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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:30 am 
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How can High Elves ever beat Dark Elves

I’m so cheesed off by this, you wouldn’t believe it how much pain and agony with the hours I’ve spent trying to find the answer to the question, How can High Elves ever beat Dark Elves.

With every armies list of combo I come up with, my opponent has it covered. Not just covered, but well beat.

Examples:

Bolt Throwers:
Both the same.

Archers/Cross Bows.
DE are cheaper and get repeating x bows as well.

Magic:
I would say pretty even. Though that bloody magic item that makes any casting rolls with a double a miscast is nasty. Totally shuts down an offensive HE magic heavy list, and any one carrying the Book of Hoeth breaks down in tears.

Combat:
Eternal Hatred is evil. Re-roll rolls to hit every phase is extremely good, then to rub salt into the wounds Cold ones and Hydras can also re-roll. Assassins jumping out at you and striking first before your Elves, then killing most of your front rank. Tears are forming in my tear ducks. Then they have the cheek to carry a magic standard that makes the rest of the unit, say Witch Elves strike before the rest of your men, providing there are any left.

Characters:
I really like the History and background that comes with each and all Special Character, but field them in battle, and much do they fall short of expectations.

Tyrion, the un-killable, he’s lucky to kill 1 or 2 men a turn, woo woo.

Teclis, great at casting and dispelling, but don’t forget a couple of points for his cotton wool. This might save him from dieing if he drips on a loose stone.

Crone Helbron, only thing I can really say before I weep is “How many strength 10 attacks, lets have a look at your army book. Got to be cheating”. “Ow no, your not cheating, you’ve just got the hardest bitch in the Warhammer World. Where’s the tissues.

Eltharion, nice all round guy, can fight can cast spells, but do never very good. I’ve had this guy killed to even bow fire, on more than one occasion.

Monsters:
Great eagle, good march blocker, possible Mage suicide combat, that’s about it.
Hydra, far superior and gets hatred.
Dragons. Not very good against Elves! Those single bolt thrower shots can mince them on the fist turn.

So if there are any tactics, ideas that people use to good effect please divulge, it’s much appreciated.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:07 am 
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Try shooting.

2 or preferably 3 bolt shooters, magic bows, archers, Skeinsliver.

Skeinsliver gives you a good chance of getting the first turn which is really good against elves. We have the best magic bows in the game, Seafarer will put the pain on monsters and Reaver Bow on anything else.

Ring of Hotek is a big problem, especially for direct damage spells like Spirit of the Forge. You can try sniping the bearer with something like Rule of Burning Iron or Ring of Corin. You can also try Heavens lore to buff your shooting.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:12 am 
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I was (am?) in the same boat as you in thinking that every option we get, the DE get it better or cheaper. But them's the breaks. :) I've faced them a few times since then, and while it is tough to beat a fully tricked out DE list, against something balanced, we do have a shot. Some things I have found useful.

Shooting
Our core shooting outranges Dark Elves by 6 inches. Deploy six inches into your own deployment zone and smile as his RXB armed troops waste their first turn walking. As for RBT... Do any Dark Elf players even take these anymore? Around here it's all about the Hydra... even in 'friendly' lists. If he does have them, bonus. A great eagle eats it for breakfast. :) Counterbattery fire with a unit of LSG is also an option if he deploys on a hill.

Support
Sad but true. DE have way more and better support units than we do. Bloody core Fast Cav and Harpies. So take them down first. Even our piddly S3 shots are going to hurt, more so if combined with Curse of Arrow Attraction or Portent of Far. Happily, these units will usually range far up the flanks, away from potential Hotek bubble protection. If you can take out his support, you can engage his weaker units with your strong ones. The cauldron is a thornier problem, but if you can, take it down. It is a force multiplier of note.

Combat
DO NOT attempt to go toe to toe with a block of BG with a character. Just...don't. Unless you have a block of swordmasters with a specially tooled prince (nullstone), don't even contemplate it. In fact, sadly, any DE elite infantry (or even cavalry), with the ASF banner will walk all over any comparable unit we can throw up, because, shockingly enough, all DE elites have initiative 6 :roll: .
Not even including assassins or Cauldron support. Then things get really messy. So what do we do? Feed his dangerous units chaff while you gang up on his other units. ASF can only affect one unit, as can the cauldron, so hit where he isn't covered. Even spears will decimate a non-ASF DE infantry unit (barring perhaps BG). Assassins can make this hard though. :(
I tend to focus on taking out his shooting and cavalry, plus any other units that present themselves easilly, then play keep away with his main combat units.

