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High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition
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Author:  Aethyr [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

With 8th creeping closer, some people have voiced there disdain at the high elves gain of the ASF+higher initiative=rerolls to hit.

A thread was created over at warseer about the rule, and it quickly developed into a high elves vs dark elves discussion.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261098

with that and the other rules floating around for 8th I'd like to ask what sort of ideas some of our valiant asur generals would like to put forward.

I know each has their own ideas, some magic heavy, some shooting, others like myself like to play aggressive with a lot of cc.

I also know without the full book and errata we only have half the picture, but I think it's half enough to get started.

Author:  Pash [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

I think that Dark Elves will be our toughest match-up in 8th Ed. Our special rule does little against most of their infantry and there are only a few things with higher initiative than the average elf (Phoenix Guard come to mind, perhaps others). On the plus side, of White Lions should be able to munch on their Hydra and Cold One riders so there's a silver lining there perhaps.

Still, this is all considering that the rumours are all true and that the errata won't have anything much to do with changes to rules and only tweaks them. Only time will tell..

Author:  Stormie [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

All objective reasoning on that thread points to High Elves not getting much of a boost from this, as is correct. I find the arguments of one particular poster quite ill-informed, he seems to have decided a position and then decided to argue it to the death regardless of them pesky "fact" things. As an example he has stated repeatedly that High Elve are better armoured than Dark Elves. How true?
-Archers = no armour/light armour, Crossbowmen = light armour, and can buy shields
-Spearmen on each side are basically identical
-Corsairs = 4+/5+ armour saves, sorta the reverse of Seaguard
-Dark Riders and Reavers get 5+ armour
-Elite infantry, all get heavy armour, except Phoenix Guard which get 4+ save as wel
-Shadow Warriors get 6+ armour, Shades do not (woop woop)
-Heavy cav is the same
-Dark Elf characters can all buy Sea Dragon Cloaks for bonus saves, though High Elf characters can be made immune to flaming attacks.

Difference being of course the Dark Elves pay much less for their troops than High Elves, so even if the lie that High Elves have far better saves were true, it's paid for. Silly whiners.

Author:  Aethyr [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

Combined Arms will most likely be our best bet.
I foresee LSG (doesnt take a genius) playing a major role. Shooting will help us remove a few casualties from the back, much like it did 'knocking off a rank of CR' though now will hopefully lessen the attacks back once the clash of close combat commences. Especially useful vs Dark Elves as we know full well how painful shooting can be.

Magic has never been too much of a weak spot for us, and perhaps with some of the suggestions of magic having a lot of buffs, it will be somthing Im sure we will be able to wield with expertise(dice rolls permitting).

With their monsters being slightly easier for us to deal with(well maybe, depending on destroy/crush them and breath weapons are obviously somthing to fear) due to stubborn, stepping up and fighting in two ranks. Our monsters may fair better being able to get off flank charges(being flyers and all) and i know ill at least try Eltharion in one battle (mage/warrior and Destroy Them! from Stormwing? yes please).


Our cavalry has an edge over the Druchii though how cavalry fair in 8th is still uncertain.

Author:  Pskyrunner [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

im not much of a fan of LSG, even in 8th edition..

1. very expensive.. just 2 points less than our elite
2. just bow not longbow.. (with longbow they would be a hit)
3. its still just S3 WS 4 (CC) even against darkelves (maybe u can up this with some buffspells)

concerning LSG vs. DE: If think many ppl playing DE will just field ALOT of rbxs men to cover their core % costs in a 2250 game there would be like 50 24" S4 shots.. gunline

only chance to kill them without having some rounds being shot at and later on after marching (and not being able to shot) getting into CC (stand and shoot), would be shooting with our longbows and gain at least 1 free round of really good concentrated fire with 40+ 30" archers, they cost less than LSG and can kill fast, and stay out of range

that said i dont expect seeing much LSG, from time to time ill play them too but still would rather invest into archers only

i did math with LSG and normal Spears.. both of them loose against weak opponents which everyone would think to kill easily with so many attacks

Author:  orka [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

Which weak opponents?

Rxb is S3 AP.

Author:  pk-ng [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

My personal opinion is that LSG would be a force to reckon with and I've talked to alot of the top HE generals over here in Australia and they all agree that they would field it as well. I know alot of people don't fancy it because a) it's only S3 attacks and 24" bows. Before we do some maths-hammer if same initative who attacks first? ASF? roll off?
Assuming we vs'ing basic RnF troops and they charging us. Shooting will always be 16 shots for the purpose of maths-hammer.

