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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:30 am 
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Obviously having a unit of 50 Seaguard is epic just for the masses of attacks in shooting and combat, but that's one hell of a points sink in a 2k game (w/ shields that's 13 points a model, then Full Command (costing 25 points total) = a unit for 675 points! or spearmen for 475 points).

Now with the new rules stating that all close combat is done in initiative order that above horde is gonna kill a lot of equivalent core troops first up. BUT 8th edition rules also mean that you will never kill enough enemy models (unless you get some freak dice rolls) to stop them from killing a few seaguard back.

Due to High Elves' high WS4 and our ability to fight in an extra rank, a 'normal' opponent (e.g. clanrat w/ spear WS3 S3 T3 As 5+) will kill less of us back but is also unlikely to break and run (due to similar 'horde' massed ranks etc.), thus creating a meat grinder where our elves must kill 2 to 3 enemies per wound in return to be worth their points cost. Not good for expensive elves! (Also in a 2k army you'll only take 1 horde unit like this so you can get in some cool stuff like swordmasters etc. and vs. almost anyone your opponent will be able to afford more of these massive units to cause havoc elsewhere!).

SO (finally getting to the point haha!) wouldn't it be better to take a standard 20 strong regiment which will be able to dish out all of it's own attacks while limiting the opposing horde to half it's own because it can't get enough models into base contact! Plus allowing us to buy another 20 man unit for flank charges/whatever you want!

This does depend on the interpretation of whether ranks behind models only in corner to corner still get to attack or not - could anyone clarify that for me?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:52 am 
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Attrition should never be the primary strategy of High Elves, except as a last resort; I think if used as bait, in order to persuade your opponent to commit his forces at one particular point. While a battle of attrition can be viable, by our makeup we cannot permit it to become protracted.

Also, with a minimum Core component, why not have one unit that is hordeish?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:06 pm 
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What is the core requirement? Other than 25%, is there a minimum number of units?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:17 pm 
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No minimum core units, you can have just one big unit if you like.

I don't think horde will be useful at all with few exceptions. Especially not for High Elf units. Probably the only unit I'd consider fielding as a horde would be Dark Elf spearmen, as they're so cheap.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Stormie wrote:
No minimum core units, you can have just one big unit if you like.

I don't think horde will be useful at all with few exceptions. Especially not for High Elf units. Probably the only unit I'd consider fielding as a horde would be Dark Elf spearmen, as they're so cheap.

I think there is also a minimum of 3 units you have to field.

As to hordes, it greatly depends on the army. For elves I don't realy see it happening. The unit will be way to expensive. 50 LSG in one unit have a big shoot me sign painted on their shields. Template weapons will be devastating. And I think there will be lots of those. No more slots means no restrictions (except %) on cheap warmachines. My guess is the unit will die very fast.

For horde armies with access to cheap troops, yes, we will see a lot of them. A unit of skaven slaves (2pts?) can easily have 50 or 60 models and is a great tarpit for anything foolish enough to get in the way. Remember, against small units they are stuborn on their generals leadership. And they get an awfull amount of attacks back, especially against low armoured T3 elves.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:35 pm 
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Horde is not a rule I'd suggest for the Asur. Much better to have 2 units of 20-25 rather thana single unit of 40-50. Not exactly MSU but basic philosophy works the same. Opponents will be worried about losing their ranks or stubborn and 5 wide limits any opponents Horde advantages due to the frontage differences


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:25 pm 
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I think that Elven armies are going to have to load up a flank and quickly collapse a few enemy units to really be able to handle a horde opponent. A 25-strong LSG or Spear unit, with Chariots, focused missile fire or combat characters for support, will need to go in, generate kills, obtain higher flanks, and quickly destroy a horde unit before moving on to the next one. I think that reducing big horde opponents below critical strength, using a Core ranked High Elf regiment and focused killing power, will be the way to slow down hordes. Elite infantry, such as Swordmasters or White Lions, will be great at winning combats through massive kills but will rarely be decisive since the enemy can easily maintain their Stubbornn. I think we may actually see supported Core units becoming the linebreakers, since they can obtain rank bonuses and work in synergy with fast-moving cavalry troops, while elite regiments will slow down the horde and tie up enemy elements while the flank is turned.