Intel
More than most other opponents, you need to be paying a LOT of attention when fighting DE. Careful observation of where he places his characters, or how he moves, can reveal potential ring carriers, assassins in units etc.

Apart from that... Can't think of anything right now, but praying for good dice always helps. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:27 am 
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This thread just pissed me off. I hate the Druchii so much!
Theyre definately one of our toughest fights, in my oppinion, its the assassins who take the cake, I mean, Hydra's are big and nasty, but you know where they are, it sucks, but at least you can attempt to counter it. The assassins popping out everywhere and wiping that front rank out and the ASF banner on another elite really takes the wind out of our Always Strikes First.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:42 pm 
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The problem is, as mentioned before, that everything we can do the Dark Elves can do better, cheaper or even both. So we have to play a very careful game if we are to beat them.

One problem, which mostly affects our casters is the dread Ring of Hotek. Usually it is on a unit champion, either the Black Guard or Cold One Knights. The exact placement can usually be found by considering how he places his casters as they will, usually, be away from where the Ring is. Once you know just don't cast spells in that direction, focus on his flankers and magic that enhances your own troops instead. One trick that might work is to use the Surprise! effect of the Ring of Corin and try to eliminate the Ring of Hotek, but don't rely exclusively on it.

ASF Black Guard will chew through everything that we've got, with the possible exception of the Phoenix Guard since they have the same initiative value of 6. The Phoenix Guard is much more resilient than the Black Guard so if you've got them and the opponent has a ASF Black Guard unit consider engaging him with you Phoenix Guard. The preferable option is otherwise to use you Eagles to redirect him to unfavourable positions so that they are out of the game for a couple of turns, or more.

I don't have much experience with Hydras but RBTs, Dragons and magic are probably our best defence against them. They eat through our elves in close combat so try to avoid it as long as possible. Again Eagles are useful for redirecting them into suboptimal positions.

In general focus on eliminating his support troops with shooting and magic. Avoid the Black Guard or possibly engage them with Phoenix Guard, preferably with the Battle Standard nearby. You infantry will in most cases beat his but think of possible assassins before you charge them.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Against Hydras, even taking off a wound or two early is important...because S5 breath will kill whole blocks of your troops on its own. I've watched my infantry evaporate by the dozens under that template. Some fire magic is a good bet. One tactic I've tried is to use Burning Head to snipe the Hydra handlers, causing a panic test if you kill even one. Two is better, since its leadership is only 6. Fireball can sneak in a wound or two if you are lucky. Other than that... Regen can really screw over your bolt thrower's day, so I tend not to use them on Hydra (rather 6 shot those cold one knights or single bolt the chariots). Lathian mentioned a tactic in another thread of using a block of 20 seaguard shooting at the hydra. Since it's a large target, lots of hits and pray for sixes. Portent of Far should help too.
Problem is, once he is down to 2 wounds he can just charge it into combat and gobble some elves. It really is a hell of a problem to deal with for only 175 points.
Speaking of chariots. Watch out. They may be stupid, but they get 4 shots per turn, have WS5 (!), T5 and a 3+ save on top of scythed wheels, and if the BSB is riding one with the ASF banner (I've seen it happen), he can pretty much solo any unit we have if he can avoid a challenge. Really tough to bring down. :( Sigh. Did I mention it's a 105 points or so?
Dealing with champions with the Ring... RoBI seems to be a good option, and you can also use it on the Hydra. Cast on two dice and hope you don't get doubles.
Black Guard... I can honestly say I've never beaten a unit of these in combat. Whatever I throw at them seems to bounce, but maybe that's just my bad luck.:) I can see how the PG might hold them in place, but honestly, I'd rather lead them around (they still HAVE to overrun/pursue, even thought they are ItP), and pound on the rest of his army. If you're feeling bold, hitting a flank with something fast, then running, might draw them away from the main fray.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:14 pm 
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It seems like the only way DE can reliably beat HE in combat is with assassins. Even BG with ASF-banner can be dealt with(DP/PG for I6 and survivability, SM joined by Prince with Nullstone to remove the ASF), unless the assassin pops out. Assassins are just murderous, especially as they don't take hero slots and can be hidden in almost every combat unit+scouting Shades. And most things who can threaten assassins/ASF-banner/Pendant of Khaeleth (magic) are blocked by a damned 25-point item. And to make things worse their cheaper AND better shooting kills our support units/infantry elites/shooting (wich are the best we have against DE). The best moment in a game against DE is when a sorceress explodes ! =D>