25 LSG FC (5x5) = 350 points

vs 48x DE Spearmen FC [/w shields] (10 x 5) = 351 points

vs 56x Orc Boyz FC [/w shields] (10x6) = 348 points
Shooting – hitting on 4s wounding on 5s. 2 dead

Round 1 CC
21 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 5s. 5 wounded 4 killed.
Attacks back - 18 attacks hitting on 4s wounding 3s. 6 wounded 5 killed
Combat res – LSG lose by 2! Ld 6!
LSG = 20 (5x4)
Orc = 50 (10 x 5)

Round 2 CC
We attack - 21 attacks. 5 wounded 4 killed.
Attacks back – 18 attacks. 5 wounded 4 killed.
Combat res – LSG lose by 1 Ld 7!
LSG = 16 (5x4)
Orc = 46 (10x5)

So against Orc Boyz we might not survive a charge!

vs 74x Night Goblins FC [/w Spears + nets] (10x8) = 351 points
Shooting – hitting on 4s wounding on 4s. 3 dead

Round 1 CC
21 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 4s. 7 wounded. 5 killed.
Attacks back - 17 attacks hitting on 4s wounding 4s. 4 wounded. 3 killed
Combat res – LSG win by 3. Stubborn Ld 5!
LSG = 21 (5x5)
NG = 65 (10x7)

Round 2 CC
We attack - 21 attacks. 7 wounded 5 killed.
Attacks back – 24 attacks. 6 wounded 4 killed.
Combat res – Drawn combat
LSG = 16 (5x4)
NG = 60 (10x6)

Round 3 CC
We attack - 18 attacks. 6 wounded 4 killed
Attacks back – 25 attacks. 6 wounded 4 killed.
Combat res – LSG lose by 2 Ld 6!
LSG = 12 (5x3)
NG = 54 (10x6)

Round 4 CC
We attack – 13 attacks. 5 wounded 4 killed
Attacks back – 25 attacks. 6 wounded 4 killed
Combat res – LSG lose by 3 taking Ld roll of 5.
LSG = 8 (5x3)
NG = 50 (10x5)

So after 3 rounds of CC LSG is screwed! But can break the NG on the charge!

vs 65x Men at Arms FC [/w Spears] (10x7) = 352 points
Shooting – hitting on 4s wounding on 4s. 3 dead

Round 1 CC
21 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 4s. 7 wounded. 5 killed.
Attacks back - 17 attacks hitting on 4s wounding 4s. 4 wounded 3 killed
Combat res – LSG win by 3. Men at arms stubborn on Ld 7 (assuming Knights are nearby)
LSG = 21 (5x5)
M@A = 56 (10 x 6)

Round 2 CC
We attack - 21 attacks. 7 wounded 5 killed.
Attacks back – 24 attacks. 6 wounded 4 killed.
Combat res – Drawn Combat
LSG = 17 (5x4)
M@A = 51 (10x6)

Round 3 CC
We attack - 18 attacks. 6 wounded 4 killed
Attacks back – 25 attacks. 6 wounded 4 killed.
Combat res – LSG lose by 2! Ld 6!
LSG = 13 (5x4)
M@A = 47 (10x5)

Round 4 CC
We attack – 14 attacks. 5 wounded 4 killed
Attacks back – 25 attacks. 6 wounded 4 killed
Combat res – LSG lose by 3 taking Ld roll of 5.
LSG = 9 (5x3)
M@A = 42 (10x5)

So after 3 rounds of CC LSG is screwed!

Author:  HERO [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

Quote:
My personal opinion is that LSG would be a force to reckon with and I've talked to alot of the top HE generals over here in Australia and they all agree that they would field it as well.


Your top generals are missing the fact that they're 2 points less than our Specials for a 1W T3 Elf.

350 points into a unit of LSG that will shoot into 1 unit per turn vs the many many horde armies that'll put multiple large units on the field.

Not worth it man.. not worth it. 350 points is almost 2 units of full 20-man Spears. Find the points for that instead.

Author:  pk-ng [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

HERO wrote:
Quote:
My personal opinion is that LSG would be a force to reckon with and I've talked to alot of the top HE generals over here in Australia and they all agree that they would field it as well.


Your top generals are missing the fact that they're 2 points less than our Specials for a 1W T3 Elf.

350 points into a unit of LSG that will shoot into 1 unit per turn vs the many many horde armies that'll put multiple large units on the field.

Not worth it man.. not worth it. 350 points is almost 2 units of full 20-man Spears. Find the points for that instead.


You have to have 563 points of core units in a 2250 game.

