Inexpensive Archmage

[mmirch54]

Has anyone tried an Archmage at Level 3 w/ Staff of Sorcery or Annulian Crystal and two or three dispel scrolls? It seems like it could be very effective (at between 305 and 325 points) and lasting Magic defense with a middling to weak offensive phase. I think the focus would be putting two dice on a single support spell (Curse of Arrow or Shield of Saphery probably) and throwing three dice at Drain Magic each phase. I would also have either +2 to dispel or 5 dispel dice (-1 to the opponent).

Thoughts?

[madelmo]

unfortunately that means you're sacrificing your only lord slot to be a glorified caddy. You will then have neither a combat strong general or a necessarily effective magic phase. high elves are all about max/min and i guess it just feels that this doesn't fit that usual descrption.

i like the outside-the-box thinking, i just feel there are better uses for the lord slot than that

[WarpPhoenix]

An archmage could be level 4 with only a silver wand and he would still be effective, but you would need some scrolls somewhere, so any lesser mages would be forced to be scroll takers. I believe this would be the only build that would keep an archmages effectiveness and keep him cheap. Costing only 370 alltogethher

[Musashi]

35 points for an extra PD is a solid investment, and if you have only one Lord choice, you want to ensure that he has an effect on the game.

[mmirch54]

Ok, so the concensus is that putting him up to the 340-360 range is still cost-effective.

As for the combat, the plan is to pair him with 3 Nobles, kitted as necessary to the list (I have a Cav-heavy list and a combined infantry/chariot list). The nobles tend towards one Radiant Gem of Hoeth, one BSB, and one Reaver Bow.

[Cythis]

It depends on the environment I guess? I could see running a lord with lvl 4 silver wand and 1 or 2x scrolls and still getting some mileage out of him/her. What you might want to ask is if your other characters are really that necessary. Do you need that support hero or caster? is there a unit you could take, buff, etc that might be more valuable that said hero? In trying to trim points for more of an army myself I have found that toning down on character number and not equipment works pretty well. I mean you still want your characters to be good and dependable at what they do or why even take them?

I started by writing down all of the troops I was interested in taking, 2x 10 archers, some spears, 2x 14 swords, 2x tiranocs, 2x Dps, 3x RBTs, 1x eagle
A lot of troops for a high elf force. I found that with those troops I had about 530 points left which was enough for a lvl 4(gives me magic D and a bit of dependable magic offense, very useful if enemy mages are killed), and a bsb of some variety. The bsb effect is huge and Cannot be replaced by troops alone. Magic defense can to an extent be achieved by weight of numbers but it is nice to be able to keep a few specific spells from going off. Magic offense is clearly not possible without the archmage.
Well with only 4 magic lvls you probably will not be raining destruction on your opponent but a if you can cast, say 3 intimidating spells a turn, 2, 3, 3 or 2, 2, 4 then your 5 dice 2 scrolls magic d will have to pop a scroll to stop everything, allowing you to get some nice spells through by about turn 3 at worst (baring miscast of course ). This will not work if the opponent can effectively ignore 1 or more of your spells since then your more powerful spells will be diced and not scrolled. For this reason I chose seer, as you have proposed, as it means the offensive phase will dependably pressure a medium magic defense. I could see just taking seer and 1 or 2 scrolls if you really want to fit in some extra troops, but I would probably kit the bsb out with at least 40 pnts of items. Myself I throw in another scroll and a support item (like sacred incense or dragonhorn), or Ring of fury, but it does tend to make the points somewhat tight.
Well those are my thoughts on trying to minimize points spent on heroes anyways.

[Lord Anathir]

lvl4 with a wand and sorcery and throw 4/5 dice at big spells. Your opponent will burn scrolls first but then hes gotta start taking risk and rolling dd.

[SpellArcher]

Magic offense is clearly not possible without the archmage.

With the other tools we have (Seerstaff, Banner of Sorcery) I disagree.