Well, that was a relief. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:12 pm 
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orka wrote:
It seems like the only way DE can reliably beat HE in combat is with assassins?


#-o

wha?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:16 pm 
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there are 2 kinds of DE army: one with magic, and one without.

If they have spellcasters, your #1 aim should be to kill the casters, then you can kill the rest of the list without too much fuss
if they don't, replace the word casters with the words "ring of hotek"

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:39 pm 
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For my part, dark elves are very beatable, especially by high elves

Be it that high elves have a slightly older armybook than some of the stronger books like darkelves,vamps,deamons,lizard, they are still have the possiblilties to beat them quite good.

Especially dark elves, T3 like us, similar magics, armor save like us, all in all the worse infantry.

Magic items, ok they got insane item like Pok -- Hotekring and ASF banner i dont count in as cheesy -- we also have our good items. Armyrule like eternal hatred against us is good, ASF isnt THAT good but still its not bad, assasins and cauldron are a plus for em: All in all pretty even me


We all know its the combination of these items/units/lists which makes darkelves strong, btw we also got some cheesy lists

The real strongness of dark elves is that they can do superb on tournaments against everyone, they can do second best All-around list in my opinion, most ppl whine because of this.. and its understandable to a certain point, still can be beaten


IF u play them just for fun 1 or 2 battles high vs. dark elves.. than its very even. Shooting, chariots, Phoenix guards and Dragon princes with ini 6, our characters, magic, dragon, eagles can go toe to toe with their foes if used tactically in a right way.

ASF banner: just keep looking which units might it have.. black guard and Coks mostly what else.. shoot em down, redirect, ignore, easy. When im sure where the ring is and penetrates my front, i just smash the unit with 2 tiranocs, even when stubborn i kill alot of guys and finish them of with shooting or better finish them of with impact hits.

Hotekring: just use low dice spells, not the big ones or use spells which dont affect the ring. Another way is to make passive magics and buff up ur army so u dont come into the ring area that quickly/easily

Pok: well that item is kinda sad.. but still just dont play big guy and look for the master challenge, beat it by combat res

Hydra: combat res by phoenix guard for example, fire magic, stubborn lions by times, i never try to beat it with dragon princes.. only with battle bsb maybe

Magics: i never had a problem dispelling or blocking druchiis magic phase, dont forget to dispell power of darkness in the right moment

Shades: are bad when used as death star, which is a game abuse to me and most tournaments

Assasins: keep an eye out looking, there is no secure way to fight these with 100% success, but they cant win a battle either (only maybe if they slay ur dragon or somthing > thats where u have to keep ur eye open and play ur dragon in the right way)

Cauldron of blood: most ppl play black guys which is stubborn and not khainites, if so shoot them, +1 attack/killing blow is nice but again dont attack black guard/lord/hero super unit and so on..

Chariot: its stupid and slow.. forget it

Dragon: its not the star dragon, its hatred is fine but still looses to star dragon

Alltogether used is great but we also dont have just 1 unit sitting around on the table which they all attack at once.. Our plus is that we are faster, so we can divert and attack when we want.

Certain combos like unkillable lord, double hydra, cauldron etc list is real hard of course.. but like shade death star somthing above its kinda abuse, if u play a guy using this regulary, i would talk to him or never play him again. There is not much skill needed to beat someone with such a powerfull list playing, everyone playing warhammer and darkelves seriously will know this.

When playing a friend which collects dark elves we have Pok a 3+ ward save so he cant just bind a star dragon to death for example with a lord on pegasus/cold one/etc


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:06 am 
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Yeay, another HE vs DE thread!

Elven Lord wrote:
Archers/Cross Bows.
DE are cheaper and get repeating x bows as well.