With 25 LSG you can bring alot 20 Archers (or 2x 10 Archers). Which fits nicely for core choices. That's 2 - 3 deployments and 20 shots 30" and 16 shot at 24".

Which can help soften targets up quite a bit!

Author:  orka [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

Anyone thought about this as core:

2x 30 Spearmen FC, possibly Warbanner

Author:  WarpPhoenix [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

I would agree that LSG is a good choice. Spearmen can be nice but that means I lose my archers because if I went spearmen i would go full on. And too many times have my archers killed more than they're worth. LSG are only 2 points more than archers so I would gladly use them as a firing only unit that stays all the way back and just fires. Some of the movement changes support their deployment too.

At the moment I am planning on taking a 28 man unit of LASG gurd (for 7x4) with FC and a warbanner for the low low cost of 409 points, its a lot but its a unit that can pump out 20 shots (24 if salvo firing) a turn then fight in 4 ranks, making most things not really want to charge it. And if they do then chances are that the only thing that is going to outnumer them wont be able to beat them in combat with kills, such as horde unit of clan rats. If you really wanted to be annoying you could stick a hero in there with loremasters cloak and his own longbow just to be funny. 2+ ward save against all spells for the whole unit? Why not?! Plus a large unit of sea guard would finally make me feel like im playing some kind of "normal" HE army.

Now thats not all of course, at 3000 points I would take two of these units as my core and in 2k-2250 I would probably just take those guys and a unit of archers.

I REALLY dislike spearmen.

Author:  Angel [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

I still want to see the new models before I decide, but at the moment I'm leaning towards one unit of each.
Since I don't have that much money I'm not sure that I'll be buying lots of sea gurads when I already have lots of spears and archers. Especially if I want to buy some of the new elite infantry plastics.

Author:  Brian Mage [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

Angel wrote:
I still want to see the new models before I decide,


As usual Angel has it spot on!!! Although i am 90% confident that the new LSG's will look absolutley awesome
2 reasons for this
1. The last "Dedicated" LSG models were (attention creates perfection)
2. With each WHFB new plastic release the designers learn new tricks and can then make more exciting models... i.e spearelves vs new skaven stuff

Author:  pk-ng [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

PS my calculations are slightly wrong as I forgot re-rolls. We would kill more but I doubt we could survive any longer especially against horde groups!

Author:  Griffon Prince [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

I'm not entirely convinced that LSG will be the better choice. I plan on fielding a block of 25 and a block of 25 Spears and I'll see how it goes. The LSG cost still worries me. True, they will get plenty of shots with Fire in two ranks and the Salvo rule but try them against a Saurus block, Chaos Warriors, Phoenix Guard or an army that just doesn't care like Spampires (TM).
I've always favored the "more boots on the ground" approach to this game no matter what army I play. Heck, I field 3 HE core units in the current edition. I think the normal, humble High Elf spearwarrior will be the best troop choice but we'll all have to wait and see of course.
Great discussion here everyone, keep it going. :)

Author:  Bolt Thrower [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

For me it's about versatility. LSG provide that. If I can line up 10x2 and get off 20 shots the first couple of turns and then have a free reform to 5x4 in preparation for combat, I'll think the points are worth it. Multi-tasking units allow me to adjust on the fly and the LSG sound like they may fit the bill nicely in 8th.

Author:  WarpPhoenix [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

Thats a good point about the saurus blocks and such, but i answer your question with another question. Can the unit of spears do anything either?

Its all well and good saying LSG cant do this/what but you have to remember that if they cant do it, then neither will blocks of spears. The problem is the sea guard, if outclassed, can choose to shoot from a distance instead of risk their points. You may not get your points back because ALL of their army is elite but you wont give away the nice chunk of your points, which also counts towards a win. And who knows those 24 shots a turn might turn out usefull, instead of 28 in combat and the chance to die.

For me it was all about just not needing to field them, when I could get two units of archers instead for my core I wouldnt need to take them, or even if i needd 3 core i wouldnt take them because 3 archers would suit me down to the ground. But when there is a minimum amount of points to be spent, well I think I might just splash out a bit and use that unit, because frankly 50 archers would be just plain boring to play with/against, and you'd probably take up way more than your board edges worth with a unit that cant act as a combat unit and gets rolled by a stiff breeze.

Author:  Griffon Prince [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

It's the extra points the spears give you. I may or may not bring 25 spears, maybe I'll stick with 20 at first and see how it goes. I would be using the extra points for elites like Swordies for example since they will no doubt be shot to hell.
If you have a block of LSG, sure you can try to keep them out of combat but the enemy is more likely to come after them than if you had archers instead. A big unit of expensive elves with str 3 and a banner is a major target.

