's mystifying miasma - (Basic Spell)
48" range. Enemy target's BS, WS, I or M (pick one) is reduced by 3 until the start of the casters next magic phase: 5+
All four affected on a 10+

1: steed of shadows
One character within 12", immediately flies (10"): 5+

2: enfeebling foe
Remains in play
18" range. Enemy target unit has S reduced by d3: 10+
36" on 13+

3: withering
Remains in play.
18" Range. Enemy target unit had -d3 T: 13+
36" on 16+

4: penumbral pendulum
6d6" line away from the caster. Each model hit must pass an I test or takes a S10 hit that does d3 wounds: 13+
Double distance for 18+

5: pit of shades
Range 24". Place a small template and scatters it d6". Anyone touched must take an I test or dies (no AS): 14+
Big template and scatters 2d6: 17+

6: okkam's mind razor
18" Range. Target one friendly unit until the start of the casters next magic phase. The unit uses it’s Ld instead of S when rolling to wound: 18+
36" on 21+


lore of death

Special rule:

Life Leeching
For each unsaved wound a death spell has caused, roll a d6.
For each 5 or 6 add an additional die

0: spirit leech-(Basic Spell)
Target a single enemy within 12".
Both caster and target roll d6 and add there own Ld. For each point the caster wins by target enemy suffers 1 wound with no AS: 7+
24" range for 10+

1: aspect of the dread knight
24" Range. Friendly target now causes fear: 4+
Causes terror on 9+

2: caress of laniph
12" range. Target single model takes 2d6 minus their strength hits. All hits wound on a 4+ with no AS: 6+
24" on 12+

3: soul blight
24" range. Target enemy unit takes -1S and -1T: 9+
All enemies within 24" on 18+

4: doom and darkness
Remains in play.
24" range. Target unit has -3 Ld: 10+
48" on 13+

5: fate of bjuna
12" range. A single model must take 2d6 minus their T hits that wound on 2+ with no AS. Take suffers from stupidity for rest of game. 13+

6: purple sun of xereus-
Remains in play.
Place a small template on the board. The template moves artillery dice x3 inches in a direction of choice.
Anyone touched takes I test or die.
If a misfire is rolled, centre the template on the caster and scatter d6" using the small arrow in case of a hit roll.
In subsequent turns it moves artillery die inches in a scatter direction, misfire it collapses, 15+
large template on a 25+

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:35 pm 
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I'll still be taking seer on the lvl4. In my opinion I can't afford to not get the exact 4 spells I want, especially because with banner of sorcery I'll likely run out of spells before dice. I was considering staff of solidity, but the loss of control chart isnt all that bad. I'll bunker him with PG, so the only thing I don't like is the 2-4 or 10-12 result, and even those can be mostly mitigated if you roll a decent d3.

I can't really decide on a magic lore because every where I look the lores have been written differently? I need the exact lores to be sure. If they're written like they are in the post above me I think I might go with light. 1,2,5,6

All lores are useful, but I think light may be the one that is the most flexible. its default is small flaming nuke that can hopefully get rid of regen.

the 1 spell is great defense in combat and against shooting. The AOE effect is easily cast on 12+ (-4). Basically we're getting hit on 4s from elites/heros and 5s from normal stuff. Against those nasty new stone throwers/artillery machines we'll cut their effectiveness by 1/2 to the main battleline and also -1 from missile troops. Sounds good to me!

the 2 spell is alright, the I10 not so useful (unless fighting other elves) but the ws10 means also 5+ to get hit by most stuff. couple that with 1 spell aoe and stuff is hitting you on 6s, or 5s if hero. AOE casting cost doesnt seem worth it unless you have the dice.

the 5 spell is maybe the best 2d6 nuke in all the lores. 2d6 st8. 48inch range for only 13+ is great too. and reroll wards too? Hopefully the translation on this one is right.

the 6 spell is a great buff. ok, asf is redundant but the movement or +1 A can be worth it. 12+ is not so bad. Its a great antigunline spell too, in conjunction with the 1 spell.

So in those 5 spells you have all you need. protection vs combat and shooting, great damage nuke, regen cancellation, ws, attack and I buffs, movement buffs. Many people like the T or armor save buffs but really you only have to choke off 1 of the rolls (to hit, to wound or armor) to make your units survivable. A unit of PG fully buffed get hit on 5/6s, have rerollable 4+ ward and 2A.

oh...and bonus damage against undead and daemons! So unless the lore of light descriptions in the above post are inaccurate I'll be taking those 4 spells.

Lvl 4, New Mundame 4+ Ward Save, Seer Staff, Lore of Light
Noble, BSB, GW, DA, Banner of Sorcery


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Magic Defense might not require additional items. Even if I were to buy a mage with annulian crystal its a decent dice swing but perhaps not worth the infantry models that can be bought with it. How much will that item save? Will it save its worth of models? Also you have to factor out the armies that dont have heavy magic or that pick lores that you can get away with. Now this ties into what troops we take as well. If we load up on big chunky blocks of 20+ lions/swords, we're really just asking them to get blown away with big area of affect magic, machine templates and being a general point sink because they can't really get engaged with super units of other armies that would trounce them. But thats something that needs more thought.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:42 pm 
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ilmrik II wrote:
an interesting read as always,
can't wait for you to do the other lores,
I think you made a mistake with the 6th spell of life tough, the description speaks of a S test but your comments are about T


Yah, oops :-D
Just a minor mistake. I actually said strength test, yet I wrote T3.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:46 pm 
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Quote:
the 5 spell is maybe the best 2d6 nuke in all the lores. 2d6 st8. 48inch range for only 13+ is great too. and reroll wards too? Hopefully the translation on this one is right.


Translation is wrong.

The spell is called Banishment. It's 2d6 S4, but against undead/demons, its 3D6 S4 + 1 more strength for each wizard nearby that have the Lore of Light.

It's 3d6 instead of 2d6 because of the Attribute from the Light lore, that give them an extra d6 on all their attacks vs demons/undead.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:54 pm 
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BOOO!

not sure which magic lore is worth taking now.

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Lord Anathir wrote:
BOOO!

not sure which magic lore is worth taking now.


http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high ... magic.html

I will probably do 3 more lores of Magic later today. Stay tuned :-)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:29 pm 
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I've already read all your stuff, most of it makes sense.

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Lord Anathir wrote:
I've already read all your stuff, most of it makes sense.


Will probably do Death, Light and Beast next. Heavens and Fire are mediocre, and I don't know how our High Magic will change with the new errata/cards.

And we all know how High Magic effects our army :)

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