It's a reknown fact that the HE Archers are quite sucky. Don't blame DE for this.
HE do have a 6" range over the RxB's though - use this to your advantage.

Quote:
Magic:
I would say pretty even. Though that bloody magic item that makes any casting rolls with a double a miscast is nasty. Totally shuts down an offensive HE magic heavy list, and any one carrying the Book of Hoeth breaks down in tears.


The Ring of Hotek (wich is the item that causes the misscasts) is usually placed on a BG or CoK Champion. Either way, I've seen HE mages with the lore of Metal sniping the wearer with the spell Rule of Burning Iron (I think thats the one - the Nr.1 spell in Metall.) Anyway, it's fairly safe to use 2 dices on this. Other than that stay out of the 12" bubble - Not as easy as it sounds, I know.

Quote:
Combat:
Eternal Hatred is evil. Re-roll rolls to hit every phase is extremely good, then to rub salt into the wounds Cold ones and Hydras can also re-roll. Assassins jumping out at you and striking first before your Elves, then killing most of your front rank. Tears are forming in my tear ducks


DE already have Hatred. Eternal Hatred is nearly useless vs High Elves since most fighting is over in one turn of combat anyway. (T3 units attacking other T3 units with S4+ weaponry? Yes this is gonna get bloody!)

On the other Hand, HE do have ASF - and ASF do litteraly cut through DE like there's no tomorrow. DE need either their ASF banner (usually found on Black Guard) and/or Assassins to have even a chance to beat HE in close combat.
Ontop of that HE have Valour of Ages wich really shouldn't be frowned upon - it's a great rule when fighting DE.

Quote:
Then they have the cheek to carry a magic standard that makes the rest of the unit, say Witch Elves strike before the rest of your men, providing there are any left.


Witch Elves should either be shot to death by archers (they are T3 no save) or charged with Dragon Princes. They are S3 afterall (although they can take a banner wich grants them armour piercing attacks - still a S3 save though.) In addition you both have I6, so if the witch elves have the ASFbanner (meaning that none of the other units in the DE armý got it) you roll who attacks first - and trust me, if the Dragon princes get to go first - there's no witch elves left.
ALSO, the DE player needs a Death Hag BSB (T3 no save) in the Witch Elf unit in order to even give the witches ASF - thats suddenly alot of points invested in a bunch of T3 modells without any save.

Quote:
Tyrion, the un-killable, he’s lucky to kill 1 or 2 men a turn, woo woo.


Unkillable? check
ASF with high initiative? check

Few attacks? Well yes, check. So be sure to put him where his attacks are of most use - Might I suggest against a Hydra/Dragon (no saves) or against the DE general?

Quote:
Teclis, great at casting and dispelling, but don’t forget a couple of points for his cotton wool. This might save him from dieing if he drips on a loose stone.


Teclis is great as always - just dont forget to either stay away from the Ring of Hotek or snipe the wearer with the Metall-spell.

Quote:
Crone Helbron, only thing I can really say before I weep is “How many strength 10 attacks, lets have a look at your army book. Got to be cheating”. “Ow no, your not cheating, you’ve just got the hardest bitch in the Warhammer World. Where’s the tissues.


Crone Hellebron is a monster in close combat, I'll give you that - But she's also 350 points (at least) of T3 and without any save of any kind. She also doesn't even have ASF unless she's in a unit with the ASFbanner.

Quote:
Eltharion, nice all round guy, can fight can cast spells, but do never very good. I’ve had this guy killed to even bow fire, on more than one occasion.


Eltharion isn't really that good against Dark Elves, but then again - He's not really that good against anything. He's a decent allround characther for fluffy battles, nothing else. (I used him against Gromm - once.)

Quote:
Great eagle, good march blocker, possible Mage suicide combat, that’s about it.


If you want to piss the DE player of, here's a tip. If he has a unit of Cold Ones, try and flank them with the Eagle (wich pref. still has 3 wounds left.) The Eagle will most likely loose combat and break, however since DE got hatred, the Cold Ones has to pursuse you = Suddenly the knights run 3D6" in the wrong direction and expose their flank to your army. Dragon Princes flanking Cold Ones = Dead Cold Ones.
There's nothing more satisfying vs DE than to use their own Hatred against them.