I think the one hybrid choice here will be Phoenix Guard; they're durable enough to preserve the points invested in them for rank bonus, and hit respectably hard enough to deplete a horde unit. I think they could fulfill either capacity as a linebreaking rank-mobile or an anti-horde roadblock.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:07 am 
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Thanks guys, definitely confirming that 2 units of 20-25 core troops (spearmen/seaguard) is definitely better than 1 horde size unit.

As for the minimum 3 unit rule, that is for all units. You don't have to have a minimum of 3 core units. It's just a rule to make sure people don't abuse the ability to take lord choices in lower points games (e.g. 1 lord 250pts, 2 heroes 250pts and 40 seaguard ~500 in a 1000 points match could be possible with the new percentage composition system but the 3 unit rule stops this.)

Now just gotta decide on what regiments best to support 2 x 20 Seaguard, and what magic lore to take -

Heavens could be useful for the Wind Blast spell, pushing enemy units around the table will definitely help our units get to the right place at the right time.

Life - heal 1 wound per spell! Throne of Vines + Regrowth = d6 + 1 elves resurrected (try and shoot my swordmasters grrrr!)

Death - never ending magic phases! Kill more, get more dice, kill more, get more dice mwahahahahaha!

Shadow - Pit of Shades, testing against I = lizardman death!

Beasts - take Radiant Gem of Hoeth on a Prince, so then you can take Seerstaff on him and transform your T3 elf into a Chimera with up to 24 S7 attacks or at worst a hydra with regen! And still have points left for an archmage with annulian stone at 2k pts!

Decisions, decisions....


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:13 am 
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I forgot Light!

Net of Amyntok = Strength test every time a unit wants to do something (e.g. move, shoot etc.) and if they fail D6 S4 hits and they can't do the action! Actually much better vs. horde style armies than the Heavens' "Wind Blast".

No wonder GW are limiting total power dice to 12 at any 1 time, I want to take as many mages as I bloody well can!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:30 pm 
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From what i've seen horde units of lotherns and spearelves seem viable. Seeing as other armies will have very wide ranks but crap attacks (assuming clanrat style hordes) having small ranks just gives us less attacks. And if you can get off the spell that gives strength=LD then one unit of Lotherns stands and shoots 35 shots then strikes with 51 attacks at WS 4 with rerolls and strength 8. Nothing can cope with that. I give them the lion standard so they are immune to fear and terror, and there ranks make them stubborn against allot of units, especially after coping an average of about 30 wounds with no armour saves unless they have a 1+save. add some flank charges from swordmasters and whitelions after they have become bogged down in the lotherns and you have pure win.

Take 4 bolthrowers (in over 3000 i think) and eliminate things that can template them, and have good magic defence to keep them alive.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:23 pm 
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Immune to fear and terror isn't that important in that situation as it's just a leadership test each round. And stubborn is only if you have MORE RANKS then your oppoent. So don't go all crazy. Also war machines esp template weapons have gotta alot stronger now.... imagine a treb hitting your spearmen in the middle. GG that'll be 25+ models on str 5? gl with that...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Well a treb is str3 and allows armor saves now. I plague mortar on the other hand is very deadly, firing a large template, ignoring armor but wounding on 5's.

I think deploying as a horde is a mistake and falling into the hands of the enemy. Why bother having an expanded frontage unless your going to go 4x10 which is a hell of a lot of points. I have been going with 5x5, giving me a rank of extra bodies, and 21 attacks. This means there is only 22 attacks coming back at you assuming they are deployed as a horde. I win the turn they charge, then in my turn I charge a chariot or dragon prince unit into there flank and and bam they lose to many guys to keep there ranks, and now I have more ranks then them and they break. I did this twice versus Skaven yesterday and I didn't even use any magic to augment my spears (which were killing 14 a turn)

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