I chose seer

The best way to do it IMHO. PapaElf's build was Seerstaff, 3 scrolls, Sorcery on a level 3, which looks optimal to me.

[Cythis]

Magic offense is clearly not possible without the archmage.

With the other tools we have (Seerstaff, Banner of Sorcery) I disagree.

Oh yeah this isn't quite what I meant, I sort of meant within the constraints of 530 points but didn't really make that clear, like at all .
Other phases tend to be more expensive due to requiring 3 or four characters. I came up with a fairly cheap 3 character magic phase with no archmage
Prince, Ring of Fury
Bsb, radient gem
LvL 2 Seer, Scroll.
With added Combat gear on the prince it comes to about 616 which is pretty reasonable. You get the added combat proficiency plus LD 10 and have comprable offensive power to the single lvl 4 build.

[geoguswrek]

Similar numbers of dice and spells isn't the same amount of offense. The archmage lets you throw lots of dice at one spell and also gives you more chance of getting one spell you want (2 low level wizards are unlikely to get beast cowers without the seerstaff, the lord almost certainly will)

[SpellArcher]

Prince, Ring of Fury
Bsb, radient gem
LvL 2 Seer, Scroll.

This looks oddly familiar to me...

Similar numbers of dice and spells isn't the same amount of offense. The archmage lets you throw lots of dice at one spell and also gives you more chance of getting one spell you want (2 low level wizards are unlikely to get beast cowers without the seerstaff, the lord almost certainly will)

I'm not convinced about the 2x4 phase or similar without the Book. I think you really need three spells off. Surely one Lvl2 is always going to take the Seerstaff? Of course the Archmage does let you do the 2-character build, which is cheaper but Ld10 and a hitty character are worth having IMHO.

[Lord Anathir]

actually the 2x4 phase isnt so bad. Its very different kind of magic phase then taking multiple mages. Even 5 dice for a big spell and 3 dice magic missile works. When you throw 5 dice you either miscast, IF, call a scroll or make your opponent sweat a bit and try to dispel it with 5+. If you chose the right lore and its going to hurt him badly you can guarantee hes going to be burning scrolls early.

[SpellArcher]

Say the other guy has five dice and three scrolls. Surely he dices the 3-die spell and scrolls the other? Maybe you IF, great but even more chance of a miscast and likely it's turn five at least before you burn through the scrolls. Plus that single Archmage really holds the 2-character build together (any magic, Ld9, lots of VP's if he dies), you can't afford to lose him.

What am I missing here?

[dabber]

At 3000+ points, I think the quint-scroll caddy is great. Archmage with 5 scrolls. Staff of Sorcery is definitely not helpful, as you don't have enough dice. Annulian Crystal is slightly better, but 5 dispel is not an easy number to use. (6 is 4 and 2, which is easier to use in my experience). 5 scrolls mean you can double scroll the first two turns, which will stop all but the most maxed out magic phases.

I would not try it at 2000 pts. I would rather take a pair of hero scroll caddies and a Star Dragon.

[geoguswrek]

The 5,3 or 4,4 phase isn't optimal, but for less than 400 points, if i get 1 spell off against a magic heavy opponent (and because i'm casting big spells this spell will kill most of a unit) then the mage has done his job anyway (he's mainly there as magic defence) which 2 level 2's wouldn't have done.
against light magic opponents you can spam out 3 spells a turns and stll have the same effect as the 2 level 2 phase.

[Palinux]

Recently played with a Archmage, lvl 4, 2xdispel scrolls, silver wand, ring of fury, steed plus banner of sorcery. We played under ETC restriction, but the 4,4,RoF or 4,5 magic phase worked very well. Even with 3,4,RoF this worked quite well. Played against TK and Skaven, rolling High Magic with Vauls and Flames both times. These two spell worked very well, taking scrolls at first, and then very hard to dispel. But I guess you need two hard spells to cast every turn to justify this build.