Quote:
Hydra, far superior and gets hatred.


A Hydra is nasty, two Hydras are even worse. It's true that HE don\t got much to put up against them.
Magic, Stardragons and single-bolt RTBs is your best bet.

Quote:
Dragons. Not very good against Elves! Those single bolt thrower shots can mince them on the fist turn.


Star Dragons are always (almost) a good investion, and they certainly are vs DE. Stardragons eat both Black Dragons and Hydras without that much of a hassle. Its true that RBTs can ruin your day, but on the other hand, if the DE brings a Black Dragon, your RBTs can ruin his day. It also takes on average 12 single bolt shots to kill a Stardragon, and if your Stardragon hasn't hit the DE line before that, you deserve to loose it.

Happy hunting.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:41 am 
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Another point is. 12 RBT shots at a RBT should be sufficient to kill the RBT crew... Ive done it with 6 shots only but I think i got lucky!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:29 am 
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Lore of Heavens' Comet spell can get around the RoH because of its wording. You can use Thunderbolt on anything on the table so as long as your mage is far enough away from the Ring, he can cast that with no problem.
It's important to note that some BG units have a character in them with MR 2 so the Lore of Metal sniper doesn't always work unfortunately.
I played Dark Elves for a long time and I actually just parted with them a few months ago. My advice when battling our hated kin is this;
1)Shoot them as much as you possibly can. Don't get into combat until you have softened them up. Our archers and LSG shine against the Druuchii.
2) Don't fight Black Guard. Ever. lol. Ignore them by focusing on the rest of his army. Take out the small support units like Dark Riders and Harpies. I know about the trick where you take a mounted Prince with Null Stone and put him up against BGs (to nullify their banner and the Ring) but Dark Elf players will see this coming and put an assassin in the unit to kill off your lord.
3) Put your casters on the flanks. If you don't go the Heavens route, deploy your mages where the Ring can't reach them.
4) Don't bother shooting the Cauldron. I swear, that thing makes all of its 4+ ward saves everytime I target it. I would try to focus on other units before they get to me. The Cauldron is a tough cookie to deal with and while it would be great to get rid of it ASAP, it's risky sending all of your shots at it in the first few turns when there are other threats on the table.


Goodluck on the field of battle.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:46 am 
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Pskyrunner wrote:

Shades: are bad when used as death star, which is a game abuse to me and most tournaments



What's death Star, obviously not in referance to Star Wars me is thinking


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:48 am 
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Minsc wrote:

Happy hunting.


Thanks Minsc for all your comments and insight, thanks to everyone.

I've got some very good ideas now.

One things that is becoming very clear though, it seems we have to set up our army to beat the DE.
While they can bring about a balanced list and still be very competative.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:50 am 
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Elven Lord wrote:
Pskyrunner wrote:

Shades: are bad when used as death star, which is a game abuse to me and most tournaments



What's death Star, obviously not in referance to Star Wars me is thinking

A death star is a big powerful unit with powerful characters in it. Typically they are very expensive and hit really hard and are best dealt with by avoiding them. The shade star (death star with shades) is almost impossible to avoid since it's skirmishing.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:56 am 
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Quote:
While they can bring about a balanced list and still be very competative.


Yes and No.

Most balanced DE lists usually have max 1 Assassin, if even anyone at all. (I usually don't bring Assassins).
That leaves his ASFing Black Guard (they are however a common sight in most lists) the only of his units who can go toe-to-toe with High Elves, all of your other infantry > his infantry.

That said, competetive DE lists usually are very good, but they're not as good as the DE players are used to when up against HE - thanks to ASF. So basicly DE needs to tailor their list against HE just about as much as HE needs to tailor their list against DE.

Quote:
You can use Thunderbolt on anything on the table so as long as your mage is far enough away from the Ring, he can cast that with no problem.


Uranon's Thunderbolt (and forked lughtning) still need to stay away from the 12" bubble. The unlimited range helps, but they still target specific units just like any other magic missile.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:11 am 
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I beg to differ on the whole our infantry > their infantry. I've found that both witch elves and corsairs can be a nasty surprise to either of our low-attack specials (Lions, PG). The sheer volume of attacks they push out is often enough to offset the ASF kills we get. Obviously, vs. (sometimes) Spears or SMs, their infantry without ASF (barring BG) is toast. Something I've faced myself is a unit of witch elves, 7 wide, with the blessing from the cauldron. 4 poisoned attacks per model. Ouch. Thank goodness they're frenzied. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:24 pm 
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So against the unit I see the DE player:

28 strong Black Guard inc BSB with ASF banner, Champion with Ring of Hotec, Crone Hellebron and magic resistance 2

You can't beat this unit only avoid it.