Author:  Aethyr [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

The one thing I have learnt over time (usually from my opponents Goblin archers!) is that throw enough shots at somthing and your going to do at least some damage. Those shots fired from LSG might be the ones that let those Swordmasters/WhiteLions/Other unit in a crucial fight only receive attacks from 6 guys instead of 10.

Example.

Swordmasters facing 20 Black Guard. LSG shoot and manage to knock off 4 guys. Swordies kill 10. Theyve got a full rank remaining and one behind. 6 strike back, do some damage, but not as much as it would have been.

I know archers could have done that, but archers cant hold their own in Close Combat like the Seaguard can - once again, throw enough shots, you get somthing.

Ill be taking them for T3 enemies like other Elves, Gobbs, Humans etc. Against harder enemies, T4, high armor etc ill most likely go minimum core ala 7th edition and spend my points on elites. Shame really, id like to push my 'steadfast citizen levy and Sea Guard' more often.

Author:  ilmrik II [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

I seem to remember corsairs being able to carry ranged weapons too ( admittedly no one ever does so they are probably not very good but still), couldn't this be a path DE in 8th might start exploring more?
if anyone knows the specifics of the upgrades feel free to comment :D

Author:  orka [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

ilmrik II wrote:
seem to remember corsairs being able to carry ranged weapons too ( admittedly no one ever does so they are probably not very good but still), couldn't this be a path DE in 8th might start exploring more?
if anyone knows the specifics of the upgrades feel free to comment :D


8" range isn't very good.

Author:  Tethlis [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

ilmrik II wrote:
I seem to remember corsairs being able to carry ranged weapons too ( admittedly no one ever does so they are probably not very good but still), couldn't this be a path DE in 8th might start exploring more?
if anyone knows the specifics of the upgrades feel free to comment :D


Handbows don't see much use because they don't make Corsairs very good at shooting OR combat. Most players would rather specialize, and get Spearmen for cheap static combat resolution, crossbowmen for dedicated shooting with light combat ability, or corsairs with Sea Serpent Standard for a lot of attacks.

I think WarpPhoenix's point is a good one. Anything that kill Lothern Sea Guard will also kill Spearmen, but at least you can treat LSG like a dedicated archer unit if you really don't want them fighting in combat. The actual units that you don't want LSG fighting are pretty few... They can handle enemy Core as long as they have some basic support, and enough ranks to hold up a big nasty opponent for a turn or two until help arrives. Especially if you play in a tournament or fixed-list environment, versatility is a good thing, and LSG certainly provide that.

Author:  pk-ng [ Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

i think WP and tethlis has hit the spot. LSG has the versatility that spearmen don't have and that's what you're paying for (essentially that 4 points). Depending on how many models you bring you can always deploy them in 2 ranks to maximise shooting then reform before a charge to maximise the amount of attacks back. One of the reasons why LSG weren't so popular in 7th ed was because of the cost of the unit and S3 attacks only. But now since we have to fill in a set amount of points it has potential to shine!

Author:  Valeli [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

Also, no one's mentioned that in 8th you can always wound on a six. That means a big unit of LSG all unloading on a large target within 24" for a turn or two would be pretty likely to do something useful. A lot of big monsters don't have the greatest armor saves. Or we can shoot and wound t7+ artilery (although they'd probably have to close in a bit first). Being able to take out these kinds of things before they have an impact on the game is huge. A big unit of archers could do it to, of course, and would be slightly better at it - but as people have said, archers are completely useless once the enemy gets to you. LSG can hold up reasonably well against several other core units for at least 1 turn, if not more.

And in all of these 1 v. 1 matchups against night goblins and such, you've got to take into account that the seaguard will get multiple turns of shooting before the combat even has a chance to begin, so the numbers will be a bit more favorable at that point (rerolls make those combats a bit more favorable as well).

I think LSG is going to be a fairly respectable core unit. Certainly better than it is currently. Not fantastic, and there'll be plenty of things that can run it over, but I'm thinking it will be able to proove useful in lots of situations.

Author:  Aethyr [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

Is that confirmed about wounding on sixes? Last I heard it was still up in the air...

Author:  Valeli [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

I remember the manager saying that among the other things the day he started talking about what was in the book recently (which was the same day other US managers in my area revealed their little copies of the rules, so it seemed legit enough to me). That said, I haven't seen the book yet myself, so I won't guarantee it's right.

Author:  Jhaantikaal [ Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High ElvesVs Dark Elves in 8th Edition

Yes, 6s to wound where before it was impossible is definitely in. Seen it with my own eyes :)

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