Mop up the rest of his army and go for table quarters.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:22 pm 
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Elven Lord wrote:
While they can bring about a balanced list and still be very competative.


I agree with this. There are several DE builds which can work at the highest level. The same is true of the other top books of course.

Elven Lord wrote:
You can't beat this unit only avoid it


Shoot it to death!

(Easier said than done, I know....)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:18 pm 
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Elven Lord wrote:
So against the unit I see the DE player:

28 strong Black Guard inc BSB with ASF banner, Champion with Ring of Hotec, Crone Hellebron and magic resistance 2

You can't beat this unit only avoid it.

Mop up the rest of his army and go for table quarters.


Except that BG are max 20, iirc. The BSB doesn't have to have the ASF banner -- it can be on the unit.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:16 am 
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A lot of you guys seem to be giving up in the planning stages of the game before you've even deployed... do you only expect to win when you've got favorable conditions from the outset? :)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:34 am 
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Elven Lord wrote:
So against the unit I see the DE player:

28 strong Black Guard inc BSB with ASF banner, Champion with Ring of Hotec, Crone Hellebron and magic resistance 2

You can't beat this unit only avoid it.

Mop up the rest of his army and go for table quarters.



20 max like wilding said

Most of us im pretty sure, dont play special characters.. it gives an unbalancing to every battle with every army.. some are super powerfull some are real bad.. i would suggest u try some matches without them (tho high elves have very good special chrs)

Of course u can still beat this unit.. just dont attack with only one unit, attack them in flank &front crush them like said additionally with chariots etc.. and before do magic and shooting .. its really not this "unbeatable" unit

And i agree with the above poster.. u have to plan some time before winning against the high tier armybooks.. but its worth the time because u learn that they arnt unbeatable at all. At least by highelves!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:56 pm 
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Wildling04 wrote:

Except that BG are max 20, iirc. The BSB doesn't have to have the ASF banner -- it can be on the unit.


He also has that item that means the unit can't be outnumbered or get bonuses from attacking in flank or rear.

I'm thinking of fielding archers sea guard, heros with both Reaver Banner and Bow of Seafarer and max out on RBT's

Has anyone gone down this route before, think this may have some sucess against the Dark Elves...


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:28 pm 
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Quote:
He also has that item that means the unit can't be outnumbered or get bonuses from attacking in flank or rear.


Only Witch Elves and Death Hags can have this. (Hagbrew afaik).

I have never seen a Death Hag in a unit of Black Guard just for the reason of giving them this benefit, have you?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:06 am 
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Elven Lord wrote:
Has anyone gone down this route before, think this may have some sucess against the Dark Elves...
..


Seredain used to use 3xRBT, Reaver Bow, 10 Archers, Skeinsliver, with success.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:11 am 
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Minsc wrote:
Quote:
He also has that item that means the unit can't be outnumbered or get bonuses from attacking in flank or rear.


Only Witch Elves and Death Hags can have this. (Hagbrew afaik).

I have never seen a Death Hag in a unit of Black Guard just for the reason of giving them this benefit, have you?


I've not at least, nor would I ever do that. Death hags are in my book battle standard bearers who bring ASF to your other units. The downside of what she does it that she's pretty easy to snipe. Mine was "sniped" by a chariot last tournament I was to (hatred can do wonders against the dark elves for positioning them).
-Still won that battle, but I had a bit of luck and my army composition was well rounded to deal with his list. On the other hand, he beat up the demons in the tournament that I got myself beat up by.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:31 am 
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Plus she's frenzied so she has to come out and play

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:03 am 
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I like the mass shooting, though I havnt yet fought the Druchii. I know the Regen on a hydra is a pain, but I guess all the shooting should force the saves and your bound to get lucky, right?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:37 am 
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At least if you shoot some wounds off the Hydra you nerf the breath weapon.

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